We need to talk about StV

Mburn7

FindingHeart8 said:

Guys...we can throw our detailed opinions around until StV hits legacy, but there's no reason to believe the developers will actually nerf this card.  They didnt nerf new perspectives, they didn't nerf omniscience, they aren't going to nerf this card either.

If yall want to keep fighting theoreticals for the sake of flexing your debate-muscles that's fine, but recognize that ultimately this conversation isn't going to change anything.

Hey, save that negativity for the rant thread.

Although I do find if kind of funny that all the most broken cards that do not get changed are Blue.

andrewvanmarle

thanks @FindingHeart8 I think i'll'just stay out of this thread. Nerfcalling annoys me into actually responding

FindingHeart8

Furks said:

Just FYI, this card was stealth nerfed in 2.7.1:

• Support destruction will only target treasures if there are no more valid targets.

It's not a direct nerf, but should limit the support protecting itself from destruction by creating decoys 

that's good for the entire block of Ixalan.  Hopefully that middle ground can put this needless argument to rest.

Gunmix25

Froggy said:

Why is it that the only times people talk about cards are when we want a nerf? ….



Pretty much every extremely powerful and feared card is a requested nerf.

 I think that destroys the game.

Albeit there is that rare moment where the threat is real and a nerf is required, but I think it has gotten a little excessive.

Can’t we just get agreement that decks need to think with being blown away by the card? And then plan ahead?

This discussion would have been really fun if it was about how to use the card and how to deal with it when facing it. You know, a constructive discussion to help players have more fun?

Can we please focus on constructive ideas for this game, rather than focusing on stops and cutting back on card functions?

Thanks. Have a nice day everyone.

Well said! @Froggy I wanna hug you buddy. But @FindingHeart8 would get all jelly.

It has become almost an on-going running joke amongst friends of mine that it is easy to predict a thread being made about cards that should be banned/nerfed. Based on one factor, an unusual effect that has strong implications that a player wants to play but doesn't want to experience facing it first hand in competition.

ZW2007-

andrewvanmarle said:

please stop comparing paper and PQ, Every argument you make seems to hinge on either what a card was in paper or that the devs just didnt balance it right or translated the card in a strange way. I'm'not going card by card because that would make for an incredible boring post,

The argument i disproved was not that blue is the king of gem conversion, but in PQ (important) it does have good managain in the color pie. If you read the post above it says "blue's weakness is managain" 

Mana gain being the operative word.

Yes and most of those cards aren't true mana gain, they are generally mana refund based on a rider effect, which is something blue does. And no, I won't stop comparing paper and PQ because PQ is based entirely on the paper game. The devs have even stated that their goal is to translate cards more directly from paper. The cards not balanced right and being translated strange have nothing to do with my argument at all (and you missed the point entirely because I never said blue desert was not balanced properly, I said the desert cycle itself was not balanced properly - big difference.) 

The point you made did not prove that blue has good mana gain. It doesn't. The mana gain from all those cards is only a slight gain over what you already invested. SA gives you 7 mana free, Days gives 5, Desert gives 3, Admirals orders gives 2. The green cards are green so don't matter. Jodah doesn't give free mana (cost reduction is entirely different). Seeing a trend yet?

Does Vault give you only 7 or so mana in addition what you spent to cast it? The majority of the blue mana gain come in one-time use effects. Vault just keeps doing it turn after turn after turn to much greater effect.

If you want to believe that Vault is perfectly fine, I won't change your opinion. As Foretold is literally identical to Vault of Catlacan in it's determination for mana gains.

As Foretold: At the beginning of your turn, you gain X mana, where X is the number of supports you control.

Vault of Catlacan: At the beginning of your turn, convert X gems to blue, where X is the number of supports you control times 2.

One is a mythic and gives mana at a 1:1 ratio. Another is a rare and gives converts gems (which generates more than just 1 mana) at a 2:1 ratio.

But you are right, blue does have a few cards with mana gain.

