Hey D3, it's time to make more of our rosters useful!

pheregas

entrailbucket said:

You guys are both (unintentionally?) making my argument for me.  If you have most of the 5* championed, why would you want to keep using the same two for every event?  With rotating +100 level 5* buffs, you'd get a level 550 monster basically every week.  Wouldn't that be more fun that just using the same two guys over and over again?

And if a 450 Thor is better than a 470 Goblin, isn't that a problem to be corrected?  Weekly rotating buffs would mean that's no longer the case, at least during the weeks when Goblin is buffed.  What about some player who managed to champion Goblin but no other 5*?  Is he just screwed forever?  How is that ok?  Why even have him in tokens if you're never meant to use him?

It really depends on what you want out of it.  If playing with a level 550 monster is what you are looking for, PVE may be the better place for you as you get a 90 level 5* boost.  In the current Venom Bomb PVE, I've never once launched one of Daredevil's Powers because his match damage is so huge combined with those strike tiles.  And in PVE, if you don't have a champed character, it's still easily playable with the plethora of characters that you do have.  I still very much enjoy PVE and especially much more than PVP (but you got to play both for the extra rewards).

And while power creep is a problem, boosting is not the solution.  I agree that using the same two characters over and over is boring.  It's one of the detriments to PVP.  But PVP is all about getting out there and winning as quickly as possible and once high enough, shielding and hopping to achieve your target score.  It's all clock based.  Getting one or two 550 monsters would only make the matches much longer because of the massive hit points you'd have to chew through (and subsequently leaves you open to be attacked more).  Buffs make the imbalance between the haves and the have-nots _worse_.  Can you image taking your fun new super-buffed 550 Goblin into a fight only to see the 650 Goblin walk in?

My favorite PVPs are when a weird synergy exists between underused characters.  It's why I am a little more excited with 4* PVP becoming more frequent.  Boosted 4s are often better than many 5s and usually more fun to play.  If anything deserves a boost, it's a much bigger one to the 3s to make them not just the first non-Gambit target in a fight.  If I have time, I'll start PVP with two boosted 4s.  Yeah, you end up getting hit, but if you wait 12 hours, each of those retals are worth some points.  

To one of your last points about ineffective characters...  Yes, that is an issue.  One of my first champed 5s was Iron Man.  He only ever gets used now as an essential and even then if no other choice (I used boosted Hulkbuster instead of IM46 for Ultron).  Character rebalance to fix power creep should be a priority by the devs.  So should having a feeder for every single classic 5.  But it doesn't matter how much we keep saying this, it is ultimately out of our hands and up to the dev team.

If anything, champing everyone, regardless of usefulness, is still the best way to maximize rewards.

TLDR:  You be you.  Play the playstyle that works best for you and makes the game more enjoyable, but boosting is not the answer to under leveled/poorly conceived characters.

entrailbucket

pheregas said:

My favorite PVPs are when a weird synergy exists between underused characters.  It's why I am a little more excited with 4* PVP becoming more frequent.  Boosted 4s are often better than many 5s and usually more fun to play.  If anything deserves a boost, it's a much bigger one to the 3s to make them not just the first non-Gambit target in a fight.  If I have time, I'll start PVP with two boosted 4s.  Yeah, you end up getting hit, but if you wait 12 hours, each of those retals are worth some points.  

To one of your last points about ineffective characters...  Yes, that is an issue.  One of my first champed 5s was Iron Man.  He only ever gets used now as an essential and even then if no other choice (I used boosted Hulkbuster instead of IM46 for Ultron).  Character rebalance to fix power creep should be a priority by the devs.  So should having a feeder for every single classic 5.  But it doesn't matter how much we keep saying this, it is ultimately out of our hands and up to the dev team.

If anything, champing everyone, regardless of usefulness, is still the best way to maximize rewards.

TLDR:  You be you.  Play the playstyle that works best for you and makes the game more enjoyable, but boosting is not the answer to under leveled/poorly conceived characters.

