What about the vets?

bk1234
bk1234 Posts: 2,924 Chairperson of the Boards
in MtGPQ General Discussion
The thread Events are too easy got my mind turning about the state of the game for veteran players --- 

I think it's wonderful that Oktagon is building events that allow new players to succeed and move forward; this was a much needed change in the game, but the balance has shifted so that vets are left bored and content starved. 

I have left my top 10 coalition and joined a casual one because I don't have any incentive to play much right now. 

I can complete Fateful Showdown with a single Planeswalker without refreshing. 

I have played Story Mode heroic encounters so many times, I can't even stomach doing it again. 

Putting exclusive cards in elite packs gives me no incentive to buy anything. I bought Tendershoot and have pulled 2 more -- 800 pinkies down the drain. 

Training Grounds offers me 15 minutes of gameplay each day and no incentive to go further. 

Across Ixalan is the same. 

The new individual PVE events are so easy that when I said I'm building decks for them, one of my teammates told me there's basically no point. Then I finished it, after having to play the same event more than once and got [another] Squee. 

Trial of the Planes doesn't seem worth the investment anymore -- I just get dupes from elite packs. 

We almost never have individual PvP, which is the one place we can really shine and use our huge legacy cards. What happened to all the PVP events we've played in the past? Where is ToA, Inventor's Fair, HoR --- can we get some old NOP? Anything? Individual events at least give vets something to do and allow us to use our legacy cards -- we feel valued for the time (and sometimes money) we've put into the game.

I already have all of the DOM commons and uncommons and a decent amount of mythics and rares. I have all the PW (including Jaya) and they are all maxed. What do I spend my crystals on?

I have crafted or pulled everything I genuinely feel I need -- and don't see the value in going through 12 cards to get 1 that I want. 

Platinum doesn't seem elite anymore because so many people have tiered up, I'm playing decks that can't stand up to my collection. 

My main and my alt both easily achieve perfect scores in AWR with little to no effort. 

At the end of the day, there is so much about this game that I love, but I have absolutely nowhere to go and no incentive to actually log in and invest time. 

So the question is -- how can the devs achieve balance by engaging new, mid level and veteran players?

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Comments

  • Mburn7
    Mburn7 Posts: 3,427 Chairperson of the Boards
    I have been saying for  (literally) a year and a half now that we need another tier.  Platinum was over-saturated when Amonkhet came out, let alone now.  Another solution would be to adjust the tiers to account for how many more cards there are now then there were when the tiers were created (or make only your standard collection count for tiers, someone suggested that a while ago and I thought it was a great idea)

    In terms of keeping the oldies engaged, we just need more events.  At one point we were promised to always have a PvP and a PvE event running concurrently, with one always being coalition and the other one not.  I think this was a perfect schedule.  2 coalition events a week (with a couple days off in between) with some fun legacy stuff thrown in if you got bored.  

    Another thing would be to just make harder nodes on events or bring back the smarter Greg.  I understand there needs to be more easy stuff for the noobs, but I should feel challenged too.
  • DumasAG
    DumasAG Posts: 719 Critical Contributor
    The answer to "how can they engage mid-level and veteran players?" is to build a task-force of 3 employees and 5-10 veterans from the community to continually brainstorm cool new events. Crystal entry should be high, and rewards are a mixture of currency and aesthetics (alternate arts for cards, alternate arts for planeswalkers, etc.). Continually offering new and ever-more challenging gameplay is the answer. It's not practical though. Every game has an end-point, where a player can no longer progress. They eventually fade away as new players become more invested and try to reach that point. 

    The money is in new players trying to build a collection in order to be competitive. The money trap is in keeping veteran players happy. So the ugly truth is, they aren't incentivized to keep the vets happy by continually committing resources to dreaming up, building, and implementing new events and content.
  • ArielSira
    ArielSira Posts: 520 Critical Contributor
    I really liked smarter Greg on Ixalan launch, maybe at least for platinum then
  • bk1234
    bk1234 Posts: 2,924 Chairperson of the Boards
    ArielSira said:
    I really liked smarter Greg on Ixalan launch, maybe at least for platinum then
    I miss brainy Greg as well. 

