Should PvP Ribbons Be Awarded for PW Level?

bk1234

I know that many here are proponents for the +/- 10 matchmaking system -- and it's great for newer players, for the bronze and silver tiers where you are just starting and don't have the runes to level your PW, but in the top tier it has created a system that is frequently exploited by capable, strong players to get max points. Yes, it's easier to take 10 or less damage when you are playing with and against a low level PW using your Platinum collection -- but should it be this way?

In QB, we were awarded ribbons based on the level of PW we used, the higher the level, the more ribbons we earned. This encouraged us to use our maxed PW and build decks that realized the potential of our collections of both cards and PW. 

As we discuss changes to the game that not only level the playing field, but offer more of a challenge to veteran players -- we can't ignore the fact that many of the players who regularly top the leaderboard in platinum are doing so by exploiting the matchmaking system and using low level PW. Is this really something that a player earning top rewards should be doing, or should top rewards go to the players using top cards and maxed (or high level) PW?

Should the base ribbons be awarded based on PW level (ie 2 for up to level 20, 3 to level 40, 4 to level 50 and 5 to level 60), as they were in QB?

There are definitely downsides to this -- required PW events are one, but we generally agree here that required PW should be offered (perhaps with a pre-built deck) for everyone to use in these type events. 

Also scores would be lower for players who can't level their PW -- however I think it would also offer an incentive to level your PW and engage further in the game. 

Maybe the solution is to take away the +/-10 matchmaking rule in Platinum and Gold. Then those who chose to play with low level PW can do so, but they are facing the same competition everyone else is and earning rewards in the same fashion. 

I'm interested to hear what others, especially vets, have to say about this. It is a practice that I find exploitative and unsportsmanlike in Platinum -- but it's a widely used practice. I just feel if you want the good rewards, you should work as hard as everyone else does to get them. 

khurram

Vets will be just fine whether what you suggest is implemented or not. The newer players however, will be screwed.

bk1234

khurram said:

Vets will be just fine whether what you suggest is implemented or not. The newer players however, will be screwed.

I agree with this completely. It isn't a blanket solution. 

However, we know the tier system is broken -- and we've seen no indication they plan to fix it, except for one message a long time ago basically saying "we know it doesn't work, we're looking at ways to fix it."

So....

In the interest of keeping the game both fair and engaging to top players -- 

Should different rules apply to top tiers?

Brakkis

I don't think veteran players should play by different rules at all. Just alter the tier system to something more inclusive and possibly more balanced.

Match players based on their card collection. They could do it as an overall number of cards owned or by class of cards - # of Elites, # of Mythics, # of Rares, # of Uncommons, # of Commons. You face players within an equivalent range of owned cards. They could take it a step further and determine it based on the number of legacy and the number of standard cards.

Then, change the matchmaking system to refresh when you change your PW. Stop locking players in on their first match found. For example, if they change their walker from Bolas to Vraska, the opponent refreshes as well.

No more camping down in a lower tier with your mythics and pummeling newcomers. No more abusing a poor matchmaking system.

All of this is, of course, assuming that this can be done.

bk1234

Brakkis said:

I don't think veteran players should play by different rules at all. Just alter the tier system to something more inclusive and possibly more balanced.

Match players based on their card collection. They could do it as an overall number of cards owned or by class of cards - # of Elites, # of Mythics, # of Rares, # of Uncommons, # of Commons. You face players within an equivalent range of owned cards. They could take it a step further and determine it based on the number of legacy and the number of standard cards.

Then, change the matchmaking system to refresh when you change your PW. Stop locking players in on their first match found. For example, if they change their walker from Bolas to Vraska, the opponent refreshes as well.

No more camping down in a lower tier with your mythics and pummeling newcomers. No more abusing a poor matchmaking system.

All of this is, of course, assuming that this can be done.

Yes, but this does nothing to stop people from exploiting the system by playing low level PW in high tiers -- which is the point of this post. 

wereotter

I would say no. Consider the Hour of Devestation event requiring you to use Nicol Bolas. If acquired him recently and didn’t have hundreds of thousands of runes banked up to level him, I don’t think your progress or placement should be punished for it.

I suspect that few enough people are exploiting this to need to fix it. Especially in my case while levening Vraska, I was matched against planeswalkers up to 20 levels higher than me. Definitely made a bigger difference and is a deterrent enough to sitting at a low level. 

bk1234

wereotter said:

I would say no. Consider the Hour of Devestation event requiring you to use Nicol Bolas. If acquired him recently and didn’t have hundreds of thousands of runes banked up to level him, I don’t think your progress or placement should be punished for it.

