Support removal choosing Treasures needs to stop

Quantius

Supports are pretty dangerous right now and we need to be able to kill them, but the game just farts out treasures constantly and they seem to be the only thing getting popped. It'd be nice if support destruction didn't go after these.

Oh, and also, the indestructible event supports should never be a target.

Mburn7

I agree its annoying, but it was the same thing with clues.  Just need to find a workaround (destroy multiple at once, if possible).

And as far as I know the only card that still targets the indestructible ones is Demolish, which is definitely a bug

Rhasget

A card that specifically targets a certain support (at a higher cost ofc) would be a nice counter for some decks.
There are quite a few removal options but they are mostly the same with either destroying only non-lands or adds a card draw when cast as the options.

It will be a sad day when Rivers Rebuke rotates out.

BigSwifty

I definitely agree with this. A targetable support destruction at a significantly higher cost than demystify and the randoms would be such a great addition. And if it is devisied, perhaps Vraska's first ability could be tweaked to accommodate it.

Kresgwyr

Quantius said:

Oh, and also, the indestructible event supports should never be a target.

Imo, this is the most urgent thing to fix. 

You can get stuck pretty badly in RtO even with support removal, because support removal almost always target the indestructible token ... It should never happen in the first place.

Brakkis

Mburn7 said:

I agree its annoying, but it was the same thing with clues.  Just need to find a workaround (destroy multiple at once, if possible).

And as far as I know the only card that still targets the indestructible ones is Demolish, which is definitely a bug

Nissa's Defeat likes those indestructible supports too.

Gunmix25

I personally see treasures as a strategic facet of the game to protect supports that can be removed very easily these days.

DBJones

Yeah, that messed me up last time. The support destruction creatures hit the indestructible supports too. As to the main topic, I think all support destruction should hit non-token supports first. The number of supports that can easily determine the outcome of the game is really high right now, we really should have a good chance of hitting them. Especially with how often the AI hits mine. Seriously, I usually have several supports out, and I can often call which one the AI will hit just because it would be the most inconvenient for me. I think it's my luck, and I'd be fine if I got the same in return, but I have better luck getting rid of the most annoying supports with Path to Discovery than support removal.

Kinesia

Brakkis said:

Mburn7 said:

I agree its annoying, but it was the same thing with clues.  Just need to find a workaround (destroy multiple at once, if possible).

And as far as I know the only card that still targets the indestructible ones is Demolish, which is definitely a bug

Nissa's Defeat likes those indestructible supports too.

From what I could see Zhalfarin's Void could be targetted by _anything_ including creatures where previous invulnerable supports were only targettable by demolish. So demolish has a problem but also that particular invulnerable support seems different from the previous ones.

We REALLY need some support destruction that is not just "destroy opponents support" but rather "destroy non-token support" or "destroy support with more than 1 shield" etc. These are easy to code and add variety.

wereotter

Agreed. Though this is hardly a new problem.

see also: clues, servos

DBJones

Kinesia said:

Brakkis said:

Mburn7 said:

I agree its annoying, but it was the same thing with clues.  Just need to find a workaround (destroy multiple at once, if possible).

And as far as I know the only card that still targets the indestructible ones is Demolish, which is definitely a bug

Nissa's Defeat likes those indestructible supports too.

From what I could see Zhalfarin's Void could be targetted by _anything_ including creatures where previous invulnerable supports were only targettable by demolish. So demolish has a problem but also that particular invulnerable support seems different from the previous ones.

We REALLY need some support destruction that is not just "destroy opponents support" but rather "destroy non-token support" or "destroy support with more than 1 shield" etc. These are easy to code and add variety.

Nah, I was talking about the RtO supports when I mentioned Nissa's Defeat messing me up by targeting them (it happened on Monday specifically). I've also seen those Origins elves repeatedly target the indestructible supports, though that was a couple weeks ago.

tfg76

I wonder if the lack of targetable support removal is mostly a UI issue - hard to select the correct gem?

Kinesia

Interesting... I know that I changed from demolish to the cycling ones and they wouldn't cast with just the invulnerable ones. hmmm...

