Leader?

Gunmix25

Stormcrow said:

Gunmix25 said:

Look at it this way. What lightning Runner was to energize mechanics in KLD/AER, Squee is for the reinforcement cost mechanic in Dominaria. And Squee is a pain to get rid of unless you've got something to exile him with, else he just comes back every turn after you kill him.

That you could even make this comparison ludicrously overvalues Squee.

First of all: Lightning Runner costs 6. 6 Mana for a 2/2 haste/double strike creature would be a very efficiently costed creature even if it had no other abilities. If he cost 20, nobody would use him as an Energize Engine, because it would take too long to get your engine started and your opponent would just kill you by the time you got going. This is why people without Runner don't use Aethersquall Ancient as their Energize source...even Empyreal Voyager is pretty iffy. (The only deck I ever made Voyager really work in had Sword of Body and Mind...he's an efficient energizer if he gets +8/+8!)

Second: Lightning Runner has an immediate and lasting impact on the board state. He starts energizing immediately, and as I said, he's an offensive threat in his own right. Squee is a 3/2 that does nothing by himself. Unlike Lightning Runner, he has no mechanic that makes use of his ability to work as an engine. That means his ability to function as an engine requires you to play other cards to get it going *and* play other cards to make use of it, whereas Lightning Runner is entirely self-contained - makes energy, uses energy, no other cards required. Squee's unkillability is pretty irrelevant, too. On manual, playing against Squee, it'll be very easy to just ignore him. And the AI, playing against Squee - well, even Greg is usually smart enough to use kill spells on your biggest threats, and if you don't have anything bigger in play than Squee, you're probably in trouble. In a game where we are limited to 3 creature slots on the board, the fact that you're permanently committing one of your 3 creature slots to a 3/2 with no abilities is a serious drawback.

But the biggest issue isn't even creature slots on the board (I suppose you can always give Squee reach/vigilance/defender) but the card slots in your deck. Reinforcing Lightning Runner from your hand is not terrible (because it's cheap to cast, and +2/+2 to your double-striker is not bad for 6 mana), but reinforcing Squee from your hand? 20 mana to get 1 additional use out of a reinforcement-eating effect is absolutely unplayable, which means every time you draw a Squee when you've already got a Squee on the board is basically self-inflicted card disadvantage.

To fix Squee he needs some combination of the following:
1.) a drastic cost reduction
2.) an impact on the board state when he enters play (gain mana, convert gems, ping a creature....something)
3.) an impact on your hand when he enters play (make him a cantrip)
4.) stacking power/toughness when reinforced

All 4 of those things would be too much....but he needs at least 2 of them. Right now he's such hot garbage that he's gonna drag down the entire mechanic that he's supposed to work with.

Wow, you read into my post waaaaay too much. Lol. But I appreciate the response.  

I simply was pointing out that squee is the engine for the reinforcement mechanic like Lightning runner is for energize. Nothing more or less. I wasn't comparing costs, effectiveness, or the reality of Squee even being fielded. Just sayin'

Kinesia

There are _always_ engines based on killing things in Magic. Black often loves Sacrifice. Squee will be Angrath's deckhand.

But also, looking backwards, Sarkhan will feed him to dragons forever. And, sure, it might not be the most powerful thing by itself, but it _will_ be one of the most fun.

If you let Squee get bigger then the drive is to get him the biggest and that is actually dull and boring, making him into an engine part that dies over and over is far more interesting and fun.

He's a Johnny card, not the Timmy one he'd be if got bigger.

Enygma6

Use another gimmick card like Some Disassembly Required with him.  Or as fodder to keep Cruel Reality busy.

Enygma6

Found another Leader: the Josu’s Zombie tokens created by Josu Vess will assimilate the old school 2/2 black zombie tokens.  Have not tested with other zombie tokens such as those from the Hour cards, nor have I tried out the various knight tokens yet.  Could get interesting.

Kinesia

Now we've seen Leader  in play.. Huatli's dino token _needs_ Leader : Dinosaur. Now the tech exists it should be a very quick and easy and satisfying fix.

This is _exactly_ how some of us suggested her token should work when it was released.

Unknown

This content has been removed.

Mburn7

chuckles said:

good to know that ETB effects are not triggered by tokens if a leader card is present, but WHY????  a deck built around a leader card is often being built around the effects of the tokens entering the battlefield.  to squash those effects once the leader card is present seems wrong.  a leader card should be adding more to the effects of a deck, not detracting.  e.g. verdant force no longer receiving +1/+1 from saprolings once slimefoot shows up.  same scene with sram, senior edificer and the thopters and marwyn, the nurturer and her elves.  i worked so hard to get these leader cards, and was so seriously bummed when i discovered the decks i had built around them while i was waiting were actually worse off once i put them in.  having prized amalgam no longer reappear from the graveyard once graveyard marshal is on the field was the hardest pill to swallow, though.  we shouldn't have to choose between a leader card and the token effects.  the leader should be a boon that synergizes the deck further rather than taking away from it.  just sayin'.

The issue seems to be how the Leader ability is defined.  

Since the tokens are exiled when they are created the never enter the battlefield, hence the no ETB triggers.

The alternative would be for it to work the way Divine Intervention did where they briefly go on the battlefield and then get exiled, but that would probably cause a whole host of issues (see:  original Divine Intervention).
I think its fine as is, since they still trigger "Create X or more token" objectives.

Matthew

Brace yourself, this is about to get closed for being too old and thus irrelevant.

Kinesia

Matthew said:

Brace yourself, this is about to get closed for being too old and thus irrelevant.

Ageism!