Support: Royal Talon Fighter (5/21/18)

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Comments

  • HoundofShadowHoundofShadow Posts: 3,505 Chairperson of the Boards
    I agree with how the two of you: Clamps2 and bluewolf arrive at the odds because that is how I would calculate the odds if I didn't assume that they split the odds for Latest and Vintage support  like how they done it for Latest and Classic 4*Privacy.
  • dr tinykittylovedr tinykittylove Posts: 1,459 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited May 2018
    I haven't had time or energy enough to comment on much of anything, but I really want them to stop offering the 250cp deals for supports and hope absolutely nobody buys them. 

    It is utterly the worst, worst deal possible in mpq. I'd buy iso before I buy that. Nobody should buy it. It actually makes me angry seeing it. 

    1. You don't need to have the new supports right now. 
    In fact, you don't need to have any supports at all. They're amusing to think about sure, having Lucky the pizza dog romping around Thor's feet or Wong faffing around in the background while Strange does his thing, and occasionally something useful happens. Little practical value, and they don't even offer entertainment in the form of bonus animations! 

    2. Supports are currently overvalued
    Supports are new and the devs are still feeling out how to work them into the economy. You've seen them go from a 1/80 4*/LT value in vaults to 3/80 2* value, and riso reward in nodes increase from 3 to 10. That's going to continue to undergo adjustments because it's clearly still too slow to plan for levelling those you get. 

    3. Supports do not benefit from early adoption. 
    Unlike a character, if you don't have a support now, the instant you pull one it will be exactly as usable as if you got it last month (not very, but let's not split hairline distinctions in percentages...). 

    4. 250cp is worth one of these options:
    A. Two critical covers to champ one or two 4* characters, who will be essential in pve, and boosted every few weeks for both pve and pvp, and who will continue to grow in power and provide champion rewards over time. 

    B. 10 covers from Latest Legends, potentially 10.5 4*s including bonus heroes, potentially multiply 5*s, who are the end game and frequently essential in pve for better node and placement rewards for 6 weeks. 

    C. 12.5+ covers from Classic Legends, again potentially 4/5* covers blah blah blah.

    D. 1 set, unselectable 4* cover, a few Support tokens and a handful of dust- I mean riso. You know what you can get with those tokens? Proxima Midnight. Who at Rank 4 may give red ap to the supported villain character. 

    You know what villain characters have active red powers?

    ZERO 5*s.
    ONE 4* - Carnage
    THREE 3*s - Magneto, Rags, Sentry. 

    I can see how well they've thought out these supports. Proxima is just one example, I'm not going to go through the others. 

    MPQ is a slow, roster building game and CP is the currency that fuels progress in this most vital aspect. 

    The CP offer is an offer to poke a hole in your tires in exchange for a fidget spinner. Don't buy it. 

  • PhumadePhumade Posts: 1,955 Chairperson of the Boards
    \

    1. You don't need to have the new supports right now. 
    In fact, you don't need to have any supports at all. They're amusing to think about sure, having Lucky the pizza dog romping around Thor's feet or Wong faffing around in the background while Strange does his thing, and occasionally something useful happens. Little practical value, and they don't even offer entertainment in the form of bonus animations! 

    2. Supports are currently overvalued
    Supports are new and the devs are still feeling out how to work them into the economy. You've seen them go from a 1/80 4*/LT value in vaults to 3/80 2* value, and riso reward in nodes increase from 3 to 10. That's going to continue to undergo adjustments because it's clearly still too slow to plan for levelling those you get. 

    3. Supports do not benefit from early adoption. 
    Unlike a character, if you don't have a support now, the instant you pull one it will be exactly as usable as if you got it last month (not very, but let's not split hairline distinctions in percentages...). 

    4. 250cp is worth one of these options:
    A. Two critical covers to champ one or two 4* characters, who will be essential in pve, and boosted every few weeks for both pve and pvp, and who will continue to grow in power and provide champion rewards over time. 

    B. 10 covers from Latest Legends, potentially 10.5 4*s including bonus heroes, potentially multiply 5*s, who are the end game and frequently essential in pve for better node and placement rewards for 6 weeks. 