I suspect that few enough people are exploiting this to need to fix it. Especially in my case while levening Vraska, I was matched against planeswalkers up to 20 levels higher than me. Definitely made a bigger difference and is a deterrent enough to sitting at a low level. 

Based on the amount of players I know; I would guess easily a quarter of platinum players do this — and in any given PvP event, maybe 30-35% of players who finish with top 25 rewards do so by using low level PW to guarantee objectives. 

The marchnaking bug was fixed a long time ago so if you are getting more than 10 levels different, I would suggest submitting a bug report. 

Unknown

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wereotter

bken1234 said:

wereotter said:

I would say no. Consider the Hour of Devestation event requiring you to use Nicol Bolas. If acquired him recently and didn’t have hundreds of thousands of runes banked up to level him, I don’t think your progress or placement should be punished for it.

I suspect that few enough people are exploiting this to need to fix it. Especially in my case while levening Vraska, I was matched against planeswalkers up to 20 levels higher than me. Definitely made a bigger difference and is a deterrent enough to sitting at a low level. 

Based on the amount of players I know; I would guess easily a quarter of platinum players do this — and in any given PvP event, maybe 30-35% of players who finish with top 25 rewards do so by using low level PW to guarantee objectives. 

The marchnaking bug was fixed a long time ago so if you are getting more than 10 levels different, I would suggest submitting a bug report. 

The problem is I don't think the matchmaking is ever really programmed to give you an opponent lower level than you, I personally have never been matched against someone that wasn't my same level or higher. So if I'm level 43, and no one between level 43 and 53 registered for the event, it throws me with a level 60.

Though back to the other point, I think your observation, while valid within the scope of players you know, may not account for the player base at large. Additionally there are others who might think that a certain planeswalker is most appropriate to hitting a node's objectives but simply haven't been able to level that planeswalker completely. I'm speaking for myself when saying that as I still have most the Ixalan walkers and all the Dominaria walkers under level 60, but I'm not going to just not play with them simply because I haven't leveled them entirely (I don't have the runes to do it) and don't think progress should be penalized for it.

HarryMason

I have an idea that everybody is going to hate , but I think that gaming the system is exceptionally weak .Rather than complicate things, take away incentive to game the system. Rather than using the +/- system as it is now , base it upon the highest level pw they've chosen for the event. If you've got a bunch of low level pws , I suppose you could still carry on as usual , but in gold and platinum ,especially plat, that usually isn't the case. I don't know that there is a real blanket solution for the issue , but basing ribbons on pw level is one of the many reasons qb was awful for noobs. Disparity is bad for the game when it can be avoided. 

Mburn7

This is definitely a complicated issue, where no solution can be perfect for everyone.  Here's my thought. (note: I have no problem with the system as-is, but I don't exploit it or expect to be super-top of a bracket anyway)

For most events

Keep the system as-is for bronze and silver

Switch to the old QB system as suggested here for Gold, but keep the +/- system for matching

Ditch the +/- for platinum, make it solely the QB system

For events with a required planeswalker

Keep the system exactly the same for the locked node

See above for the other nodes

Maybe put something in where a win with a walker at level 40 or less gets 200 runes instead of 100 to compensate for the lesser ribbons.  And the coding for this would be absolutely nuts.  But it sounds fair in my head.

ElfNeedsFood

The Marvel PQ game gives a different amount of ribbons based on a formula that factors in how well the opponent you are playing against has done in the same event as well as the level of the players on their team. In Magic PQ the equivalence might come from the rarity of the cards in the deck younare playing against and that player’s current ribbon count. 

DBJones

I like using lower level Planeswalkers to get shorter matches, here in Gold, they're not really much easier on average. I wouldn't mind this change overall, as long as they don't make even grindy-er events than RtO, which could already use a reduction in time consumption.
Also, if they do make this change, I think making level 50+ give max points would be a good idea, you'd mostly be up against level 60s anyways and it would help give players without enough runes a way to match up. I have Karn at level 50, and I won't be getting him any higher for quite some time unless they increase the rate we can get runes significantly. My Bolas isn't even that high.

Tilwin90

Well there are quite a few issues I have with the whole way the planeswalker leveling system works. I remember back when I started the game that it was really fun for me and I enjoyed watching my baby planeswalkers grow. I remember when I first got Chandra to level 60... it felt SO AMAZING using that second ability to decimate my opponent's army.

