Roster Slot Prices........a major problem for new rosters

MarkersMake

What's with all the binary thinking in this thread? It's not all or nothing. 

Look, let's say the "original" math on character acquisition rate vs hp accumulation meant that you couldn't roster 15% of the characters you acquired in the "typical" case. That's your incentive to buy HP.

If that rate is now 30% due to dilution, then you can adjust roster slot costs so that it's back to 15% without reducing it to zero.

EDIT - if you want to put it in business terms, replace "original" with "optimal" (ie. the ratio at which the incentive to purchase HP is not so strong that it reduces overall profits by driving too many players to quit the game entirely). 

bbigler

DAZ0273 said:

Once you feel it is OK to spend $20 (or more) on a mobile game, there is a good chance you’ll do so more than once.

They're good at conditioning players to spend money.  The SCL 3 Starter Pack costs $8 and you think, "wow that's a great deal for all those covers and ISO" so you buy it.  Then SCL 4 Starter Pack costs $15 and you think the same thing.  Then SCL 5 Starter Pack costs $20 and you don't think $20 is a big deal because last time you spent $15.  SCL 6 costs $25 and SCL 7 costs $30.  Because these 1 time deals are so much better than just buying HP outright, you do it, but if they presented a $30 deal in the beginning, I bet people wouldn't bite.

I'm guessing the SCL 8 Starter Pack costs $35, but I'm not there yet. 

bbigler

MarkersMake said:

/shrug, if you started 2 years ago, a sample of, say, 500 heroic token pulls might get you 50 different characters. Now that same set of pulls might get you 75 due to dilution. I'm sure someone could easily run a simulation to pin down the actual numbers.

Forget simulation, let's just do some math. 

500 Heroic Tokens would average:
36 x 4* covers
125 x 3* covers
339 x 2* covers
8 BH covers - 2 x 4* and 6 x 3*

In terms of characters, that turns into about:
35 x 4*s
45 x 3*s
13 x 2*s
 = 83 characters

Phumade

While there is alot of truth in saying new rosters have to cover ALOT of charas, your ignoring the important fact of how much MORE ISO and HP flow in today's economy.

I'm pretty sure a new day 300 roster is seeing 2x as much ISO/HP as I was at that stage of the game.

It should go without saying that Rosters slots costs have stayed fixed since the start of the game.  Thus as avg daily ISO/HP/CP keeps RISING,  Roster SLoT expense as % of daily income keeps going down.

Its still appropriate and accurate to say that slots are the lifeblood of new accounts.  But I would also say slots are now cheaper than ever, and its as easy as its ever been to buy new slots as a % of income.

MarkersMake

Phumade said:

While there is alot of truth in saying new rosters have to cover ALOT of charas, your ignoring the important fact of how much MORE ISO and HP flow in today's economy.

I'm pretty sure a new day 300 roster is seeing 2x as much ISO/HP as I was at that stage of the game.

ISO income has drastically increased - I'll agree with your 2x estimate. But where in the game has an increase of that magnitude occurred for HP?

I mean, sure, a mature roster (champed 2*/3*/4*) gets champ rewards that provide a ton of HP.

But new players by definition don't have that source of HP. I suppose if you consider only day 300+ players to be "new", they might have enough champs to be HP-positive, but that's just defining your way around the question, isn't it? 

Sim Mayor

I mean, it's a FTP game with an amazingly large pool of characters to potentially play. Something's gotta give, and at the stage you're at (again), it's HP. It makes sense for them to want to "throttle" roster growth at that stage. If they didn't, everyone would have dozens of 3* and 4* characters with 1-2 covers each instead of building up a few characters to truly usable levels.

Pick a few characters to build until you have a working 2* farm supplying you with steady HP. If you have someone rostered who isn't that interesting to you, swap them the next time you get a cover you like. Don't feel bad about selling covers for characters you're not either actively using or just need to keep for personal reasons. You'll get more.

Daiches

MarkersMake said:

Phumade said:

While there is alot of truth in saying new rosters have to cover ALOT of charas, your ignoring the important fact of how much MORE ISO and HP flow in today's economy.

