After cycling

ArielSira

In PVE for the bigger guys (250+ life) I usually just use cycling. It's not worth the time in my opinion to go at them the regular way, especially when they use plenty of removal.

After cycling moves out of Standard, how will we do against the big bosses? There is no fun at all in struggling for 45 minutes and then still have a high chance of losing. The proper balance in my eyes would be a strong boss with a strong deck/abilities but with normal life, around 120, maybe 150 max.

Tilwin90

Already posted something in suggestions regarding absurd PVE hp... I totally see this as a problem not only with cycling disappearing but also approach of the second sun. 

Bil

  The starfield + thopter network locks will still remain very efficient and represent a good alternative without searching too far in deckbuilding. Origins is generally the set to craft in priority for remaining standard so both cards are reachable.
  However, its true that a 500 hp oponent costs generally a lot of time to deal with ...

TomB

I'm hoping it's not going to require a Nyx lock deck to progress, moving forward...

Laeuftbeidir

This is the point when creativity becomes important again.

As I stated last year, lots of players that shouldn't have been able to win everything (particulary not endgame content in bronze) were enabled to do so by using cycling, completely ignoring any learning curve (not their fault, if course). Cycling leaves, so you'll either have to adapt or get used to losing.. What wouldn't be a problem if cycling never existed in first place.

Apart from that I kind of agree, 500hp..300hp.. Make kind of no difference,it just takes a bit longer (the additional 200hp are normally a matter of two or three minutes for me, since it doesn't take a lot of time to deal that much dmg after the board is build up). If I can deal 300 damage I also could deal 3k damage. If the board isn't stable for me, I won't reach 300 at all.. That's kind of my sweet spot.

Froggy

I have my Elspeth and AbJani decks that will hold up for the big bosses. Not to mention Bolas ID/Immortal Sun.

But they are all creatureless and not the easiest to compile. Elsie will get a full redesign as I use two AKH masterpieces in her deck (Vindicate and Wrath of God - so that sucks). Bolas is simple. AbJani deck is this:

SPELLS:
HUF
Inforeno Jet
Exquisite Firecraft
Hour of Devastation
Oketra’s Last Merci (this will be my sub for AoSS)

SUPPORTS:
Nyx
Goggles
Sphinx’s Decree
Gideon’s Defeat 
Gilded Lotus (if nerfed, will use ID)


Highly effective deck. I hope it of help.

Sirchombli

I remember when I was new and thought they were joking the first time I saw Avacyn's hp in AM . I thought it would be completely impossible. I had just bumped up to silver and had like 3 mythics and a dozen or so rares. It was impossible for me at the time .Eventually I got there. I feel like cycling was terrible for this game .

If cycling existed in the beginning ,I would have become super reliant upon it. I just used the most powerful thing available to me and spammed it. At the time it was tyrant of valakut , Abbott and rambler . Wasn't fool proof, but I'm glad because it taught me a lot of important things about the game . I got better ,but losing was always a distinct possibility .

Then AKH hit. I was straddling the line between gold and platinum .I was a solid player, but I still had a mediocre collection and some bad habits . I got my hands on cast out ,Drake haven and new perspectives. Suddenly I was invincible .Pve bosses that made me want to cry couldn't even touch me. So I cycled . A lot. Problem was, I was winning ,but I was really starting to hate playing . So I stopped. It sometimes takes a little longer than cycling, but I have absolutely no problem with pve bosses now . The hp on them is comically high ,but they all have some exploitable flaw . Ever notice how often azor kills his own creatures. Just takes a little trial and error . I've helped a lot of players beat big dum bosses for the first time. 

That said , why are silver and bronze players faced with the same 500 hp boss as platinum players ? Seems cruel . I remember playing bolas in rotgp with my bronze alt. I don't have any of the cards that make that fight practical , so I struggled. A couple times I'd die like 45 minutes in . That made me eventually nope out of the event . I think that adjusting things like that would help make the prospect of a world without cycling less bleak for those that rely on it . It's like taking away a sledge hammer and replacing it with a crab mallet .

Theros

Bosses that require fewer turn objectives will be almost impossible to complete. 

ArielSira said:

After cycling moves out of Standard, how will we do against the big bosses?

The same way non-cyclers beat big bosses. Actually non-cycling decks are faster at killing pve bosses.
Karn is very efficient against big pve bosses since there is no color restriction.

I think battle of the four tribes is doable without having powerful cards and  cycling. For all other events, many will have hard time to compete when cycling is gone.
In fact even vets will have hard time to compete whenever HOD rotates out. Rix and ixalan rates were so low many (including myself) did not have good momentum in collecting useful cards from rix/ixalan before Dominara next week. If dominara rates were to be low and the pattern continues, in the long run, many more vets will not be competitive. F2P at least wont be that viable.
I'm expecting many to be busy catching up with rix and ixalan when dominara is live. Some wont have enough orbs to craft that many mythics from rix/ixalan and would craft rares instead.
Cycling was a solid avenue to be competitive at lower rarity.

Quantius

I try to avoid cycling, but I'm still using it on Azor's Gateway. People can tell me all about how they just added some support removal and won, I don't believe it. Nothing I have done except cycling has been able to beat it. The closest I got was with a Tezz 1 running Immortal Sun as the only support and in one of the turns the AI cascaded it to death, got extra swap and killed me.

However, I can't wait for cycling to leave. I also want to see HUF and ID go away. As much fun as HUF is, I want those both gone.

