Jodah and raff capashen don't combo?

andrewvanmarle

It seems like rafs discount doesn't apply on cards that jodah affects? 

Mburn7

1)  Good, because that would be OP as all hell

2)  I think its because Raff's discount applies when the card enters your hand, and Jodah's applies at the start of the turn, overruling it.  Or they just made it so no discounts apply over Jodah's (for why, see 1)

khurram

It does apply. 

It's not "OP as all hell". I wish people would stop casually just throwing around comments like that for card interactions they haven't tried themselves.
Flat Mana gain from Jodah is no joke.

And the time you put into setting the combo is mostly just immeddiatley undone by Greg.

Mburn7

khurram said:

It does apply. 

It's not "OP as all hell". I wish people would stop casually just throwing around comments like that for card interactions they haven't tried themselves.
Flat Mana gain from Jodah is no joke.

And the time you put into setting the combo is mostly just immeddiatley undone by Greg.

I actually have tried it.  Jodah makes everything in your hand cost 6 (at the start of the turn).  Raff would make your hand cost 3, which is coincidentally what you get for any match after he evens out your bonuses.  That means it becomes 1 match = 1 card, which is very powerful.  Combine that with some card draw and a cascade or 2 and you have OP as all hell, as I said.

ElfNeedsFood

Jodah applies to cards you have in your hand when the turn starts but not the cards you draw during the turn, limiting his loop capabilities quite a bit.

Even if Raff and Jhoira’s familiar could combine with him, you are limited to at most six cards per turn for a three card combo. He’s interesting but not the next HUF...

Tilwin90

Once again we run into a situation that due to a lack of explicit and clearly laid down rulings we can only guess.
If this were paper magic I would say that:
- Jodah applies an until end of turn effect on the cards at the beginning of the turn making all cards in hand cost 6. That sets their "current cost" to 6.
- Raff applies a continuous effect that reduces the cost of historics by 3. This reduction applies at all times. Similar to this you could have wizard's lightning (the pseudo lightning bolt spell) that in the presence of a wizard would also benefit from this cost reduction. 
Therefore your cards would have their current cost set to 6, then reduced by 3 if they are historic. Powerful? Yes. But if you let your opponent stick those two creatures to the board it is what it is.

It's similar in paper magic where if I am not mistaken, if an effect instructs you to pay say 2 more to play any card, all your cards could be cast for 2wurgb instead of just wurgb. 

andrewvanmarle

The reason I asked is because I played days undoing with jodah and raff.

Essentially all the historic cards should be free, but they have 3 mana left to pay, all of them.


I disagree wit the OP ness of the combo: it requires 2 creatured with a combined cost of 29. and the effect doesnt happen after the draw phase, so next turn only with what you had in hand allready.

Cheaper cards become 6 too, and the flat mana gain is is really harsh.

It's'a slow slow combo that actually only pays of with legacy cards (deploy, behold the beyond etc)

khurram

andrewvanmarle said:

The reason I asked is because I played days undoing with jodah and raff.

Essentially all the historic cards should be free, but they have 3 mana left to pay, all of them.


I disagree wit the OP ness of the combo: it requires 2 creatured with a combined cost of 29. and the effect doesnt happen after the draw phase, so next turn only with what you had in hand allready.

Cheaper cards become 6 too, and the flat mana gain is is really harsh.

It's'a slow slow combo that actually only pays of with legacy cards (deploy, behold the beyond etc)

Jodah changes cost of cards at the start of the turn for only the cards in your hand at the time. If you cast days undoing and draw fresh historic cards, they won't be affected by jodah.

bk1234

Why not just play Raff with Days Undoing and dump your whole hand every turn?

This seems much more broken. 