    C. 12.5+ covers from Classic Legends, again potentially 4/5* covers blah blah blah.

    D. 1 set, unselectable 4* cover, a few Support tokens and a handful of dust- I mean riso. You know what you can get with those tokens? Proxima Midnight. Who at Rank 4 may give red ap to the supported villain character. 

    I would disagree with points 1 and 3.

    If your a high level pve competitor,  I.e. you play for T2 placements in scl9,  you can't afford to ignore supports.

    The margin of error is less than 5 min per sub. and even at level 40, the supports make a tangible difference in the hard and and essential nodes.


  • SpudgutterSpudgutter Posts: 732 Critical Contributor
    edited May 2018
    Phumade said:
    \

    1. You don't need to have the new supports right now. 
    In fact, you don't need to have any supports at all. They're amusing to think about sure, having Lucky the pizza dog romping around Thor's feet or Wong faffing around in the background while Strange does his thing, and occasionally something useful happens. Little practical value, and they don't even offer entertainment in the form of bonus animations! 

    2. Supports are currently overvalued
    Supports are new and the devs are still feeling out how to work them into the economy. You've seen them go from a 1/80 4*/LT value in vaults to 3/80 2* value, and riso reward in nodes increase from 3 to 10. That's going to continue to undergo adjustments because it's clearly still too slow to plan for levelling those you get. 

    3. Supports do not benefit from early adoption. 
    Unlike a character, if you don't have a support now, the instant you pull one it will be exactly as usable as if you got it last month (not very, but let's not split hairline distinctions in percentages...). 

    4. 250cp is worth one of these options:
    A. Two critical covers to champ one or two 4* characters, who will be essential in pve, and boosted every few weeks for both pve and pvp, and who will continue to grow in power and provide champion rewards over time. 

    B. 10 covers from Latest Legends, potentially 10.5 4*s including bonus heroes, potentially multiply 5*s, who are the end game and frequently essential in pve for better node and placement rewards for 6 weeks. 

    C. 12.5+ covers from Classic Legends, again potentially 4/5* covers blah blah blah.

    D. 1 set, unselectable 4* cover, a few Support tokens and a handful of dust- I mean riso. You know what you can get with those tokens? Proxima Midnight. Who at Rank 4 may give red ap to the supported villain character. 

    I would disagree with points 1 and 3.

    If your a high level pve competitor,  I.e. you play for T2 placements in scl9,  you can't afford to ignore supports.

    The margin of error is less than 5 min per sub. and even at level 40, the supports make a tangible difference in the hard and and essential nodes.


    If all of them were able to be equipped to anyone, and had similar abilities, sure.  But to counter your counter, several are only for certian groups. So spending cp go a chance that you get something that is useless to you because it wont help your pve experience.  Secondly, since speed is the factor, taking time to create a strength XX attack tile, and then the animation for it to go off every round, would go against you.  And several supports do this.  I agree with the good doctor here 
  • PhumadePhumade Posts: 1,955 Chairperson of the Boards
    Phumade said:
    \

    1. You don't need to have the new supports right now. 
    In fact, you don't need to have any supports at all. They're amusing to think about sure, having Lucky the pizza dog romping around Thor's feet or Wong faffing around in the background while Strange does his thing, and occasionally something useful happens. Little practical value, and they don't even offer entertainment in the form of bonus animations! 

    2. Supports are currently overvalued
    Supports are new and the devs are still feeling out how to work them into the economy. You've seen them go from a 1/80 4*/LT value in vaults to 3/80 2* value, and riso reward in nodes increase from 3 to 10. That's going to continue to undergo adjustments because it's clearly still too slow to plan for levelling those you get. 

    3. Supports do not benefit from early adoption. 
    Unlike a character, if you don't have a support now, the instant you pull one it will be exactly as usable as if you got it last month (not very, but let's not split hairline distinctions in percentages...). 

    4. 250cp is worth one of these options:
    A. Two critical covers to champ one or two 4* characters, who will be essential in pve, and boosted every few weeks for both pve and pvp, and who will continue to grow in power and provide champion rewards over time. 

    B. 10 covers from Latest Legends, potentially 10.5 4*s including bonus heroes, potentially multiply 5*s, who are the end game and frequently essential in pve for better node and placement rewards for 6 weeks. 