I'm pretty sure a new day 300 roster is seeing 2x as much ISO/HP as I was at that stage of the game.

ISO income has drastically increased - I'll agree with your 2x estimate. But where in the game has an increase of that magnitude occurred for HP?

I mean, sure, a mature roster (champed 2*/3*/4*) gets champ rewards that provide a ton of HP.

But new players by definition don't have that source of HP. I suppose if you consider only day 300+ players to be "new", they might have enough champs to be HP-positive, but that's just defining your way around the question, isn't it? 

2star farming is a HUUUUUUGE source of HP that simply wasn't available before championing. Yet costs for slots are the same.

bbigler

Sim Mayor said:

I mean, it's a FTP game with an amazingly large pool of characters to potentially play. Something's gotta give, and at the stage you're at (again), it's HP. It makes sense for them to want to "throttle" roster growth at that stage. If they didn't, everyone would have dozens of 3* and 4* characters with 1-2 covers each instead of building up a few characters to truly usable levels.

Pick a few characters to build until you have a working 2* farm supplying you with steady HP. If you have someone rostered who isn't that interesting to you, swap them the next time you get a cover you like. Don't feel bad about selling covers for characters you're not either actively using or just need to keep for personal reasons. You'll get more.

I currently have 12 x 2*s champed, so that farm is up and running now.  I have 45 x 3*s rostered and 10 x 4*s rostered, which means that I've wasted 0 covers since the restart, but it required buying HP.  Here's my problem: my current HP income is insufficient even though I have my 2* farm again.  Plus.......I've been hoarding HT & LT, so my roster needs could have been a lot greater.  Back when I had 15 champed 4*s along with all champed 3*s and 2*s, my HP income was about 500 per day.  Now, it's more like 250.

I'm certainly taking the fast track to progression, but it looks like I will need to buy some HP in the future if I ever want to "catch up" with my roster slots given my hoarded tokens. 

Twysta

Actually back at the start selling 3* and 4* chars used to reward HP, which did help a little. 

MarkersMake

Daiches said:

MarkersMake said:

Phumade said:

While there is alot of truth in saying new rosters have to cover ALOT of charas, your ignoring the important fact of how much MORE ISO and HP flow in today's economy.

I'm pretty sure a new day 300 roster is seeing 2x as much ISO/HP as I was at that stage of the game.

ISO income has drastically increased - I'll agree with your 2x estimate. But where in the game has an increase of that magnitude occurred for HP?

I mean, sure, a mature roster (champed 2*/3*/4*) gets champ rewards that provide a ton of HP.

But new players by definition don't have that source of HP. I suppose if you consider only day 300+ players to be "new", they might have enough champs to be HP-positive, but that's just defining your way around the question, isn't it? 

2star farming is a HUUUUUUGE source of HP that simply wasn't available before championing. Yet costs for slots are the same.

2* champ reward HP (375HP per 63 covers per character) addressed the dilution that occurred between game launch and the introduction of champing.

Are you saying there hasn't been any further dilution since then? 

Daredevil217

bbigler said:

Sim Mayor said:

I mean, it's a FTP game with an amazingly large pool of characters to potentially play. Something's gotta give, and at the stage you're at (again), it's HP. It makes sense for them to want to "throttle" roster growth at that stage. If they didn't, everyone would have dozens of 3* and 4* characters with 1-2 covers each instead of building up a few characters to truly usable levels.

Pick a few characters to build until you have a working 2* farm supplying you with steady HP. If you have someone rostered who isn't that interesting to you, swap them the next time you get a cover you like. Don't feel bad about selling covers for characters you're not either actively using or just need to keep for personal reasons. You'll get more.

I currently have 12 x 2*s champed, so that farm is up and running now.  I have 45 x 3*s rostered and 10 x 4*s rostered, which means that I've wasted 0 covers since the restart, but it required buying HP.  Here's my problem: my current HP income is insufficient even though I have my 2* farm again.  Plus.......I've been hoarding HT & LT, so my roster needs could have been a lot greater.  Back when I had 15 champed 4*s along with all champed 3*s and 2*s, my HP income was about 500 per day.  Now, it's more like 250.