    Better rewards or fancy cards are not an incentive for me -- I can generally get whatever I want. 

    Challenging gameplay, readily available optional (non coalition) content -- those are incentives for me. 

    Having a standard TG would be amazing -- there is no way to test my decks anywhere. 

    Top tier players have no where to go, but to fine tune our skills and improve. A testing mode where we could chose format and objectives would be amazing. I would spend HOURS every week tuning decks and experimenting. 
  • Mainloop25
    Mainloop25 Posts: 1,959 Chairperson of the Boards
    Harder PVE. Trial of Zeal when it first came out was tough but fun for that reason. Maybe if there was a platinum-only event that was really hard like that one was? 
  • Mburn7
    Mburn7 Posts: 3,427 Chairperson of the Boards
    Mainloop25 said:
    Harder PVE. Trial of Zeal when it first came out was tough but fun for that reason. Maybe if there was a platinum-only event that was really hard like that one was? 
    I don't think they could make a platinum-only event, although a new event structured like Trial of the Planes (where its a paid entry that is only worth it at platinum) would be interesting.
  • bk1234
    bk1234 Posts: 2,924 Chairperson of the Boards
    Mainloop25 said:
    Harder PVE. Trial of Zeal when it first came out was tough but fun for that reason. Maybe if there was a platinum-only event that was really hard like that one was? 
    I've always thought PVE should be tuned to tier. Better rewards should come to those who work harder, not those who have been here the longest and have the biggest collections. 

    I remember in RotGP, new players beating bolas in 1.5 hour matches with C1 in her 30s and I was beating him in 3 minutes with HUF / AotSS and getting better rewards for almost no effort. 

    This is not balanced. 
  • hawkyh1
    hawkyh1 Posts: 780 Critical Contributor
    edited June 2018
    they could create a team bot that coalition members can
    submit decks to and play against. could be a bit like story
    mode but gets updated when team members get creative.

    HH
  • babar3355
    babar3355 Posts: 1,128 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited June 2018
    I broadly agree with @bken1234 but would take it a step further.  I don't want the same old recycled events. Don't get me wrong, I would prefer an old PvP event compared to nothing at all, but honestly the prizes are so awful that I usually didnt bother playing them.

    We need a new, innovative way to play the game as often as we like.  Something that adds challenge, rewards players in some way regardless of how many games  are played (100 runes is not sufficient).  

    If you are wondering, "Why are they not satisfied?  We have given them 3 new sets, including new mechanics, 5+ new events, including new overlays, and 9? new PWs since we joined last fall....  why are they still complaining?"

    The answer is, there is nothing rewarding to do in the game 95% of the time.  I can't just log in and play some content past ToTP, AX, and TG.  If you expect us to just play for the fun of it then you are really missing what makes a game engaging and addictive.  

    You don't even need the rewards to be that amazing.  Trophies, skins, etc are sufficient for other games.
  • bk1234
    bk1234 Posts: 2,924 Chairperson of the Boards
    babar3355 said:
    I broadly agree with @bken1234 but would take it a step further.  I don't want the same old recycled events. Don't get me wrong, I would prefer an old PvP event compared to nothing at all, but honestly the prizes are so awful that I usually didnt bother playing them.

    We need a new, innovative way to play the game as often as we like.  Something that adds challenge, rewards players in some way regardless of how many games  are played (100 runes is not sufficient).  

    If you are wondering, "Why are they not satisfied?  We have given them 3 new sets, including new mechanics, 5+ new events, including new overlays, and 9? new PWs since we joined last fall....  why are they still complaining?"

    The answer is, there is nothing rewarding to do in the game 95% of the time.  I can't just log in and play some content past ToTP, AX, and TG.  If you expect us to just play for the fun of it then you are really missing what makes a game engaging and addictive.  

    You don't even need the rewards to be that amazing.  Trophies, skins, etc are sufficient for other games.
    I love badges and trophies -- any kind of goal to work towards!
  • FindingHeart8
    FindingHeart8 Posts: 2,731 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited June 2018
    Gunmix25 said:
    Mburn7 said:
    I have been saying for  (literally) a year and a half now that we need another tier. 