    C. 12.5+ covers from Classic Legends, again potentially 4/5* covers blah blah blah.

    D. 1 set, unselectable 4* cover, a few Support tokens and a handful of dust- I mean riso. You know what you can get with those tokens? Proxima Midnight. Who at Rank 4 may give red ap to the supported villain character. 

    I would disagree with points 1 and 3.

    If your a high level pve competitor,  I.e. you play for T2 placements in scl9,  you can't afford to ignore supports.

    The margin of error is less than 5 min per sub. and even at level 40, the supports make a tangible difference in the hard and and essential nodes.


    If all of them were able to be equipped to anyone, and had similar abilities, sure.  But to counter your counter, several are only for certian groups. So spending cp go a chance that you get something that is useless to you because it wont help your pve experience.  Secondly, since speed is the factor, taking time to create a strength XX attack tile, and then the animation for it to go off every round, would go against you.  And several supports do this.  I agree with the good doctor here 
    Do you have leaderboard results to back that up? As someone who does go after placements, I can assure you that the supports are shaving time off clears, and more significantly, extending my ability to run certain teams in the 5e node. Which ultimately is the node that decides placement. (I know this, because I log clear times, and Web wonder was just run on 4/22.) What ever seconds you lose waiting for the supports to proc is more than offset, by not wiping or losing a 1/2 thor in the 5e node, and I turned off animations many seasons ago. and unless your a 500 roster. the 515 5e node can easily wipe out 3x 480 5* champs. I repeat my statement. If your playing for T5 in scl 9, you can't afford not to use supports.
  • SpudgutterSpudgutter Posts: 732 Critical Contributor
    Phumade said:
    Phumade said:
    \

    1. You don't need to have the new supports right now. 
    In fact, you don't need to have any supports at all. They're amusing to think about sure, having Lucky the pizza dog romping around Thor's feet or Wong faffing around in the background while Strange does his thing, and occasionally something useful happens. Little practical value, and they don't even offer entertainment in the form of bonus animations! 

    2. Supports are currently overvalued
    Supports are new and the devs are still feeling out how to work them into the economy. You've seen them go from a 1/80 4*/LT value in vaults to 3/80 2* value, and riso reward in nodes increase from 3 to 10. That's going to continue to undergo adjustments because it's clearly still too slow to plan for levelling those you get. 

    3. Supports do not benefit from early adoption. 
    Unlike a character, if you don't have a support now, the instant you pull one it will be exactly as usable as if you got it last month (not very, but let's not split hairline distinctions in percentages...). 

    4. 250cp is worth one of these options:
    A. Two critical covers to champ one or two 4* characters, who will be essential in pve, and boosted every few weeks for both pve and pvp, and who will continue to grow in power and provide champion rewards over time. 

    B. 10 covers from Latest Legends, potentially 10.5 4*s including bonus heroes, potentially multiply 5*s, who are the end game and frequently essential in pve for better node and placement rewards for 6 weeks. 

    C. 12.5+ covers from Classic Legends, again potentially 4/5* covers blah blah blah.

    D. 1 set, unselectable 4* cover, a few Support tokens and a handful of dust- I mean riso. You know what you can get with those tokens? Proxima Midnight. Who at Rank 4 may give red ap to the supported villain character. 

    I would disagree with points 1 and 3.

    If your a high level pve competitor,  I.e. you play for T2 placements in scl9,  you can't afford to ignore supports.

    The margin of error is less than 5 min per sub. and even at level 40, the supports make a tangible difference in the hard and and essential nodes.


    If all of them were able to be equipped to anyone, and had similar abilities, sure.  But to counter your counter, several are only for certian groups. So spending cp go a chance that you get something that is useless to you because it wont help your pve experience.  Secondly, since speed is the factor, taking time to create a strength XX attack tile, and then the animation for it to go off every round, would go against you.  And several supports do this.  I agree with the good doctor here 
    Do you have leaderboard results to back that up? As someone who does go after placements, I can assure you that the supports are shaving time off clears, and more significantly, extending my ability to run certain teams in the 5e node. Which ultimately is the node that decides placement. (I know this, because I log clear times, and Web wonder was just run on 4/22.) What ever seconds you lose waiting for the supports to proc is more than offset, by not wiping or losing a 1/2 thor in the 5e node, and I turned off animations many seasons ago. and unless your a 500 roster. the 515 5e node can easily wipe out 3x 480 5* champs. I repeat my statement. If your playing for T5 in scl 9, you can't afford not to use supports.
    same anecdotal evidence as you.  just using basic math.  if x number of rounds normally take x amount of time, then with certain supports, x number of rounds will take x time+animation.  not sure how that equates to faster when some of those supports are only doing 22 damage, in a 5e node with enemies with health over 100k.  