I'm certainly taking the fast track to progression, but it looks like I will need to buy some HP in the future if I ever want to "catch up" with my roster slots given my hoarded tokens. 

You are the exact reason why the system is the way it is. You can’t throw money at them and say “stop charging so much!”.  You’re buying HP hand-over-fist because you want zero waste. To me it seemed like a waste to use my real life income just to roster my 42nd (or whatever) 3*. I sold TONS of covers back in the day. Honestly way more 4* covers than most people I’d imagine. But that was the cost to stay F2P.  I knew those covers would eventually come back around again. Plus making those hard choices (reading character rankings, getting forum opinions on who to keep) was part of the fun of the game for me during that particular struggle. Now I have every character rostered, 212 slots, and 22k HP in the bank all while spending less than 20 dollars over 1300+ days (I very recently joined the $2 a month intercept club). 

I think the infrastructure is there to be F2P but you really have to let go of the idea of wasting being horrible or be extremely patient (which is where I am.. you should see some of my hoards!). 

bbigler

Daredevil217 said:

 (I very recently joined the $2 a month intercept club).

I remember Shield Intercepts, which were "free" to VIP members.  Has that changed in the last year?  I'm VIP and get Bonus Rewards..........am I missing something here?

Daredevil217

bbigler said:

Daredevil217 said:

 (I very recently joined the $2 a month intercept club).

I remember Shield Intercepts, which were "free" to VIP members.  Has that changed in the last year?  I'm VIP and get Bonus Rewards..........am I missing something here?

They are no longer free but no longer tied to ads either. As long as you make a purchase (any purchase) you get them for a month. So with VIP you’re fine. I just buy the tiniest thing I can (pittance) once a month because to me it’s the best return on investment. 

fmftint

Roster cost today are infinitely better that they used to be,  HP is more plentiful and slot prices are capped. Back when I stated roster slot prices had NO cap,  every slot cost more than the previous one indefinitely and HP sources were more limited. 

I'll take the way it is now any day

IceIX

Not to give specific numbers, but as others have stated in the thread, Roster Slots are a majority of Hero Points spent on anything across the game on a regular basis. It would be a very difficult (but not impossible) sell to the bean counter types to modify that amount without pretty concrete evidence that it would help our revenue.

In brief numbers, just yesterday, Roster Slots were around 60% of HP spent, Comic Packs were around 30%, and every other source of HP spend like Heroes for Hire, Health Packs, Boosts, Shields, etc making up the rest. Roster Slots are kind of important.

MarkersMake

Thanks for the overview, @IceIX.

Do you have a breakdown on early stage (ie. before they reach 1000HP cost @ slot 77) vs later stage roster slot spending? My tally is 36,675 HP for the first 76 slots (~480ish per slot on avg). I'm betting on most HP being spent by players past this point of the game. 

From a revenue perspective, if most of the players who actually purchase HP have >76 roster slots (or have acquired a total earned HP > 37k), then adjusting early  roster slot costs shouldn't have too much effect on overall revenues, while potentially increasing retention. 

I don't have any of the numbers to make a solid case for you (since they're all obviously internal) - but it's not unreasonable to look into why new players leave the game and whether dilution/roster slots is an issue that could be addressed without cutting into existing revenues too significantly. 

The rockett

MarkersMake said:

Thanks for the overview, @IceIX.

Do you have a breakdown on early stage (ie. before they reach 1000HP cost @ slot 77) vs later stage roster slot spending? My tally is 36,675 HP for the first 76 slots (~480ish per slot on avg). I'm betting on most HP being spent by players past this point of the game. 

From a revenue perspective, if most of the players who actually purchase HP have >76 roster slots (or have acquired a total earned HP > 37k), then adjusting early  roster slot costs shouldn't have too much effect on overall revenues, while potentially increasing retention. 