I use a lot of 4* too.  I have most of them at 370, and most of them are better when boosted than the 450ish 5* that people tend to use.  But it's the boost that makes them that way.  I don't know how long you've been around, but in the days before the 4* boost rotation happened, basically every team was Hulkbuster + Iron Fist, or Hulkbuster + Teen Jean, after she was released.  The boosts fixed all that, except then they basically created the same problem in the 5* tier.

I don't know if 5* weekly boosts are the most correct answer to increase diversity, necessarily.  Fixing the "bad" 5* would certainly be preferable, but do you really think they'll ever do that?  It's a ton of effort, and there's a nonzero risk that they go to far (like they did with X-Force Wolverine when he went from useless to amazing and then broke the game). 

Weekly boosts are much, much easier than rebalancing an entire tier, and basically have the same effect.  In addition, they prevent stuff like Gambit from getting out of control.  If Gambit was only the best character for 1 week every few months, they probably wouldn't even need to nerf him (I'm lying, they still would, but it'd be a lot more bearable).

pheregas

I’ve been around forever dude.

Totally agree with you about 4* boosts. I was referring entirely to 5* boosts.

I miss the aTJ/Switch, Fistbuster days. It’s always fun to have synergy with different tiers.

HoundofShadow

More 5* boost will affect the lower tier (1-3).

DeNappa

Straycat said:

DeNappa said:

#BringBackHeroics

No. Besides Pvp is basically already like Heroics since unboosted 4*s are a huge target. So then you are stuck trying to make noncohesive teams work out of the limited roster. Expanding the boosted list would be making it less likely to use the lower tier 4*s.

But with the recent changes to dilution, Gambit, and wins based PVP and the huge roster of 4*s I think its time to add more boosted characters. 

I think you misunderestimate the amount of people that will still fall back on their default clear team even if there's more characters boosted. 

ViralCore

DeNappa said:

Straycat said:

DeNappa said:

#BringBackHeroics

No. Besides Pvp is basically already like Heroics since unboosted 4*s are a huge target. So then you are stuck trying to make noncohesive teams work out of the limited roster. Expanding the boosted list would be making it less likely to use the lower tier 4*s.

But with the recent changes to dilution, Gambit, and wins based PVP and the huge roster of 4*s I think its time to add more boosted characters. 

I think you misunderestimate the amount of people that will still fall back on their default clear team even if there's more characters boosted. 

If people prefer to use their 5*s over the buffed 4*s, that's great, go ahead, do it; but at least more buffed 4*s gives transitioning players more options and variety for those of us want to play the game as intended.

Ptahhotep

It would require the addition of 5* events to PVP but blocking the use of characters that are higher tier than the featured character should result in more varied teams.

entrailbucket

Ptahhotep said:

It would require the addition of 5* events to PVP but blocking the use of characters that are higher tier than the featured character should result in more varied teams.

Some people paid tens of thousands of dollars for their 5* though, you can't just completely lock them out.

JHawkInc

entrailbucket said:

Ptahhotep said:

It would require the addition of 5* events to PVP but blocking the use of characters that are higher tier than the featured character should result in more varied teams.

Some people paid tens of thousands of dollars for their 5* though, you can't just completely lock them out.

Bring back Heroic events, de-scale 5*s to be the level of 4*s? Or upscale 1's-4's by a tier, so 4's are as strong as 5's?

The end goal being to make 4's and 5's equivalent (or at least as equivalent as they can be) so people have more options choosing between them. So a Parker/Miles/Gwen team doesn't suffer from being two 4's and a 5 instead of three 5's, for example.

Straycat

JHawkInc said:

entrailbucket said:

Ptahhotep said:

It would require the addition of 5* events to PVP but blocking the use of characters that are higher tier than the featured character should result in more varied teams.

Some people paid tens of thousands of dollars for their 5* though, you can't just completely lock them out.

Bring back Heroic events, de-scale 5*s to be the level of 4*s? Or upscale 1's-4's by a tier, so 4's are as strong as 5's?

The end goal being to make 4's and 5's equivalent (or at least as equivalent as they can be) so people have more options choosing between them. So a Parker/Miles/Gwen team doesn't suffer from being two 4's and a 5 instead of three 5's, for example.