    again, not arguing that some supports "may" help.  but i don't have a 5* above 456, and i rarely wipe on 5e nodes, and usually only when i don't have the 5e champed.  i don't think i have ever wiped on a 5e node with a champed 5*, if you are wiping with 3 of them at 480, obviously including the 5e, then both supports and i can't help you.  

    i'm just arguing that hanging your hat on the very few supports that may help, that are severely locked behind a paywall, RNG and only being able to attach to certain characters, is not really the best use of your 250cp.  just because you got lucky with your supports draw doesn't mean everyone else will.

    but if you want to splurge, go ahead, it's your game.
  • PhumadePhumade Posts: 1,955 Chairperson of the Boards
    same anecdotal evidence as you.  just using basic math.  if x number of rounds normally take x amount of time, then with certain supports, x number of rounds will take x time+animation.  not sure how that equates to faster when some of those supports are only doing 22 damage, in a 5e node with enemies with health over 100k.  

    again, not arguing that some supports "may" help.  but i don't have a 5* above 456, and i rarely wipe on 5e nodes, and usually only when i don't have the 5e champed.  i don't think i have ever wiped on a 5e node with a champed 5*, if you are wiping with 3 of them at 480, obviously including the 5e, then both supports and i can't help you.  

    i'm just arguing that hanging your hat on the very few supports that may help, that are severely locked behind a paywall, RNG and only being able to attach to certain characters, is not really the best use of your 250cp.  just because you got lucky with your supports draw doesn't mean everyone else will.

    but if you want to splurge, go ahead, it's your game
    Don't leverage the support for the direct damage number,   Leverage the support for tanking and color control and special tile control.

    I only run 8 chars in pve. in these general formats.
    464 OML/ 464DD for easy with 3* 266thanos for CD.  No supports here, because I can one shot the entire node.

    458 thor (level 50 sharon) / 310 America. (lvl 44 lucky dog)  Thor crit mult is bumped to 4.6 and america gets some healing and damage reduction.

    455 SL5 (lvl 16 element) / 367 grocket (lvl 24 milano)  Grocket syngery perk resolves for around 4k, and the element gun has 28% chance for +3 ap, and a double dip on grocket strikes.

    I'll pair any of those three teams with either 456 Dr. Strange (lvl 44 vibranium)  Vibranium boosts Strange's flame of faltine autofire, plus 3.55% damage reduction.  + 39 protect tile on any match4 or greater.

    plus I'll put the strongest remain support on the 5e and 4e nodes ahead of time.


    if your 3 x 455 team isn't losing to a 515 team,  then by all means share with us how you were beating a 515 royal family node, or a 515 rags/jugs/meh hulk node.  The lvl 515 5e nodes had no trouble wiping out my 3x 465 teams boosted with ap and damage perks.

    I'm doing this with with just 6 supports.  If I had rank 3 versions of the rest,  I'd build even better combinations taylored against goons or tile movers.  For example,  in rocket groot, I move kimoyo beads to my 458 hawkeye who was the buffed 5e.  The result of that was bonus 14% chance to get 5 blue ap from 1 blue match.

    In any case, I posted 82,398 in Meet rocket groot.  if your 450ish roster is posting a better score with no supports.  Please feel free to share your teams and builds.

    In any case.  If you look at my replies,  I said I disagree with points 1 and 3.  Didn't actually disagree with point 4 which was about the 250cp.
  • ZeroKarmaZeroKarma Posts: 513 Critical Contributor
    Phumade said:
    Phumade said:
    \

    1. You don't need to have the new supports right now. 
    In fact, you don't need to have any supports at all. They're amusing to think about sure, having Lucky the pizza dog romping around Thor's feet or Wong faffing around in the background while Strange does his thing, and occasionally something useful happens. Little practical value, and they don't even offer entertainment in the form of bonus animations! 