    Bronze

    Silver

    Gold

    Platinum

    Unobtainum!

    :D


    not enough levels, let me add to this:

    1) Look I found this thing in the woods, I think it might be metal, or it could be a rock.
    2) Yup...it was a rock.
    3) I'm pretty sure what I have is metal, but it only is solid if I keep it out of the rain.
    4) Nope, it was tin all along
    5) Well-crafted tin.
    6) Unrefined copper
    7) Bronze
    8) Rusty Silver
    9) Silver
    10) Fools Gold
    11) Actual Gold...I think
    12) Nope still Fools Gold
    13) Gold
    14) Waiting in the V.I.P. line thinking you're platinum.
    15) Finding out you weren't on this list...
    16) ...yet
    17) Waiting in the V.I.P line, you know you're a platinum player for sure this time!
    18) Roll a d20 to see if you're a platinum player, you know you're gonna get a 20!
    19) You got a 7, close enough!
    20) Platinum
    21) Sapphire
    22) Ruby
    23) Plot twist: Ruby and Sapphire are the same mineral, but you're a smarter person for knowing it!
    24) Enlightened Corundum
    25) Diamond
    26) Better than Diamond
    27) Super shiny rock thingy
    28) Unobtanium
    29) Moondust
    30) Star sparkles
    31) The Sun
    32) A galaxy
    33) The Universe
    34) The Universe Supreme
    35) The Universe Supreme with fries and a shake
    36) The Multiverse
    37) Chairperson of Octagon's Board



  • wickedwitch74
    wickedwitch74 Posts: 267 Mover and Shaker
    edited June 2018
    The pity is that they could vastly increase their content with very little effort.

    Seeing that we already have Standard vs. Legacy, they could provide the following...

    1. Daily Legacy Training Grounds with rotating Legacy packs/rares as prizes.
    2. Daily Standard Training Grounds with rotating Standard packs/rares as prizes.
    3. Daily PvP Event tied to current set ("Across Ixalan", for example).
    3. Weekly Block-specific events requiring users to build decks with cards from given set (IXN/RIX, for example).
    4. Weekly Rarity-specific events with exclusive prizes (cards that are only released as prizes, for example).
    5. Weekly Planeswalker-specific events like the old PW Arena.
    6. Daily Re-hash of old PVE content in story mode where prizes reset daily (like TG).
    7. Weekly Standard/Legacy PvE (solo and coalition)
    8. Weekly Standard/Legacy PvP (solo and coalition)

    Voila, this is all stuff they have done, or could easily program (they restrict by sets already... why not rarity, etc...)

    This would give users considerably more content than we currently have, give additional love to Legacy events that we miss, move older PvE content to Story Mode, and add new deck-building challenges that we all crave.
  • Mburn7
    Mburn7 Posts: 3,427 Chairperson of the Boards
    babar3355 said:

    If you are wondering, "Why are they not satisfied?  We have given them 3 new sets, including new mechanics, 5+ new events, including new overlays, and 9? new PWs since we joined last fall....  why are they still complaining?"

    The answer is, there is nothing rewarding to do in the game 95% of the time.  I can't just log in and play some content past ToTP, AX, and TG.  If you expect us to just play for the fun of it then you are really missing what makes a game engaging and addictive.  

    I agree.  There are so many good cards I have that aren't getting used simply because there is nowhere to use them.  I would love to see events with super-strict deckbuilding objectives that force me to use funky cards and combos.  

    I also like @hawkyh1 's idea to let us face specific player's decks.  That would be much easier to manage than direct PvP (although less awesome) while still allowing us to challenge each other's decks.  It would also let people optimize decks for how the AI plays them, which would make events more challenging, which would be better as well.
  • Mainloop25
    Mainloop25 Posts: 1,959 Chairperson of the Boards
      I would love to see events with super-strict deckbuilding objectives that force me to use funky cards and combos.  