Upscale the 4*s so they are as strong as 5*s? As in boost them? I mean, sure you cover more ground by scaling the 5*s back, but you could boost more 4*s to get a similar effect. Which is what the OP was asking.

entrailbucket

You can't make 4* as strong as 5*...why would people ever pay for 5* then?  What would be the point of getting them?

JHawkInc

Straycat said:

JHawkInc said:

entrailbucket said:

Ptahhotep said:

It would require the addition of 5* events to PVP but blocking the use of characters that are higher tier than the featured character should result in more varied teams.

Some people paid tens of thousands of dollars for their 5* though, you can't just completely lock them out.

Bring back Heroic events, de-scale 5*s to be the level of 4*s? Or upscale 1's-4's by a tier, so 4's are as strong as 5's?

The end goal being to make 4's and 5's equivalent (or at least as equivalent as they can be) so people have more options choosing between them. So a Parker/Miles/Gwen team doesn't suffer from being two 4's and a 5 instead of three 5's, for example.

Upscale the 4*s so they are as strong as 5*s? As in boost them? I mean, sure you cover more ground by scaling the 5*s back, but you could boost more 4*s to get a similar effect. Which is what the OP was asking.

Yeah, I said "upscale" but the game term would be boost. Except I'm talking about doing it just for the Heroic events, and doing it for ALL of the available characters, and doing it to a more significant degree. Just boosting more 4's isn't going to change the fact that 5's overshadow them, and it isn't going to change some combos (like boosting R&G encourages people to run a Guardian with them for the bonus strike tile damage even if that Guardian isn't boosted as well).

Going with the Heroic format forces people to use different combos than they might normally, and leveling out the playing field between 4's and 5's for those events ensures that 5* players get to benefit from it as well. (you could also theoretically do something like a Balance of Power style scaling for a Heroic, which would let people use under-covered characters as well, so a character they haven't gotten around to champing, or one that's stuck at 11 or 12 covers, becomes a useful tool for one event, instead of being useless until you get that final cover)

entrailbucket said:

You can't make 4* as strong as 5*...why would people ever pay for 5* then?  What would be the point of getting them?

Well, this would only apply to Heroic events, so we're talking something that would happen once every other month or so if they were dropped into normal rotation, not an overhaul to the entire game that devalues 5's across the board. An occasional deviation from the existing system, not a change to the status quo.

entrailbucket

Oh that's fine, that would be fun!

I thought this was about PvP though.  PvE is pretty ok on the diversity front, with the featured 5*.

Straycat

JHawkInc said:

Straycat said:

JHawkInc said:

Bring back Heroic events, de-scale 5*s to be the level of 4*s? Or upscale 1's-4's by a tier, so 4's are as strong as 5's?

The end goal being to make 4's and 5's equivalent (or at least as equivalent as they can be) so people have more options choosing between them. So a Parker/Miles/Gwen team doesn't suffer from being two 4's and a 5 instead of three 5's, for example.

Upscale the 4*s so they are as strong as 5*s? As in boost them? I mean, sure you cover more ground by scaling the 5*s back, but you could boost more 4*s to get a similar effect. Which is what the OP was asking.

Yeah, I said "upscale" but the game term would be boost. Except I'm talking about doing it just for the Heroic events, and doing it for ALL of the available characters, and doing it to a more significant degree. Just boosting more 4's isn't going to change the fact that 5's overshadow them, and it isn't going to change some combos (like boosting R&G encourages people to run a Guardian with them for the bonus strike tile damage even if that Guardian isn't boosted as well).

Going with the Heroic format forces people to use different combos than they might normally, and leveling out the playing field between 4's and 5's for those events ensures that 5* players get to benefit from it as well. (you could also theoretically do something like a Balance of Power style scaling for a Heroic, which would let people use under-covered characters as well, so a character they haven't gotten around to champing, or one that's stuck at 11 or 12 covers, becomes a useful tool for one event, instead of being useless until you get that final cover)

In PVE, that Parker, Miles, Gwen team would hardly suffer. Parker tanks, Gwen can be respecced to max healer, Miles max ap gen, and they are set to stunlock and destroy any pve team. In PVP, that team would get targeted for having non boosted 4*s, which would be helped by adding more boosted 4*s.