    2. Supports are currently overvalued
    Supports are new and the devs are still feeling out how to work them into the economy. You've seen them go from a 1/80 4*/LT value in vaults to 3/80 2* value, and riso reward in nodes increase from 3 to 10. That's going to continue to undergo adjustments because it's clearly still too slow to plan for levelling those you get. 

    3. Supports do not benefit from early adoption. 
    Unlike a character, if you don't have a support now, the instant you pull one it will be exactly as usable as if you got it last month (not very, but let's not split hairline distinctions in percentages...). 

    4. 250cp is worth one of these options:
    A. Two critical covers to champ one or two 4* characters, who will be essential in pve, and boosted every few weeks for both pve and pvp, and who will continue to grow in power and provide champion rewards over time. 

    B. 10 covers from Latest Legends, potentially 10.5 4*s including bonus heroes, potentially multiply 5*s, who are the end game and frequently essential in pve for better node and placement rewards for 6 weeks. 

    C. 12.5+ covers from Classic Legends, again potentially 4/5* covers blah blah blah.

    D. 1 set, unselectable 4* cover, a few Support tokens and a handful of dust- I mean riso. You know what you can get with those tokens? Proxima Midnight. Who at Rank 4 may give red ap to the supported villain character. 

    I would disagree with points 1 and 3.

    If your a high level pve competitor,  I.e. you play for T2 placements in scl9,  you can't afford to ignore supports.

    The margin of error is less than 5 min per sub. and even at level 40, the supports make a tangible difference in the hard and and essential nodes.


    If all of them were able to be equipped to anyone, and had similar abilities, sure.  But to counter your counter, several are only for certian groups. So spending cp go a chance that you get something that is useless to you because it wont help your pve experience.  Secondly, since speed is the factor, taking time to create a strength XX attack tile, and then the animation for it to go off every round, would go against you.  And several supports do this.  I agree with the good doctor here 
    Do you have leaderboard results to back that up? As someone who does go after placements, I can assure you that the supports are shaving time off clears, and more significantly, extending my ability to run certain teams in the 5e node. Which ultimately is the node that decides placement. (I know this, because I log clear times, and Web wonder was just run on 4/22.) What ever seconds you lose waiting for the supports to proc is more than offset, by not wiping or losing a 1/2 thor in the 5e node, and I turned off animations many seasons ago. and unless your a 500 roster. the 515 5e node can easily wipe out 3x 480 5* champs. I repeat my statement. If your playing for T5 in scl 9, you can't afford not to use supports.

    I can state that I pretty much ignore supports, they do add animation time (thus getting rid of Korg and burying him somewhere. Not sure who I attached him to), and that this has not resulted in any issues with regards to clear times or placement.

    I still T5 every event, unless I make a glaring error like with the duck this time, and am always in the running for T1. The largest factor in play currently is having an under-covered JJ and Cap until Okoye enters packs. 
  • SpudgutterSpudgutter Posts: 732 Critical Contributor
    Phumade said:
    same anecdotal evidence as you.  just using basic math.  if x number of rounds normally take x amount of time, then with certain supports, x number of rounds will take x time+animation.  not sure how that equates to faster when some of those supports are only doing 22 damage, in a 5e node with enemies with health over 100k.  

    again, not arguing that some supports "may" help.  but i don't have a 5* above 456, and i rarely wipe on 5e nodes, and usually only when i don't have the 5e champed.  i don't think i have ever wiped on a 5e node with a champed 5*, if you are wiping with 3 of them at 480, obviously including the 5e, then both supports and i can't help you.  

    i'm just arguing that hanging your hat on the very few supports that may help, that are severely locked behind a paywall, RNG and only being able to attach to certain characters, is not really the best use of your 250cp.  just because you got lucky with your supports draw doesn't mean everyone else will.

    but if you want to splurge, go ahead, it's your game
    Don't leverage the support for the direct damage number,   Leverage the support for tanking and color control and special tile control.

    I only run 8 chars in pve. in these general formats.
    464 OML/ 464DD for easy with 3* 266thanos for CD.  No supports here, because I can one shot the entire node.

    458 thor (level 50 sharon) / 310 America. (lvl 44 lucky dog)  Thor crit mult is bumped to 4.6 and america gets some healing and damage reduction.

    455 SL5 (lvl 16 element) / 367 grocket (lvl 24 milano)  Grocket syngery perk resolves for around 4k, and the element gun has 28% chance for +3 ap, and a double dip on grocket strikes.