    This so much! A lot of the reason I play those old PvEs is because I enjoy figuring out the best way to hit the objectives.
  • Laeuftbeidir
    Laeuftbeidir Posts: 1,841 Chairperson of the Boards
    Anything would be appreciated.
    This game is lacking endgame challenges..totally. On paper it doesn't even look that bad : three daily events, and one to two extra events? Sonds like a lot of content. If any of the devs would play at top level, they might understand that this is just no challenge at all. We've got all events already solved while being a wall for the 75% of platinum players that just can't compete on the same level. 

    A new tier would be one step, deckbuilding challenges for the daily events another. I had the most fun in weeks when I organized a small pauper challenge internally.. One day.
    Parallel challenges like kill 100 creatures etc would also give something new.
  • Gunmix25
    Gunmix25 Posts: 1,442 Chairperson of the Boards
    bken1234 said:

    Putting exclusive cards in elite packs gives me no incentive to buy anything. I bought Tendershoot and have pulled 2 more -- 800 pinkies down the drain. 

    Why they changed this rule is beyond me. Initially you couldn't get any exclusives until after the next set was released and they would add them to the booster packs. What Oktagon should be doing is keep those exclusives out of elite and booster packs until just before the next set is released and release the elite pack with them being available for jewels should anyone wish to try their luck. They should add those to the booster packs once the new set is released for those who habitually save boosters for such things as this.




  • Steve111
    Steve111 Posts: 160 Tile Toppler
    In MPQ we have 9 clearance levels which helps separate those with championed 5* characters to those who have only 4* championed, then 3* etc. Perhaps a similar concept can be applied here. 
  • Gunmix25
    Gunmix25 Posts: 1,442 Chairperson of the Boards
    FindingHeart8 said:
    Gunmix25 said:
    Mburn7 said:
    I have been saying for  (literally) a year and a half now that we need another tier. 

    Bronze

    Silver

    Gold

    Platinum

    Unobtainum!

    :D


    not enough levels, let me add to this:

    1) Look I found this thing in the woods, I think it might be metal, or it could be a rock.
    2) Yup...it was a rock.
    3) I'm pretty sure what I have is metal, but it only is solid if I keep it out of the rain.
    4) Nope, it was tin all along
    5) Well-crafted tin.
    6) Unrefined copper
    7) Bronze
    8) Rusty Silver
    9) Silver
    10) Fools Gold
    11) Actual Gold...I think
    12) Nope still Fools Gold
    13) Gold
    14) Waiting in the V.I.P. line thinking you're platinum.
    15) Finding out you weren't on this list...
    16) ...yet
    17) Waiting in the V.I.P line, you know you're a platinum player for sure this time!
    18) Roll a d20 to see if you're a platinum player, you know you're gonna get a 20!
    19) You got a 7, close enough!
    20) Platinum
    21) Sapphire
    22) Ruby
    23) Plot twist: Ruby and Sapphire are the same mineral, but you're a smarter person for knowing it!
    24) Enlightened Corundum
    25) Diamond
    26) Better than Diamond
    27) Super shiny rock thingy
    28) Unobtanium
    29) Moondust
    30) Star sparkles
    31) The Sun
    32) A galaxy
    33) The Universe
    34) The Universe Supreme
    35) The Universe Supreme with fries and a shake
    36) The Multiverse
    37) Chairperson of Octagon's Board


    perfection
  • wereotter
    wereotter Posts: 2,070 Chairperson of the Boards
    Mburn7 said:
    I have been saying for  (literally) a year and a half now that we need another tier.  Platinum was over-saturated when Amonkhet came out, let alone now.  Another solution would be to adjust the tiers to account for how many more cards there are now then there were when the tiers were created (or make only your standard collection count for tiers, someone suggested that a while ago and I thought it was a great idea)
    The current system REALLY punishes anyone who played for a while, takes a break, and then wants to come back. If I'm in platinum, delete my app, and come back in a year, I'm still in platinum, but I have few if any cards that are legal to play in events. So to that end, I agree 100% that your mastery level should be based exclusively on how many mastered cards you own that are standard legal, or maybe even how many cards not from Origins, since someone with a solid Origins collection before taking a break might still have trouble returning if those are the only cards available to play with.

    Also having standard only cards considered, it would also encourage people to use their new cards if they want to stay in their reward ranking.

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