Nowadays I just find it tedious, boring and pointless. I don't "take advantage" of the whole 'low level planeswalker' matchmaking thing. I prefer to level up everything and enjoy the full power of a planeswalker. Sure, in theory you can take some strategic advantage here and there, but feels more like a loophole than the direction I see the game pushes.

Approach #1 - Eliminate planeswalker level
So coming back to the thread, I think the real problem here is with tiers, not with the planeswalkers themselves. I would eradicate the level up system to narrow the field, and let me explain why:

1) Cards in theory dictate tier. The broader your collection, the higher you will go in tiers. If you are not playing with the cards you get, what's the point of having them in the first place?
2) The current tier system does not take sets into account, so in theory the best set to invest in is Origins. You get great goodies from Origins, you stick to them, and you will generally do good. Quite not encouraging people to expand and try new things though, is it? So people would get bored with this approach.
3) Tier does not care about planeswalker levels. So in theory you can use planeswalkers that are really good with low power cards to stay low in tier. These planeswalkers either pump your side of the board like crazy (Nahiri), have wonderful built-in abilities (Teferi, Bolas, Huatli2) or just have amazingly good cards. In this case, there is really NO POINT in not upgrading your planeswalkers - on contraire, the higher your planeswalker level, the more powerful you get and the better your matches while staying in bronze/silver/gold.


Approach #2 - Lower planeswalker level granularity system (tier-bound)
Another way to encourage people to grow in tiers could be to actually tie planeswalker level to the player's tier. Your planeswalkers would actually grow then according to your tier. Of course this would mean the whole 60 levels granularity would have little to not point anymore. But more like:
Bronze - low mana gains, fewer HP, all abilities at level 1, one deck slot unlocked.
Silver - higher mana gains, more HP, all abilities at level 2, two deck slots unlocked.
Gold - even better mana gains, even more HP, all abilities at level 3, three deck slots unlocked.
Platinum - full mana gains, HP, all abilities at level 4, four deck slots unlocked.

I did not mention deck restrictions "expanding" as you level up because I really see little point in them. Keep deck restrictions on planeswalkers as they keep things balanced, but make them immutable with respect to the level.
I also did not mention regeneration since I find it meaningless in today's context. Back in the days it made more sense, but now it's just a silly restriction.


Approach #3 - Adaptive matchmaking
Speaking of matchmaking, another idea I have to bypass both tiers and planeswalker levels would be a system based on player points. Let me explain:
1) It's clear that the more you win, the better you are and the more powerful your decks are. If you get key combos in key colors, you no longer have to worry about anything else, so it's really not a thing of HOW MANY cards you have but rather the quality of those cards.
2) It's also clear that rotations are not considered, so a player that's quite powerful due to say a current standard (I'm looking at your cycling) will lose a lot of power post rotation. Is it fair to keep that players just as powerful?! No!

Therefore, my recommendation would be:
- Post rotation, reset all players and give them an initial scoring that could keep in mind the current card collection and previous placing. (since post rotation you do lose only part of your collection) - SEEDING
- As players play events (I am looking here only at relevant PVP events, excluding Training Grounds and maybe even Across Ixalan/Trials of the Planes), adjust that level. The more they win, the higher the go. If they lose, they go lower.  - ADJUSTMENT
- In short time, the playfield will adjust so that the best players go against each other while the weaker ones are matched against weaker players. - BALANCED STATE
- Of course this is only applicable to standard. In legacy I guess this would be a continuous process.
- PVE needs a completely different system. I fail to see the point of tiers there as long as everyone plays against the same opponents. And that's fine! But then give everyone the same rewards for the same effort!

People can't really "abuse" this system since in order to stay low, they have to lose! And sure, this also means that some matches might be more difficult at first but this is why the SEEDING step is so important! It needs some experimenting, trying out, proper testing, but if we want a more meaningful system we need a radical change in this direction.


Approach #3 can go together with Approach #1 but not together with #2 (since fluctuating planeswalker level is just stupid).

FeralSkald

100% agree ribbons should be reflective of PW level. I suggested the same thing over a year ago, however it doesn't seem to be a priority. 

The folks who continue to do this purposely (not talking about those who legitimately cant field a 60) lack sportsmanship and any sense of fair play. Sad that games have to code out bad behavior.

TomB

All I know is, when I find myself using a lower-level PW (mostly due to color requirements, or a desire to improve my chances to make secondary objectives, and my guy being lower level due to a lack of runes) I constantly find myself matched up against PW's that are 10-15 levels higher than my guy, and sometimes even more. The enemy PW often has an advantage not only in HP's, but also because their PW abilities are higher level.

