Any 4* players thinking about transitioning to the 5* game with 4* token changes?

Daredevil217

So this was pointed out in the main thread and I thought it warranted its own discussion. 

bluewolf said:

Finally:  When vaulting was introduced, there were 44 4*'s in the game (late Feb '17) which translated to a 1.932% chance of getting a specific 4 from one Legendary pull.  Now we are at 1.308% with 65 in tokens.

That's 0.436% of getting a specific color and character.  At 20-25 CP per pull.  This translates to approximately 1200 pulls, or 24,000 - 30,000 CP to cover a 4 from scratch, but of course you will get ALL the 4's as you go.

I average about 2 LL pulls a day. So it’d take me approximately a year and 9 months to max-cover a new 4* from scratch. In that same time if you use the the magic “300 pulls” to max-cover three 5*, 1200 pulls should net you TWELVE 5* in the time it takes to max one 4.

I’ve thoroughly enjoyed the 4* game. So much so that I put off transitioning to the 5 game (which to me sounds awful). Getting to add new characters to my growing champ list every few weeks and max them out in a month has been great and has kept me playing daily, grinding on that hamster wheel. You need new characters to sustain interest otherwise you’re grinding just to grind. 

4* Spidey looks awesome. I was going to wait to bust my hoard just for him. But now it’s futile. By the time I would have him max-covered in 1-2 years, my other Spiderverse characters would have even MORE levels than him rendering him ineffective (as he needs to tank) under the new system when I finally do cover him. 

So with no new 4* to look forward to, my question is are 4* only players considering the transition? For now I’m rechamping 2s and 3s. I’m looking at a 6 million iso debt to get everything below the 5* tier where I want it and so that should keep me busy a long long time. Then I’d need another 3 million to champ the fives I have max-covered. In the time it’d take me to scrounge all that up I’m hoping the developers come to their senses or reveal that this is a small part of a bigger plan. But since we have no information at all (per usual) as to the why, I’m curious as to if others are thinking about moving up?

ThaRoadWarrior

I couldn't shift into 5* play if I wanted to right now, since my highest covered 5* is a 5/2/2 Ghost Rider with my next best covered 5* being a 3/1/2 Star Lord or a 5/1/0 Daredevil. I only have 21 4* champions though, so I'm still relatively early in the 4* game.

I am certain that this change to 4* odds is indicative of a shift to an accelerated 5* release schedule, so I think pushing us up to the 5* tier is going to happen whether we want it to or not. I mentioned it in the other thread that if the 5/5/4 release pattern becomes the new normal, 4*s are going to sit in Latest significantly longer than they would have otherwise, so dropping the idea of "latest" is probably necessary to prevent the most recent 12 releases getting disproportionately leveled. I'm expecting we'll start seeing more feeders, and multi-fed 5*s announced pretty quickly after this change goes into effect. 

Something I have considered though is moving my CP spend back to classics so I get more legendary draws for my resource spend to get my tier to usefulness.

JackTenrec

I'm not moving to the 5* game until I've at least gotten all the (former) classics champed (although I think I'm within about a half-dozen characters of that goal) -- you just can't keep pace with the resource needs without champ rewards.

Also, with only a couple of Gambit covers, I'm not in any particular rush to throw myself to the wolves.

evade420

I don't think we'll see another surge of 5* transitioners until either :

A: they release a 5* worthy of taking the crown from gambit 

B: they offer a special legendary store with gambit in it.

It's just no worth it to be a 5* PvP player and not have gambit at this point in time 

tiger92882

Daredevil217 said:

4* Spidey looks awesome. I was going to wait to bust my hoard just for him. But now it’s futile. By the time I would have him max-covered in 1-2 years, my other Spiderverse characters would have even MORE levels than him rendering him ineffective (as he needs to tank) under the new system when I finally do cover him. 

Be glad you didn't bust a hoard on him, he is horrible. Turning AP into neutral tiles (web tiles) automatically relegates him to niche uses. If the damage he prevented with his blue was dealt back to the enemy, I could see him middle level among 4s. My opinion, he's bottom level among 4s.

Dormammu

I'm thinking about it. With 20 4-stars left to champ all I have left is (mostly) the dregs and the newest 4-stars who aren't fully covered. I'm not that excited to champ Flaptain, Lockjaw, or Howard the Duck, and it usually takes me a while to fully-cover a newer 4-star, especially if I am hoarding. The token change has made it that much harder to cover those new fours.

Meanwhile, after dropping the hoard on Monday, I have my first fully-covered 5-star (Okoye) and three more at 12 covers (JJ, Spidey, and Widow). So the 5-star tier is looming right in front of me.