Besides, that team makes sense, something you are trying to get away from with Heroics. You want people to find a way to make Elektra, Kraven, and Drax to work, when some teams just don't make sense together.

Heroics are like a basketball player that says "I don't practice with my left, except that time I broke my arm. Someone please break my arm!" Don't we all hate the loaner nodes that force random teams together? Why do we like Heroics then?

Bowgentle

Straycat said:

JHawkInc said:

Straycat said:

JHawkInc said:

Bring back Heroic events, de-scale 5*s to be the level of 4*s? Or upscale 1's-4's by a tier, so 4's are as strong as 5's?

The end goal being to make 4's and 5's equivalent (or at least as equivalent as they can be) so people have more options choosing between them. So a Parker/Miles/Gwen team doesn't suffer from being two 4's and a 5 instead of three 5's, for example.

Upscale the 4*s so they are as strong as 5*s? As in boost them? I mean, sure you cover more ground by scaling the 5*s back, but you could boost more 4*s to get a similar effect. Which is what the OP was asking.

Yeah, I said "upscale" but the game term would be boost. Except I'm talking about doing it just for the Heroic events, and doing it for ALL of the available characters, and doing it to a more significant degree. Just boosting more 4's isn't going to change the fact that 5's overshadow them, and it isn't going to change some combos (like boosting R&G encourages people to run a Guardian with them for the bonus strike tile damage even if that Guardian isn't boosted as well).

Going with the Heroic format forces people to use different combos than they might normally, and leveling out the playing field between 4's and 5's for those events ensures that 5* players get to benefit from it as well. (you could also theoretically do something like a Balance of Power style scaling for a Heroic, which would let people use under-covered characters as well, so a character they haven't gotten around to champing, or one that's stuck at 11 or 12 covers, becomes a useful tool for one event, instead of being useless until you get that final cover)

In PVE, that Parker, Miles, Gwen team would hardly suffer. Parker tanks, Gwen can be respecced to max healer, Miles max ap gen, and they are set to stunlock and destroy any pve team. In PVP, that team would get targeted for having non boosted 4*s, which would be helped by adding more boosted 4*s.

Besides, that team makes sense, something you are trying to get away from with Heroics. You want people to find a way to make Elektra, Kraven, and Drax to work, when some teams just don't make sense together.

Heroics are like a basketball player that says "I don't practice with my left, except that time I broke my arm. Someone please break my arm!" Don't we all hate the loaner nodes that force random teams together? Why do we like Heroics then?

Because they reward you for having ALL 4s at high levels.
Who cares who else is boosted when you have the 4* at 360+.

entrailbucket

Most of us vets have fond memories of heroics because during the time we still had them, PvE scaled to your roster, so every single fight we had was against lvl400+ enemies (while 2* or 3* players were fighting lvl10 enemies or something, for the same rewards as us). 

Heroics were a nice break because even though we couldn't use our best characters, there was a significant decrease in scaling that made the whole thing feel nicer.

With static scaling in place that makes every fight in CL9 trivial, we really don't need the respite of heroics anymore, but it would be nice to have some level of enforced diversity.

Thanos

A better way to get more use out of our rosters would be to create a new game mode that doesn't rely on the biggest and strongest characters, something that isn't speed based, something that requires thought.

HoundofShadow

Doesn't S.H.I.E.L.D Training achieve similar thing?

LifeofAgony

HoundofShadow said:

Doesn't S.H.I.E.L.D Training achieve similar thing?

Shield trainings are nice one-offs to be done at your own pace with no competive element.

Heroics are full pve events.  Big difference I think.

firethorne

There's a mode in a certain other Marvel game that I won't name because the mods seem very trigger happy about such things.  But, anyway, it is an event where you have 30 floors of increasing difficulty.  Once you defeat a floor, the characters you used are locked from the remainder of the event.  Some floors have extra effects, like villains or female charters do extra damage.  I feel it does a good job all around.  It rewards having a big roster, encourages you to think about using all of it strategically, and makes you not rely upon the same team to clear everything.