Infinite Loop Needs Urgent Attention [Fixed in 2.7.1]

Steve111

Just played against a deck using Naru Meha, Master Wizard and Siren’s Ruse.

Siren’s Ruse is used on the newly summoned Naru Meha, Naru Meha creates a copy of Siren’s Ruse, Siren’s Ruse brings Naru Meha back into play, Naru Meha creates a copy of Siren’s Ruse, repeat cycle until the end of time. 

I had to quit the game. It was never going to end.

//Edited Title -Brigby

khurram

Well, yes. The full combo involves ID.

They did not get a chance to put that one on gem board for you.

Steve111

Just speaking as someone who would occasionally like to win a game, there is a problem with quick infinite loops that grant easy victories to the AI.

An obvious fix is that Naru Meha should be limited to creating just one copy of a spell. 

Szamsziel

It should be treated as baral. Create copy, but allow to play it next turn.

khurram

Naru Meha is alright but not a very exceptional mythic. But yes, please nerf her to the ground because of this one interaction.

Steve111

When the one interaction can prevent the game from ever ending, it is worth reviewing. 

DumasAG

making it a cast trigger instead of an etb would solve the problem, but I'd rather find a solution that changes ruse, since that's a card nobody uses anyway. Maybe have it return the creature at end of turn and make it cantrip?

ZW2007-

This does seem to be a problematic combo for the health of the game. In the players hands, the combo can lead to a win which is fine because it might take a while to set up. In the hands of the AI it turns into quite the troll deck because the AI prioritizes creatures over supports and obviously can cast Naru before ID and get stuck in a loop.

The best solution is to adjust how Siren's Ruse works, as DumasAG suggested. No reason to change a brand new mythic for the worse because of one broken and strange interaction.

jtwood

khurram said:

Naru Meha is alright but not a very exceptional mythic. But yes, please nerf her to the ground because of this one interaction.

Nah man, this is gross and definitely needs to be proactively addressed.

Brakkis

Just make Siren's Ruse return creature to your hand at the end of your turn, with full mana. That way it can come right back out after you match gems on your next turn no worse for wear. Stops this infinite loop in it's tracks.

Bil

Brakkis said:

Just make Siren's Ruse return creature to your hand at the end of your turn, with full mana. That way it can come right back out after you match gems on your next turn no worse for wear. Stops this infinite loop in it's tracks.

   Then your creature will suffer summoning sickness, that's a big diference and it also ruins one of the only use for siren's ruse, which is to be able to trigger again an ETB when you need it (and not on the next turn).
  The interaction beetween naru and ruse is problematic, but it would make more sense to fix the problem from naru by changing his ability to "when you cast naru meha, copy the first spell in hand, it gains full mana". Mustnt be too hard as the "when you cast" mechanic already exists.

Brigby

Hi Everyone. Thanks for providing this information. I can confirm that this issue is in our database marked as a Critical bug, and the development team will be looking into a solution for it as soon as possible.

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Barbelith42

It would be nice if they could just ban combos, ie if naru meha is in your deck then sirens ruse is restricted and vice versa. If there are 9, 3 or less cost artifacts or historic cards jhoira could make infinite loop of doom too lol

Gunmix25

Barbelith42 said:

It would be nice if they could just ban combos, ie if naru meha is in your deck then sirens ruse is restricted and vice versa. If there are 9, 3 or less cost artifacts or historic cards jhoira could make infinite loop of doom too lol

No. Banning opens a door that we can't close once we cross over. Better to adjust going forward

Brakkis

Bil said:

Brakkis said:

Just make Siren's Ruse return creature to your hand at the end of your turn, with full mana. That way it can come right back out after you match gems on your next turn no worse for wear. Stops this infinite loop in it's tracks.

   Then your creature will suffer summoning sickness, that's a big diference and it also ruins one of the only use for siren's ruse, which is to be able to trigger again an ETB when you need it (and not on the next turn).

It's also to remove negative effects on a creature such as disable, or to reset the creatures power/toughness if it's been negatively effected. You are naming only one use. Doing this will only stop ETB effects from doubling/tripling/quadrupling/etc. the effect each turn which is what causes loop problems in the first place and this prevents that.

Bil

Brakkis said:

Bil said:

Brakkis said:

Just make Siren's Ruse return creature to your hand at the end of your turn, with full mana. That way it can come right back out after you match gems on your next turn no worse for wear. Stops this infinite loop in it's tracks.

   Then your creature will suffer summoning sickness, that's a big diference and it also ruins one of the only use for siren's ruse, which is to be able to trigger again an ETB when you need it (and not on the next turn).

It's also to remove negative effects on a creature such as disable, or to reset the creatures power/toughness if it's been negatively effected. You are naming only one use. Doing this will only stop ETB effects from doubling/tripling/quadrupling/etc. the effect each turn which is what causes loop problems in the first place and this prevents that.

That's right, but in the way i see it the etb instant repeat is what makes ruse likely to be added in a deck. The loopy interaction is the problem, not the way the ruse works. If naru can't chain cast the ruse, the problem is solved. Ruse will still behave the same, which is good as a next turn version would be less interesting. Naru would almost remain the same except it won't trigger when fetched from anywhere (or with ruse). That seemed more logical to me than changing ruse to something worse.

Brakkis

Siren's Ruse is meant to be used as a reset button, not a repeat button.

Bil

  Thats an interesting assertion. We are going off-topic here but you just made me curious so i'll ask anyway...
  As the paper version isn't only used as a reset (its actually also an etb repeat and/or a creature protection card), did you get any information from the dev team to be so confident about how it is meant to be used?
   
   I would say that creature debuffs being marginaly played in this game and bounce, exile or destruction spell being a better way to deal with enemy creatures, i'm not sure this card could see much use as a stat/ability reset.
   However, instantly triggering again a boomship, slim voda, archangel of sanctions or any heavy etb effect is actually quite powerful and much more likely to give a value to siren's ruse.
  That's just a personal point of view though.

Gunmix25

Brakkis said:

Siren's Ruse is meant to be used as a reset button, not a repeat button.

I could hold a full hand of nothing but charged Siren's ruse and cast them all one after another. The effect on how Siren's ruse is cast is exactly the same as how the Naru Meha combo works. Naru Meha simply fills the first card in hand and makes a copy of that same card and the filled card casts; the part of whom you target is on the player, not the card. Siren's Ruse cannot effectively repeat itself on its own. I can use your statement for almost any card... including HUF. Which means the issue is not Siren's Ruse but how Naru Meha can manipulate lengthy to small loop combos with other specific cards.

techmarine5

If they want to break the combo, which I would be sad at, they could simply buff siren's ruse to draw a card, and then draw an extra if you have a pirate.
If not, they could just increase qos by adding a option to turn off animations and, if possible, add a way for the ai to detect when it's doing nothing.