Tilwin90

The fact that they combined cost 29 is more or less relevant. I am not saying mana curve is unimportant in MTGPQ. I cannot stress to people how often they tend to use overcosted cards for the wrong purposes.
Yet experience has shown me that gishath gets its value worth fast... Really fast. Even if only for blocking 2 creatures or attracting removal very often I get a free zacama or maybe only an etali out of it. It is not your life saver of the deck and definitely not THE card I would rely on to stabilize my board. But still I play it much more often than I imagined I would. In a win in 10 turns or less objective match nonetheless. 😁

Mburn7

bken1234 said:

Why not just play Raff with Days Undoing and dump your whole hand every turn?

This seems much more broken. 

I thought that was what Jhoira and Raff together would do, but there aren't that many 6 cost or less Historic cards to use.

Raff and Behold the Beyond (in legacy) might be pretty nasty, though.  Or maybe Jhoira and Raff and the Familiar (if its fixed) to make everything cost 8 or less free.

bk1234

I'm playing Jodah with Days and StV -- pretty much a hand dump every turn. 

In legacy I add Baral to the mix. 

Will try with Raff in Standard and see how it goes. 

andrewvanmarle

Stv? What is Tthat?

Never mi d: storm the vault

Laeuftbeidir

andrewvanmarle said:

Stv? What is Tthat? 

Storm the vault. The really not OP card we silently agreed on not speaking about

khurram

Alright, I tried it again and it appears that Raff indeed doesn't combo with Jodah. Now I know why I remembered that set up to suck so bad.

What's more, Jhiora also doesn't combo with Raff. He reduces the cost but she does not give 3 mana.

khurram

Laeuftbeidir said:

andrewvanmarle said:

Stv? What is Tthat? 

Storm the vault. The really not OP card we silently agreed on not speaking about

Yes. It's funny how no one has said anything about it on the forums. I remember the rage I felt when I faced it for the first time. Of course I did not own it back then.

Mburn7

khurram said:

Alright, I tried it again and it appears that Raff indeed doesn't combo with Jodah. Now I know why I remembered that set up to suck so bad.

What's more, Jhiora also doesn't combo with Raff. He reduces the cost but she does not give 3 mana.

That sounds like a bug.  Jhoira should give 3 mana to the card she draws regardless of what else is going on.

hawkyh1

isn't it raff reduces the cost of historic cards in your hand
by 3 and then at the beginning of your turn jodah changes
the mana cost of that card (from whatever it is) to 6?

HH

andrewvanmarle

hawkyh1 said:

isn't it raff reduces the cost of historic cards in your hand
by 3 and then at the beginning of your turn jodah changes
the mana cost of that card (from whatever it is) to 6?

HH

True, but logic would imply that raff is persistent and will affect even after jodah's'effect.

just like claustrophobia's  disable: if you hit the creature with an enable spell, it will immediatly be diabled again while hixus has a specific moment it hits with the disable: when the creature attacks. So hitting that with an enable spell -will- enable it

Tilwin90

hawkyh1 said:

isn't it raff reduces the cost of historic cards in your hand
by 3 and then at the beginning of your turn jodah changes
the mana cost of that card (from whatever it is) to 6?

HH

Once again paper magic has means of dealing with this gracefully.

Raff has a continuous effect. Think of it as similar to Sphinx's decree that prevents casting all spells, even those you draw later on. Raff is worded similar. It simply states "historic cards in hand cost 3 less to cast"

Jodah puts a one shot "until end of turn" effect on your cards in hand. Yes, only on the cards you had on hand at the beginning of your turn. A similar effect would be history of benalia that gives all knights you control first strike and +2/+1. Nobody questions why a vona that enters the battlefield the same turn does not benefit from this effect.

Again, there is a big difference between an immediate effect (triggered by a permanent, as a result when a spell is cast etc.) and a continuous effect (attached to a permanent you control).

A trickier effect is something like exert influence which changes ownership. But here it's not the case to go in all that. 

ElfNeedsFood

Jhoira does combo with Raff. She only gives the three mana to the card she lets you draw as a result of playing the Historic card though. If that card happens to also be Historic, it will both be cheaper and have three mana. Jhoira’s familiar combos too.