But there's a couple things holding me back from jumping to 5-star territory:
1) Roster diversity is at its prime when you play at the 4-star tier. Instead of being limited to always using the same three characters, we 4-star players can use 60+ 4-stars, boosted 3-stars, and our soft-capped 5-stars. That's a pretty big pool of viable characters and there are endless strategies/combinations that can be employed. It really keeps things fresh. We can also play at a high level, easily competing in the upper SCLs.

2) Gambit. This guy looms like an evil cloud, obscuring the sun and all that is good. I don't have a usable Gambit, I'm not sure I want to, and I sure as heck don't want to fight against him every time I'm in a PvP situation. That must be really dull. PvP sounds like a mess and now that I have 40+ 4-star champs I'm really starting to enjoy PvP. I'd hate to sour my experience there.

So while I'm thinking about it, I'm in no hurry to make the jump. I think I'll stay at the 4-star tier, finish champing a few more of them while soft-capping my 5-stars. I can start having fun with them without making the full plunge.

Huntah86

I actually just went ahead and champed 5* Thor and DD the other day (only had Parker champed beforehand). I was putting it off strictly because I don't have a fully covered Gambit but I don't regret it at all, they've been a blast to use.  I have every 4* champed (except Widow and Iron Spider) and have almost every 3* maxed along with a champed dupe.  I was getting bored storing up 1 mill ISO just to use it on dupes so I finally took the dive.  It just so happened to coincide with this and thus confirming my decision.

GrimSkald

Yes.  My advice for anyone wanting to move to the 5* tier is quite simply don't.  Not unless you have Gambit.  Gambit so thoroughly rules PVP that any other characters are simply fodder for the Gambit teams. Gambit/Thor is ideal, but you really need Gambit to compete in PVP, period.  It's still possible to hop to 1200 without him, but it is easily 3-4 times harder than someone with Gambit.  You have to put up your first shield earlier, and you get hit faster when you hop.

Until Gambit is nerfed, or G-d forbid they release another broken 5*, no one should transition to the 5* tier without Gambit.  It will only make the game harder.

Regardless, the negating of vaulting will have the effect of slowing down the 4-5* transition, not hastening it.  Likewise, accelerating the 5* release schedule will also make it harder.  Hopefully that's not what they're doing, as I don't think the game can sustain it, and it will end up making things worse for a lot of people...

Wonko33

Dormammu said:

But there's a couple things holding me back from jumping to 5-star territory:
1) Roster diversity is at its prime when you play at the 4-star tier. Instead of being limited to always using the same three characters, we 4-star players can use 60+ 4-stars, boosted 3-stars, and our soft-capped 5-stars. That's a pretty big pool of viable characters and there are endless strategies/combinations that can be employed. It really keeps things fresh. We can also play at a high level, easily competing in the upper SCLs.

yes , playing the same 2 guys over and over would make me quit this game for sure. It's fun too see which 4*s are boosted and find the best combo for the week

Blindman13

I am at the tipping point.  I have all 4's champed except the most recent five, which are waiting on covers.
I have three 5's fully covered (Strange, Ghost Rider, and Gambit), but all are in the very low 300's levels.
I tell myself that I will make the jump once I have the ISO to champ all 3 at once, but my 2 * and 3* farm has been eating all my ISO.  
I'm disappointed in the 4* token changes, but don't see it changing my plans.  It does mean it will take me longer to champ the new 4's, so my ISO stores may grow quicker allowing me to make the jump slightly faster.

Daredevil217

GrimSkald said:

Yes.  My advice for anyone wanting to move to the 5* tier is quite simply don't.  Not unless you have Gambit.  Gambit so thoroughly rules PVP that any other characters are simply fodder for the Gambit teams. Gambit/Thor is ideal, but you really need Gambit to compete in PVP, period.  It's still possible to hop to 1200 without him, but it is easily 3-4 times harder than someone with Gambit.  You have to put up your first shield earlier, and you get hit faster when you hop.

I actually have Gambit, Thor, Daredevil, Jessica Jones and Green Goblin max-covered (but level 255).

I also have Angel, Panther and Ghost Rider at 11 covers and Thanos at 9 (though he’s an awful 1/4/4). 