I don't have any of the numbers to make a solid case for you (since they're all obviously internal) - but it's not unreasonable to look into why new players leave the game and whether dilution/roster slots is an issue that could be addressed without cutting into existing revenues too significantly. 

You also have to take in account of players that bought these slots and then dont play anymore. So they already got their money from that player and have turned them over.  You have to also include a turnover factor as well. 

AXP_isme

Speaking from my own experience (what a worthless qualifier, who else’s experience can I talk from.. duh!) Ice’s explanation sounds about right. I spend HP on roster slots on a pretty regular basis. I’ve brought four or so new slots in the last week. Other spending, shields, packs, HfH, boosts... is much less frequent

Projectus2501

Humm... I personally enjoyed managing hp when I had fewer roster slots. Back in the day I just kept collecting heroic packs. That was enough to manage slots. I think I got to 300 and after that I was able to have a big enough roster. Also, the saved covers feature also keeps you from having to dupe heroes

Tensuun

Most of us in or past the 4* tier probably buy at least one roster slot every time a new character is released.

For a little while, I was buying an additional roster slot every time I got a cover for a 2* character I didn't have enough iso-8 to champ. With the introduction of the cover-saving mechanic, I'll probably be selling 2* max champs to make room for new releases instead of buying slots, until I run out of 2* dupes. Assuming I'm not the only person who did this, the cover-saving mechanic has already represented a revenue-engagement trade-off in favor of engagement; I won't be buying more roster slots (in the short run), but I'm a bit more interested in continuing to try building out my 4* roster than I otherwise would've been.

Aside from roster slots, I mostly spend my HP on HFH deals, particularly the ones that correspond to new releases. This is mostly HP earned in-game from champion levels, progression rewards, etc. but is supplemented by VIP.

For any given player, there will be some particular resource holding them back:
1. Some players have multiple characters at 13/13 covers, and don't have enough iso-8 to champ them before a 14th cover would expire.
2. Some players have plenty of iso-8 and roster space, but don't have enough tokens, covers, or CP to unlock more characters.
3. Some players have lots of iso-8 and hoards of tokens, but can't earn HP fast enough to roster new characters before they expire.

The cynical part of me actually suspects that the increasing number of Alliance Events (with their generous and guaranteed cover rewards) is intended to push people out of class (2) into one of the other two, because that greatly simplifies the revenue projection models. A relatively high (30%?!) amount of HP being spent on token buys makes me think this process isn't yet fully complete, but it's possible the average player is actually just making the mistake of spending HP on a cover that they then can't afford the HP to roster.

In my case, I am of course in the first category, and my dollars are directed toward whatever gets me the most iso-8. VIP seems like a decent deal here; ~9k iso-8 for $10 is already a 50% better deal than 1.2k iso-8 for $2. The HP, tokens, and CP are nice to have as well. With HP from this supplementing HP earned in-game, I can generally save up enough to buy the occasional HFH while keeping up with roster slot needs; I think of HFH as my biggest HP expense, but I honestly don't know what kind of data I'm generating; maybe I buy tokens more often than I think!

Why HFH? Well, especially when a new 4* character is released, a 7000 HP trade for a bundle of stuff that includes 20k iso-8 isn't bad. The money-shop values 200 HP at $2, and 1200 iso-8 at $2, a 1:6 ratio. 7:20 is significantly worse, but the money-shop consumes money instead of HP. The same goes for any opportunity to turn 250 of my CP into some amount of iso-8: I'm gonna go for it, because I need iso-8. Any opportunity to trade a resource that isn't money or iso-8 so that I can get more iso-8 is almost certainly worth taking.

This is, I guess, maybe sort of an argument for making the iso-8 trades in the money-shop more favorable. If I could get more than 9k iso-8 for my $10 directly, and without waiting for a VIP pass to run to completion, I'd probably be spending there occasionally. On the other hand, I'd still save most of my in-game-earned HP for HFH deals, and I'd probably still avoid spending more than $10 per 28 days, since that's generally what my gaming budget assumes these days.