FindingHeart8

Gunmix25 said:

Froggy said:

Why is it that the only times people talk about cards are when we want a nerf? ….



Pretty much every extremely powerful and feared card is a requested nerf.

 I think that destroys the game.

Albeit there is that rare moment where the threat is real and a nerf is required, but I think it has gotten a little excessive.

Can’t we just get agreement that decks need to think with being blown away by the card? And then plan ahead?

This discussion would have been really fun if it was about how to use the card and how to deal with it when facing it. You know, a constructive discussion to help players have more fun?

Can we please focus on constructive ideas for this game, rather than focusing on stops and cutting back on card functions?

Thanks. Have a nice day everyone.

Well said! @Froggy I wanna hug you buddy. But @FindingHeart8 would get all jelly.

It has become almost an on-going running joke amongst friends of mine that it is easy to predict a thread being made about cards that should be banned/nerfed. Based on one factor, an unusual effect that has strong implications that a player wants to play but doesn't want to experience facing it first hand in competition.

*psssshhhhhh* I wouldn't get jelly.  ME.  Ha. No. Never.

boopers

FindingHeart8 said:

I don't really see the point of this except for rabble rousing.

1) This card was released almost 2 sets ago and only now seems to be getting hate.

2) This is a powerful and effective card, but it doesn't break the game like a combo Omniscience deck (or cycling).

3) Even Omniscience and cycling didn't get the nerf they deserved.

Just sayin

I second that thought. What do we want... every powerful card to be nerfed so that everything is bland and not exciting? 

When you add STV to a deck, you really need to build around it.  If you think it's auto-include... play it in a mono support deck without any treasure generating cards and see what you think.

I mean, why don't we nerf the Thran saga too -- It's far too powerful when combined with Nyx.

We should nerf Ghalta as well, too powerful when combined with Uncaged.

Common people... just enjoy a fun card and the interesting freshness it brings to the game for a few months.

Unknown

This content has been removed.

Gunmix25

FindingHeart8 said:

Gunmix25 said:

Froggy said:

Why is it that the only times people talk about cards are when we want a nerf? ….



Pretty much every extremely powerful and feared card is a requested nerf.

 I think that destroys the game.

Albeit there is that rare moment where the threat is real and a nerf is required, but I think it has gotten a little excessive.

Can’t we just get agreement that decks need to think with being blown away by the card? And then plan ahead?

This discussion would have been really fun if it was about how to use the card and how to deal with it when facing it. You know, a constructive discussion to help players have more fun?

Can we please focus on constructive ideas for this game, rather than focusing on stops and cutting back on card functions?

Thanks. Have a nice day everyone.

Well said! @Froggy I wanna hug you buddy. But @FindingHeart8 would get all jelly.

It has become almost an on-going running joke amongst friends of mine that it is easy to predict a thread being made about cards that should be banned/nerfed. Based on one factor, an unusual effect that has strong implications that a player wants to play but doesn't want to experience facing it first hand in competition.

*psssshhhhhh* I wouldn't get jelly.  ME.  Ha. No. Never.

*looks left and right* ….  *bro hug*

wereotter

Rigsby said:

boopers said:

Common people... just enjoy a fun card and the interesting freshness it brings to the game for a few months.

A few months?! It's not rotating out, is it??!!!

Likely not for some time. Hour of Devestation is next on the chopping block. 

Mburn7

Rigsby said:

boopers said:

Common people... just enjoy a fun card and the interesting freshness it brings to the game for a few months.

A few months?! It's not rotating out, is it??!!!

Assuming Hour of Devastation rotates out with Core (50/50 at this point), Ixalan will rotate out with New Ravnica part 1 in October, and RIX will rotate with New Ravnica part 2 in January 2019 (or February, I can't remember).  So there's plenty of time.

boopers

Lol. Yes... I would call 6 months “a few”. Sorry, didn’t mean to be so vague. Let’s call it “several” months instead. 