Wonko33 said:

Dormammu said:

But there's a couple things holding me back from jumping to 5-star territory:
1) Roster diversity is at its prime when you play at the 4-star tier. Instead of being limited to always using the same three characters, we 4-star players can use 60+ 4-stars, boosted 3-stars, and our soft-capped 5-stars. That's a pretty big pool of viable characters and there are endless strategies/combinations that can be employed. It really keeps things fresh. We can also play at a high level, easily competing in the upper SCLs.

yes , playing the same 2 guys over and over would make me quit this game for sure. It's fun too see which 4*s are boosted and find the best combo for the week

I agree strongly with both of you. I love the 4* tier. But part of what made it fun was an influx of new characters to try with my old ones and to come up with fun new combos. Now it seems like 5s will be covered at a much faster rate even if they don’t accelerate the release schedule due to them not touching their solution to 5* dilution while wrecking their solution to 4* dilution. 

tiger92882 said:

Daredevil217 said:

4* Spidey looks awesome. I was going to wait to bust my hoard just for him. But now it’s futile. By the time I would have him max-covered in 1-2 years, my other Spiderverse characters would have even MORE levels than him rendering him ineffective (as he needs to tank) under the new system when I finally do cover him. 

Be glad you didn't bust a hoard on him, he is horrible. Turning AP into neutral tiles (web tiles) automatically relegates him to niche uses. If the damage he prevented with his blue was dealt back to the enemy, I could see him middle level among 4s. My opinion, he's bottom level among 4s.

Strongly disagree. His battery potential with Miles and heal potential with Gwen is off the charts. Spidey can flood the board with a “neutral” tile, but those neutral tiles mean huge nukes, healing, and alll the AP you could ever want. Yes he is hamstrung to certain characters in the same way Carnage is. Just like Carnage, he can make other not so great characters much better (Kraven) and with the right pairing can create one of the best teams in the tier (Medusa). I’m pretty sure while Pete/Miles won’t knock off the guardians meta, they will be at least Carndusa level good. No way he’s bottom tier with Miles and/or Gwen.  

But it we’ll see who’s right...

in a couple years!

Straycat

Anyone with your roster would be "considering the transition". Most probably would have already.

Dilution or not, you reached the end of the 4* tier.

Daredevil217

I mean, I wasn’t before this change. The beauty of the 4* tier is there is no end. Every month I’d have a new toy or two (depending on hoarding) to take for a spin. New combos to try out. I had a blast knowing there was another character around the corner to try out. I didn’t want to give that up just to have to play the same two characters every single match (whatever combo of my would-be 5-champs is best... probably Thorbit?).  

I was (and still am) trying to champ dupe 3s and keep the mains just so I have options to play with my 4s and to invest in something other than 5s.

TranscendGod

I'm a 4* player with 67/68 champed 4s and 45/47 max champ 3s. I've had more fun playing MPQ this past year than ever before. I play with an incredible variety of teams against reasonably diverse opponents. Some events are better than others, but I'm often able to queue many combinations of 3*s, 4*s, and randomly covered 5*s. Everything I've heard about the 5* tier makes it sound less fun. It makes sense to transition if you enjoy playing high level PVP, or you want top 5 CL9 PVE. But if you're like me and you enjoy using many different characters, 4* land reigns supreme. When I have time, I make teams that feature every single boosted 3* and 4* in each event. Plus a few teams that are just fun to play. I've climbed simulator from 0-2000 with a unique team in each match. 0-1200 in simulator is perhaps my favorite MPQ experience because of all the different kinds of teams I get to play against . I even use 2* obw occasionally.

In response to this change, I opened part of my heroic hoard yesterday (1203 heroics) to champ the 5 most recent 4*s. I'm in the fortunate position of only missing the new spiderman (currently 2/3/3), and I still have over 900 heroics to try to champ him when he's added to packs. I figure I can keep up reasonably well with bonus heroes without having to resort to my legendary hoard. I'll transition when I think the 5* meta is more fun than the 4* meta. As far as I can tell, balance in the 5* tier is atrocious and diversity is terrible.

If they stop releasing 4s, I'll be tempted to transition eventually. Until then, I'll keep hoarding.

GrimSkald

Daredevil217 said:

GrimSkald said:

Yes.  My advice for anyone wanting to move to the 5* tier is quite simply don't.  Not unless you have Gambit.  Gambit so thoroughly rules PVP that any other characters are simply fodder for the Gambit teams. Gambit/Thor is ideal, but you really need Gambit to compete in PVP, period.  It's still possible to hop to 1200 without him, but it is easily 3-4 times harder than someone with Gambit.  You have to put up your first shield earlier, and you get hit faster when you hop.

I actually have Gambit, Thor, Daredevil, Jessica Jones and Green Goblin max-covered (but level 255).

I also have Angel, Panther and Ghost Rider at 11 covers and Thanos at 9 (though he’s an awful 1/4/4). 