    I'll pair any of those three teams with either 456 Dr. Strange (lvl 44 vibranium)  Vibranium boosts Strange's flame of faltine autofire, plus 3.55% damage reduction.  + 39 protect tile on any match4 or greater.

    plus I'll put the strongest remain support on the 5e and 4e nodes ahead of time.


    if your 3 x 455 team isn't losing to a 515 team,  then by all means share with us how you were beating a 515 royal family node, or a 515 rags/jugs/meh hulk node.  The lvl 515 5e nodes had no trouble wiping out my 3x 465 teams boosted with ap and damage perks.

    I'm doing this with with just 6 supports.  If I had rank 3 versions of the rest,  I'd build even better combinations taylored against goons or tile movers.  For example,  in rocket groot, I move kimoyo beads to my 458 hawkeye who was the buffed 5e.  The result of that was bonus 14% chance to get 5 blue ap from 1 blue match.

    In any case, I posted 82,398 in Meet rocket groot.  if your 450ish roster is posting a better score with no supports.  Please feel free to share your teams and builds.

    In any case.  If you look at my replies,  I said I disagree with points 1 and 3.  Didn't actually disagree with point 4 which was about the 250cp.
    Lets look back at 1 and 3 then.

    1. You don't need to have the new supports right now

    You are doing well with supports.  (Because you were lucky enough to pull ones that help you).  Ignoring your obvious confirmation bias, are you doing better?  If you were placing well before supports, and placing roughly the same now, then no, you dont "need" them right now.  Can they help, sure.  *IF* you pull the right ones.  But you sure dont need them.

    3. Supports do not benefit from early adoption.

    This basically ties into number one.  Having supports now probably arent having a significant impact on many, due to the pay wall and rng.  It almost makes sense to hoard them, to see if better supports come out that arent tied to specific groups or characters.  The double edged sword being that you may get duplicates or ones that dont help, and we go back to square one.

    Look, im not saying supports are terrible.  Im just saying they arent great, overpriced, too hard to get, and probably a couple of years late.  I had no problems with vaulting, and can understand trying to fix pvp with wins based.  So i can understand them trying something new.  I just dont see them as great, and i dont think i am alone here
  • SpudgutterSpudgutter Posts: 732 Critical Contributor
    Phumade said:

    if your 3 x 455 team isn't losing to a 515 team,  then by all means share with us how you were beating a 515 royal family node, or a 515 rags/jugs/meh hulk node.  The lvl 515 5e nodes had no trouble wiping out my 3x 465 teams boosted with ap and damage perks.

    I use JJ and HalfThor.  I sometimes use Gambit if i need to overwrite tiles, but i rarely use him since i got JJ.  I also dont use boosts or damage perks.  If i have the 5* champed, i use Halfthor and America.  I aim for top 50 at a leisurely pace, and often get top 20.  

    Is it the quickest?  Not sure.  But it gets the job done most days, with the fewest headaches.
  • DormammuDormammu Posts: 3,531 Chairperson of the Boards

    1. You don't need to have the new supports right now

    You are doing well with supports.  (Because you were lucky enough to pull ones that help you).  Ignoring your obvious confirmation bias, are you doing better?  If you were placing well before supports, and placing roughly the same now, then no, you dont "need" them right now.  Can they help, sure.  *IF* you pull the right ones.  But you sure dont need them.

    I sure haven't seen my PvE placements go down since the release of supports. In fact, they've gone up. Not because I'm using supports (haven't gotten around to bothering yet). It's more likely competitive players have been leaving this game in their rear-view mirror.
  • DyingLegendDyingLegend Posts: 926 Critical Contributor
    Dormammu said:

    1. You don't need to have the new supports right now

    You are doing well with supports.  (Because you were lucky enough to pull ones that help you).  Ignoring your obvious confirmation bias, are you doing better?  If you were placing well before supports, and placing roughly the same now, then no, you dont "need" them right now.  Can they help, sure.  *IF* you pull the right ones.  But you sure dont need them.

    I sure haven't seen my PvE placements go down since the release of supports. In fact, they've gone up. Not because I'm using supports (haven't gotten around to bothering yet). It's more likely competitive players have been leaving this game in their rear-view mirror.

    I agree with this statement.
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