DumasAG

I'm struggling to understand the problem, because I don't use cycling as I dislike boring strategies. Additionally, I prefer long and interactive battles, as that way I feel specifically like I'm NOT wasting my time. I can't imagine a bigger waste than to grind out games and hate what I'm doing just so that I can get rewards to keep grinding...

Constructively, I can tell you that I've been beating the top end dudes of this event with Dovin Starfield, Vraska stuff, Tezz2 Storm the Vault Embalm, Nicol Bolas pirates, Huatli2 Dinosaurs, and Kiora big mana

ArielSira

Just wanted to clarify I am strictly talking about PVE big hp bosses in Standard, not Legacy and certainly not PVP. I'll be glad to see cycling gone in Standard PVP.

When Greg got smart I saw a lot less perfect scores and I liked that, so now I expect a similar result. It seems like the aim is "not to lose" instead of "trying to win" and it feels bad when you lost knowing you'd have an easy boring win through cycling.

But as said above by others Azors Gateway, winning in x rounds or less or going against a Boss deck with tons of removal (including 'first creature' so hexproof is useless), will be like playing AM in my early days; undoable and not worth attempting to waste 45 minutes *just* because the AI has the 400 life buffer to build up its deck and can kill me 4 times faster. No fun in that.

Gilesclone

What I find offensive to beginners isn’t that they have to beat the same bosses with worse cards so much as that they get worse rewards for doing it.

Thuran

Imminent doom is still here, and still extremely powerful, skill just use that instead

FindingHeart8

Gilesclone said:

What I find offensive to beginners isn’t that they have to beat the same bosses with worse cards so much as that they get worse rewards for doing it.

FindingHeart8

There needs needs needs to be more legacy events, and more opportunities for players to get and play cards that aren't just in standard.  There's no point in offering nonstandard packs in the vault if you can't ever use them.  Newer players (and rejoining players) are so far in the dust there's no way to really be competitive.


It doesn't even need to be all-inclusive legacy, you could have legacy events with the restrictions of the sets at the time (ex: Zenidkar to Kaladesh, Kaladesh to HoU, etcetc).  Maybe a 30 crystal buy-in that gets you an immediate free pack for each event block just for joining so players who don't have the cards get a sample they can use (almost like mtgpq's version of a draft).

FindingHeart8

I can only imagine that amount of PTSD cycling has caused

Gunmix25

FindingHeart8 said:

I can only imagine that amount of PTSD cycling has caused

CYcle… *eye twitch* … C-c-c-CYCLE! *facial tic* must cycle! I-I-I cycles, yeeeeess …. *licks blood streak off screen from repetitive swiping* MMMMMMMMMMMMmmmmmmmmmmm  *smacks lips*…. yum yum yummyyummyyummy.. *and resumes cycling*  Cyckecyclecyclecycle *Eye twitch and facial tics and casts New perspectives*

*high pitch squeal* PRECIOUSSSSSSSSSSSS!!!!! 

*dances maniacally in joy*

WE BEATS YOU! YES!!! *pats the ground* WE BEATS YOU WITH PRECIOUSSS! HAHAHHA--*chokes* Gollum! Gollum!

*ahem* Dunno what you're talking about @Findingheart8

FindingHeart8

Gunmix25 said:

FindingHeart8 said:

I can only imagine that amount of PTSD cycling has caused

CYcle… *eye twitch* … C-c-c-CYCLE! *facial tic* must cycle! I-I-I cycles, yeeeeess …. *licks blood streak off screen from repetitive swiping* MMMMMMMMMMMMmmmmmmmmmmm  *smacks lips*…. yum yum yummyyummyyummy.. *and resumes cycling*  Cyckecyclecyclecycle *Eye twitch and facial tics and casts New perspectives*

*high pitch squeal* PRECIOUSSSSSSSSSSSS!!!!! 

*dances maniacally in joy*

WE BEATS YOU! YES!!! *pats the ground* WE BEATS YOU WITH PRECIOUSSS! HAHAHHA--*chokes* Gollum! Gollum!

*ahem* Dunno what you're talking about @Findingheart8

well...that escalated quickly

"Hi...my name is Gunmix25 and I'm a cycling addict."

"Hiiiii, Gunmix25."
"Welcome to Cycling anonymous, Gunmix25."
"Woah dude, is that your real name?"

Thuran

Lets be positive guys; we have become world class experts at dragging things to the right!

Next stop, tinder!

Gunmix25

 Thuran said:

Lets be positive guys; we have become world class experts at dragging things to the right!

Next stop, tinder!

HAHAHA

wickedwitch74

Yes, it will take some adjustment to move on beyond cycling. 

We still haven't seen the Dominaria cards in action, so it's not just subtraction. There will be entirely new strategies in the coming weeks.

Just a few ideas with what we still have:

Sorin: Pony/Lifegain
Samut: Ghalta/Afflict
Huatli2: Vamps/Exploration
Bolas: Doom/Immortal Sun Loop
Tezz2: Blightcaster/Storm the Vault/Treasures 
Dovin: Starfield/Wreckage
Lili3: Hangarback/Tetzimoc
Nahiri: Double-Strikers/Removal
Vraska: Big Dinos/Recursion

Some of these big bosses will still be a challenge, but Samut with a double-afflicted 84/84 Ghalta can be pretty devastating. Obviously, it will come down to the cards you have, but there are some very good (non-cycling) strategies floating around out there.