Quantius

wereotter said:

Agreed. Though this is hardly a new problem.

see also: clues, servos

I just started playing with HOD, so I didn't know about it. But, I do know that you can't mill your opponent to death and Lich's Mastery is a thing now, so Lich's Mastery + Treasures = what's the point of destruction support spells?

Mburn7

tfg76 said:

I wonder if the lack of targetable support removal is mostly a UI issue - hard to select the correct gem?

That's a really good point, never thought of that.  My fat fingers would definitely mess it up with 2 supports next to each other.

Gunmix25

Quantius said:

wereotter said:

Agreed. Though this is hardly a new problem.

see also: clues, servos

I just started playing with HOD, so I didn't know about it. But, I do know that you can't mill your opponent to death and Lich's Mastery is a thing now, so Lich's Mastery + Treasures = what's the point of destruction support spells?

Again … to quote the high priest of the rapids, Babar, "Riverbuke, Baby!" lol

As much as we disagree... he does make a good point about Riverbuke and its effectiveness. Urza's Blast is good too, although I am not sure it will affect Lich. is it a Historic card?

Quantius

Lich's Master is legendary so it should be historic. And as much as I do use River's Rebuke (and I have Akroma's Vengeance) . . . that still leaves a lot of PW's that don't have access to those two cards.

But I'm not asking for nerfs to Lich's Mastery, I'm saying that support destruction targeting a token support that can get pumped out like they're nothing is bad. Not only do they get produced quickly, cheaply, and in quantities, but nodes can have them spawn (i.e. Across Ixalan where the game just makes them every few turns).

wereotter

DBJones said:

Kinesia said:

Brakkis said:

Mburn7 said:

I agree its annoying, but it was the same thing with clues.  Just need to find a workaround (destroy multiple at once, if possible).

And as far as I know the only card that still targets the indestructible ones is Demolish, which is definitely a bug

Nissa's Defeat likes those indestructible supports too.

From what I could see Zhalfarin's Void could be targetted by _anything_ including creatures where previous invulnerable supports were only targettable by demolish. So demolish has a problem but also that particular invulnerable support seems different from the previous ones.

We REALLY need some support destruction that is not just "destroy opponents support" but rather "destroy non-token support" or "destroy support with more than 1 shield" etc. These are easy to code and add variety.

Nah, I was talking about the RtO supports when I mentioned Nissa's Defeat messing me up by targeting them (it happened on Monday specifically). I've also seen those Origins elves repeatedly target the indestructible supports, though that was a couple weeks ago.

I don’t think support destroy targets the unkillable node supports, but Nissa’s Defeat will always cast even without a support in play to just draw a card. 

Kinesia

It's also just BORING that almost all support destruction is "Destroy opponent's support." Boring!

At least damage has different numbers and different target options and things.

Demystify was a breath of fresh air (even though it's not particular useful as a variation).


We need things like:
non-token
highest shield
most reinforced
lowest shield non-token
target support (A very expensive version)

things are now possible that weren't before like:
destroy opponents support prioritising auras
destroy opponents support prioritising equipment
destroy opponents support prioritising land
(Prioritising rather than just blah because you still want it to work if they don't have that type, just not as predictably, back to our current behaviour)


River's rebuke goes overboard (ha!), it needs to be rained back in some manner but we do need multi support killers of some kind more generally accessible.
Things like "Destroy all token supports and your opponents highest shield support"  (Again, expensive)

Rhasget

Is there a way to stop/slow supportdecks from casting at all?

I would like to build a deck to avoid getting hit by some ETB effects from supports.
Wryn Nightmare is the only card I can come up with directly and Divest can discard a support (but also a  creature so not reliable).
There are a few cards that specifically drains creature mana and spell mana and with AKH you had Disposess that could slow a support deck but that is gone.

Laeuftbeidir

Rhasget said:

Is there a way to stop/slow supportdecks from casting at all?

I would like to build a deck to avoid getting hit by some ETB effects from supports.
Wryn Nightmare is the only card I can come up with directly and Divest can discard a support (but also a  creature so not reliable).
There are a few cards that specifically drains creature mana and spell mana and with AKH you had Disposess that could slow a support deck but that is gone.

That could be dispossess, a card I don't like to use.. But if I knew I'd face a lockdown heavy deck, I'd consider it