I don't understand...How exactly does that equate to ME having an advantage?

Edit: Also, what exactly is a "Platinum" collection? Are you automatically assumed to have a superior collection of Standard-legal cards just because you've made Platinum mastery?

ZW2007-

bken1234 said:

wereotter said:

I would say no. Consider the Hour of Devestation event requiring you to use Nicol Bolas. If acquired him recently and didn’t have hundreds of thousands of runes banked up to level him, I don’t think your progress or placement should be punished for it.

I suspect that few enough people are exploiting this to need to fix it. Especially in my case while levening Vraska, I was matched against planeswalkers up to 20 levels higher than me. Definitely made a bigger difference and is a deterrent enough to sitting at a low level. 

Based on the amount of players I know; I would guess easily a quarter of platinum players do this — and in any given PvP event, maybe 30-35% of players who finish with top 25 rewards do so by using low level PW to guarantee objectives. 

The marchnaking bug was fixed a long time ago so if you are getting more than 10 levels different, I would suggest submitting a bug report. 

I must be in the 65-70% of players that don't abuse this but I also don't support the idea unless it counts lvl 50+ for max ribbons. I play my Bolas at lvl 52 because I refuse to spend any more runes on him. I never play an opponent lower than lvl 60 with him and in mirror matches I am always at a disadvantage because the opponent has 16 more life, better abilities, more spell slots, and slightly better mana gains. I shouldn't be penalized for playing at a disadvantage. In fact, a lot of my planeswalkers were around lvl 50-52 for the longest time because I found that to be the most optimal place from a power to rune expenditure perspective. My Nahiri only recently moved up to 56 because her first being lvl 3 cost me points in a PvE event.

Speaking of PvE, if players are keeping their planeswalkers low lvl for an advantage in PvP, it puts them at a disadvantage for PvE.

Anyway, I really don't see it being that big of a problem. We know they have the data available to them somewhere and if it really is that big of an issue, they will likely do something about it if it concerns them.

FeralSkald

There are more than enough walkers that keeping a few low intentionally to cheat difficult pvp has no impact on pve objectives. It's an issue simply because the pvp top scores gain a lot more resources and people abusing the lower level exploit are more likely to place high. I pretty much assume people with perfect scores on pvp events that have win in less than x, or take less than x are using the exploit. At least a good number of them, the luck required to consistently achieve those 5+ times every event with a 60 Walker is pretty high. A bad draw, poor gem placement or an early AI cascade will typically ruin that perfect score, unless you are facing a low level opponent and have the card stock to make OP low level decks.

Personally I think non 54+ walkers shouldn't be eligible for secondary objectives in pvp.

babar3355

I actually posted about this nearly 2 years ago, https://forums.d3go.com/discussion/55242/low-level-pw-advantage#latest  And clearly it is not a big priority.  At least they changed the disadvantage gap from <5 to 10, because many players were just hanging all of their PWs at low 50s.  This maximizes their value in many cases as @ZW2007- noted, while also pairing them against high 50s level PWs.  (High 50s implied these playeres wanted to get to 60 but couldn't yet, meaning you were rarely paired against high caliber decks.) ie it was the noob pool sweet spot.

Anyway, I am not sure this is being abused to the level it once was.  I am also not sure it matters as much.  The most unfair portion of low level PWs was before we had no ties for top prizes..  Back in those days you both had easier matches and lower HP matches, meaning you were faster at racing for perfect scores.

Now, everyone knows you have to get perfect in an event to get top 5 (until the last HoD).  I also don't know anyone in my coalition who is running lots of underleveled walkers to exploit advantages. Maybe they are and I just don't know it.

James13

Some of us don't want to grind.  Ever.  And have developed playstyles that allow us to level PW moderately and leave them there.  Thus ensuring never once having to grind for runes.

I'd read this to some degree as saying the way I choose to play the game is wrong and should be punished.

babar3355

James13 said:

Some of us don't want to grind.  Ever.  And have developed playstyles that allow us to level PW moderately and leave them there.  Thus ensuring never once having to grind for runes.

I'd read this to some degree as saying the way I choose to play the game is wrong and should be punished.

This is not the way to think about it.  You are conflating the problem with getting sufficient runes with the problem of people with sufficient resources exploiting easier matchmaking.

The question to ask is... if every player in the game had sufficient runes to level their PWs to 60, is it a problem that some people are refusing to do so in order to place higher in PvP events...?  Clearly the answer is yes.