Jaya or Teferi - Which super friend is more worth your money?

2

Comments

  • madwren
    madwren Posts: 2,259 Chairperson of the Boards
    Brakkis said:
    It's a nightmare with just a single card draw in your deck, which blue has ample amounts of, and finds a place in pretty much 90% of blue decks anyway. You don't necessarily have to build for it; it's like the little garnish on your prime piece of steak.

    I agree, you don't need to build for the ultimate. A single TSN plus your normal draw each turn does wonders to control the board.




  • Stormcrow
    Stormcrow Posts: 462 Mover and Shaker
    I think in most cases it's about which cards you've got. I've never gotten the red Hour or Inferno Jet (believe it or not!) and really...I'm not sure what I'd cast with Jaya. HUF into Exquisite Firecraft feels kind of...dumb.

    OTOH I have both Starfield and Omniscience, so, you know. I can just go be a terrible awful person with Teferi that way.
  • Brakkis
    Brakkis Posts: 777 Critical Contributor
    edited June 2018
    An addendum to my previous statement though is this:

    Jaya can loop you to death with her ult. No input required from the player once it starts. Cant be stopped once it starts. Firebrand Archer + Magmatic Insight and/or Conflux.

    I said it'd be possible when they previewed her and it turns out, I was correct.
  • Mburn7
    Mburn7 Posts: 3,427 Chairperson of the Boards
    Brakkis said:
    An addendum to my previous statement though is this:

    Jaya can loop you to death with her ult. No input required from the player once it starts. Cant be stopped once it starts. Firebrand Archer + Magmatic Insight and/or Conflux.

    I said it'd be possible when they previewed her and it turns out, I was correct.
    That's......um......great?

    Nice to see a mono color with a good ability.  Less nice to see an infinite loop using 2 uncommons that almost everyone has.  Even worse is how impossible this is to stop without nerfing the ability into the ground (also see Nehru/Siren's Ruse, except easier to get)
  • Theros
    Theros Posts: 490 Mover and Shaker
    in the long run when hou rotates, Teferi may be stronger I think.
  • khurram
    khurram Posts: 1,090 Chairperson of the Boards
    Brakkis said:
    An addendum to my previous statement though is this:

    Jaya can loop you to death with her ult. No input required from the player once it starts. Cant be stopped once it starts. Firebrand Archer + Magmatic Insight and/or Conflux.

    I said it'd be possible when they previewed her and it turns out, I was correct.
    The entire decklist.
  • Brakkis
    Brakkis Posts: 777 Critical Contributor
    edited June 2018
    khurram said:
    Brakkis said:
    An addendum to my previous statement though is this:

    Jaya can loop you to death with her ult. No input required from the player once it starts. Cant be stopped once it starts. Firebrand Archer + Magmatic Insight and/or Conflux.

    I said it'd be possible when they previewed her and it turns out, I was correct.
    The entire decklist.

    Credit goes to @Nyarlathotep from our coalition group for testing out the 3 infinite loop combos this deck can do.



    If I can get him to upload the video of it in action, I'll post that here too. It's currently up on our slack but I don't know how to post it here from there, because I'm a tired dunce.

    Essentially, Conflux can do it on it's own.

    Firebrand Archer + Conflux can do it faster.

    Firebrand Archer + Magmatic Insight takes about twice as long but will still infinite loop the opponent to death.

    Rile + any creature that gets +x/+x when a spell is cast (Adeliz in this scenario) can also do it though it takes much longer and requires constant self targetting, thus user input, and you just choose not to cast Rile anymore once the creature is high enough to one shot the opponent.
  • khurram
    khurram Posts: 1,090 Chairperson of the Boards
    Does the copied spell also get full Mana?
  • morgue427
    morgue427 Posts: 783 Critical Contributor
    got lava axe dont we? it was a cheap 6 dmg for 3 but had to discard rotated out though
  • Brakkis
    Brakkis Posts: 777 Critical Contributor
    edited June 2018
    Jaya - Firebrand Archer + Magmatic Insight loop

    https://youtu.be/aZN2pWlxeTg


    Jaya - Conflux loop

    https://youtu.be/xQdiwNHXgT4
  • Nyarlathotep
    Nyarlathotep Posts: 92 Match Maker
    I did not find the time, to screencast the third loop, yet . With all three of those loop possibilities in one deck, it is not exactly easy to get one specific loop to start. I keep playing more and more games and capture a videoof it, when i get it to work again. 

  • Nyarlathotep
    Nyarlathotep Posts: 92 Match Maker
    khurram said:
    Does the copied spell also get full Mana?
    Yes it does. 

  • Nyarlathotep
    Nyarlathotep Posts: 92 Match Maker
    edited June 2018
    I try to describe what happens. 
    The interaction between Alhammaret's Archive's "Whenever you would draw a card, you draw 2 cards instead" and Jaya's Ultimate at Level 4 "Whenever you draw a spell, give it full mana and create a copy of it." seems to create a recursion of some sort. 