Mburn7

boopers said:

Lol. Yes... I would call 6 months “a few”. Sorry, didn’t mean to be so vague. Let’s call it “several” months instead. 

Easiest way to start a fight. 

"Does couple always mean 2?"

"How many is several?"

"How much is a few?"

Gunmix25

Mburn7 said:

boopers said:

Lol. Yes... I would call 6 months “a few”. Sorry, didn’t mean to be so vague. Let’s call it “several” months instead. 

Easiest way to start a fight. 

"Does couple always mean 2?"

"How many is several?"

"How much is a few?"

Easiest way to end a fight.

"Perhaps the number of a pair"
"Ponder it, think on it, pull up a chair
"But No matter your answer, Sam I am"
"You must try these Green eggs and ham"

FindingHeart8

Mburn7 said:

boopers said:

Lol. Yes... I would call 6 months “a few”. Sorry, didn’t mean to be so vague. Let’s call it “several” months instead. 

Easiest way to start a fight. 

"Does couple always mean 2?"

"How many is several?"

"How much is a few?"

"what do you mean by 'how'?"

"I refuse to accept that answer unless you restate it in roman numerals."

"based on your response, I bet you voted for ________."

"your response lacks the proper vocal dialect."

"pineapple does go on pizza."

I'll fight to the death anyone who agrees with that last one *grabs battle-axe and puts on angry face*

Mburn7

FindingHeart8 said:

Mburn7 said:

boopers said:

Lol. Yes... I would call 6 months “a few”. Sorry, didn’t mean to be so vague. Let’s call it “several” months instead. 

Easiest way to start a fight. 

"Does couple always mean 2?"

"How many is several?"

"How much is a few?"

"pineapple does go on pizza."

I'll fight to the death who agrees with that last one *grabs battle-axe and puts on angry face*

I was going to yell at you for that last one, but then an extra line of text magically appeared.  Not sure how you pulled that off *grabs warhammer and joins the fray*

Blazer

*grabs a spear with his pineapple helmet and pizza shield* This means war!

FindingHeart8

Mburn7 said:

FindingHeart8 said:

Mburn7 said:

boopers said:

Lol. Yes... I would call 6 months “a few”. Sorry, didn’t mean to be so vague. Let’s call it “several” months instead. 

Easiest way to start a fight. 

"Does couple always mean 2?"

"How many is several?"

"How much is a few?"

"pineapple does go on pizza."

I'll fight to the death who agrees with that last one *grabs battle-axe and puts on angry face*

I was going to yell at you for that last one, but then an extra line of text magically appeared.  Not sure how you pulled that off *grabs warhammer and joins the fray*

yes, it did appear.  clearly wombat magic.

TO BATTLE!!

FindingHeart8

Blazer said:

*grabs a spear with his pineapple helmet and pizza shield* This means war!

son, you just started walking down a path you can't turn back from. *unleashes battle cry*

Mburn7

Back to the subject at hand:

Storm the Vault Debate, summarized:

Pros:

Massive mana generation
Massive loyalty generation
Fuel itself before it flips (provided you have an attacking creature)
Can destroy opposing supports from cascades.
Flips with high shield count, so it lasts through multiple hits
Flips with land subtype so it is immune to River's Rebuke and Demistify
It's a Rare, so fairly easy to get.
It is Blue/Red, 2 colors which don't have a lot of gem converting (Blue is usually flat gains and red is usually gem destruction for lucky cascades)

Cons:

Only converts to blue.  Less useful without a good blue bonus
Can destroy your supports from cascades, reducing effectiveness.
Somewhat reliant on creatures to flip, or other artifacts which it will probably destroy
Pretty easy to pop before it flips



Overall Storm the Vault is a very powerful card.  Whether it needs to be changed appears to be a rather contentious debate, and hinges on whether you think the cons balance it out well or are not inhibiting enough.  I don't think anyone would say that the card is not useful, however not everyone thinks it is an auto-include in every blue deck and some red decks.