You're in a really good position to transition to the 5* tier if you want to - GamThor rules the roost at the moment though we'll see if Okoye shakes things up.  You probably could level your 5*s some if you wanted to - popular wisdom says high 300s, but I'd look around for confirmation on that before you did. If I were you I'd wait to see if the nerf happens and what happens to the meta after it. I feel sure they will nerf him sooner or later - as more and more people transition to the 5* tier and can't compete it worsen the situation to the point where it will really threaten to kill the game...

Daredevil217 said:

tiger92882 said:

Be glad you didn't bust a hoard on him, he is horrible. Turning AP into neutral tiles (web tiles) automatically relegates him to niche uses. If the damage he prevented with his blue was dealt back to the enemy, I could see him middle level among 4s. My opinion, he's bottom level among 4s.

Strongly disagree. His battery potential with Miles and heal potential with Gwen is off the charts. Spidey can flood the board with a “neutral” tile, but those neutral tiles mean huge nukes, healing, and alll the AP you could ever want. Yes he is hamstrung to certain characters in the same way Carnage is. Just like Carnage, he can make other not so great characters much better (Kraven) and with the right pairing can create one of the best teams in the tier (Medusa). I’m pretty sure while Pete/Miles won’t knock off the guardians meta, they will be at least Carndusa level good. No way he’s bottom tier with Miles and/or Gwen.  

But it we’ll see who’s right...

in a couple years!

Heh. I collected data on how long it takes to cover a 4* - based on my numbers prior to vaulting it seems 6-9 months is normal for someone opening as many LTs as myself (Average 3 per day, basically.) I'd add a month or two to that because of more dilution...

dramatist

I will be starting the transition sometime fairly soon. Mostly because I'm almost done with the 4*s. The last 100+ Legendary tokens I have opened I have only gotten a 14th cover for one 4* (Kraven) I have 6 left to champ now, but they will be soft capped before long. I also have 3*s getting rechamped fairly often so Iso is going there. 

I have 5*s Daredevil, Gambit, Thor, Archangel, Silver Surfer, Phoenix and Ghost Rider at 13 covers now. When I get a 14th for someone I will definitely champ.

Straycat

Daredevil217 said:

I mean, I wasn’t before this change. The beauty of the 4* tier is there is no end. Every month I’d have a new toy or two (depending on hoarding) to take for a spin. New combos to try out. I had a blast knowing there was another character around the corner to try out. I didn’t want to give that up just to have to play the same two characters every single match (whatever combo of my would-be 5-champs is best... probably Thorbit?).  

I was (and still am) trying to champ dupe 3s and keep the mains just so I have options to play with my 4s and to invest in something other than 5s.

To be fair, you are talking about 1 4* right now.  And without this change, in another season you would have had all 4*s champed. That's effectively the end.You said it yourself, you are creating your own hurdles to stop you from moving to the 5* tier. Yea, the 4* tier is cool, but if Iron Spidey is the only thing keeping you there, maybe you're ready to move on.

Daredevil217

I’m considering it more and more. Iso shortage is the other huge thing holding me back. I would want to champ 4 at once (DD, Thor, Gambit, Jones). That’s a lot of iso. Bringing them up slowly together makes sense, but all my iso is currently invested in building farms at the moment. I also want to finish off 4* Widow, Thing, and Thor.

Which is just as well because this is a pretty big shift in the game and it’ll be interesting to see if there’s something more coming down the pipeline. 

TPF Alexis

I'm kind of wondering if this might be part of a lead-in to making 4* covers more reliably available. It's not going to matter so much if they're harder to cover through Tokens if more of their covers are available regularly through Progression, DDQ, etc.

crackninja

Something to consider, from someone who held off going to the 5* tier for a few months:  pve is significantly easier/faster now, and if I choose to use my 4* characters instead, I can.
For pvp I use gambthor almost exclusively, it's true, but I actually see a ton of variety among opponents.  The weekly boosts meant that I used to see the same 2 boosted 4* champs + the essential teams constantly, now it's more of a mix.  And the grockmoradusa saturation in the simulator...easy to beat or not, they are a much higher % of the 4* sim teams than anything I've seen in the 5* tier.

BlackBoltRocks

crackninja said:

Something to consider, from someone who held off going to the 5* tier for a few months:  pve is significantly easier/faster now, and if I choose to use my 4* characters instead, I can.
For pvp I use gambthor almost exclusively, it's true, but I actually see a ton of variety among opponents.  The weekly boosts meant that I used to see the same 2 boosted 4* champs + the essential teams constantly, now it's more of a mix.  And the grockmoradusa saturation in the simulator...easy to beat or not, they are a much higher % of the 4* sim teams than anything I've seen in the 5* tier.

This right here. The talk of Gambit-infested PvP is somewhat exaggerated.