    1. I draw a spell. 
    Now Archive and Jaya's ultimate both trigger something, but as we see, archive gets handled first.
    2. I draw, draw, draw, draw until the hand is full.
    Next comes the copying and the charging, but my hand is already full. I guess, at that point copied spells get put on top of my libary. But thats just a guess. 
    3. Now the spells' effects are resolved. 
    Spell draws a card... 
    This is where the loop starts. 
    Back to 1.


    I hope you get what i try to explain . 
    😁 



  • khurram
    khurram Posts: 1,090 Chairperson of the Boards
    Alhammeret treats the copied spell as a drawn card and triggers. Same thing when Naru copies a spell. This seems like a bug and should be fixed, that will also resolve the issue of Jaya's ult going in a loop.

    I don't get how magmatic insight keeps drawing itself though. Is Jaya's ultimate triggering first or the spell...
  • khurram
    khurram Posts: 1,090 Chairperson of the Boards
    Watched the second video. It's definitely not working according to it's description.

    How does one end up with a hand full of conflux
  • Rhasget
    Rhasget Posts: 412 Mover and Shaker
    You can end up creating an endless loop without killing the opponeng if you're not careful.
    I triggered the Magmatic Insight loop accidentally when my Firebrand Archer died and it started looping without end.

    I have faced several Jaya today in AI and all were pretty much the same deck. Even without this thread I think players come to the same setup (none have used Alhammarets though so suspect all don't read here) since you are a bit limited with red/colorless cards in standard with her.
  • Nyarlathotep
    Nyarlathotep Posts: 92 Match Maker
    edited July 2018
    I tested around with this a bit more and it seems you do not need archive like at all.
    At least not to get the loop started. 
    The point at which the loop starts is just easier reached with a lot of card draw. 
    As far as i can tell up to this point  the loop begins at the point, where you draw a spell and do not have room in your hand for the spells copy  
    At that point you you know exactly what you will draw next, because it is always a copy of the spell.
    And if that spell draws a card  the loop starts. 

    And archive is just a bonus. 
    If you have lets say 1 card on you hand  Archive and her ult are up and running and you draw any spell  that where another bit of magic happens. 
    Archive lets you draw one extra card, but before that is resolved the ult copies the card, which triggers archive again (for some reason the copied card is deal with as a card drawn) and lets you draw an extra card,  but before that happens, her ult copies it again....
    Up to the point where your hand is filled and at that point, you get a copied spell placed on top of your lib.
    Now finally each and every spell in your hand gets fully charged. Which is what lets me think of the archive and the ult building the secondary loop. If everything would work as i think it should at this point only the first, third and fifth spell should get charged, but because archive deals the copies as a draw, it somehow Interrupts the flow and they all get charded, because nothing is deal with as the copy. 

    And that is exactly where the main loop starts. 
    Spell gets resolved, you draw the same spell again, it gets copied, copy gets place in your lib again, the new drawn spell gets fully charged... Rinse and repeat 

    I may or may not be right in this. 
    But i played about 150 - 170 matches with the looping deck and that what i think i have learned in that time.

    If you find anything new, of have a more fitting explanation, just let me know. 



  • Gun Bunny
    Gun Bunny Posts: 233 Tile Toppler
    Teferi.

    End of discussion.

    Blue/White has bounce and disable to buy you time to build your loyalty, as well as card draw to abuse it once it drops.

    Jaya has good abilities, but lacks the access to cheap, reliable draw that doesn't have a downside that would really make her ultimate sing.
  • ZW2007-
    ZW2007- Posts: 812 Critical Contributor
    Jaya's ult is definitely bugged. In the second video you cast one Rile and draw one Firebrand Archer and then 5 Conflux. You should only be drawing Archer, then Conflux, then creating a copy of Conflux. It seems like the created copy is counting as being drawn and getting full mana and copied. It shouldn't be doing either. I still have no idea how it just keeps making infinite copies of Conflux. The support says "Whenever you draw a spell, give it full mana and create a copy of it." So how are you getting more Conflux after casting a Conflux? I know Conflux draws cards thanks to her blue mana gains but it shouldn't just automatically draw and create more copies of Conflux. 
  • Brakkis
    Brakkis Posts: 777 Critical Contributor
    edited July 2018
    ZW2007- said:
    Jaya's ult is definitely bugged. In the second video you cast Rile and draw one Firebrand Archer and then 5 Conflux. You should only be drawing Archer, then Conflux, then creating a copy of Conflux. It seems like the created copy is counting as being drawn and getting full mana and copied. It shouldn't be doing either. I still have no idea how it just keeps making infinite copies of Conflux. The support says "Whenever you draw a spell, give it full mana and create a copy of it." So how are you getting more Conflux after casting a Conflux? I know Conflux draws cards thanks to her blue mana gains but it shouldn't just automatically draw and create more copies of Conflux. 

    It would seem that her ult is considering the copied spell as "drawn" and creating a copy of the copy.

    Gun Bunny said:
    Jaya has good abilities, but lacks the access to cheap, reliable draw that doesn't have a downside that would really make her ultimate sing.

    There is literally a post with videos on this same page showing otherwise...

    Teferi is still the better option.

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