Leader?

Mburn7
Mburn7 Posts: 3,427 Chairperson of the Boards
edited May 2018 in MtGPQ General Discussion
(From the 2.7 release notes)

Leader

When a creature with Leader enters the battlefield, it exiles all tokens you control with any of the given subtypes, and it’s reinforced for each token and token reinforcement it exiled.


Anyone have any idea what this will equate to in paper?  It seems to be separate from Legendary, and I can't think of any ability or mechanic that its similar to.

@Brigby any insight?

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Comments

  • Thuran
    Thuran Posts: 456 Mover and Shaker
    Its similar to Shanna's ability, where her p/t is equal to number of creatures you control, but that is about it.

    While we are on the questions; what happens if you have a full board, and cast a creature with leader? 

    Seems like it will be a horrible mechanic if you are forced to keep a slot open to use it...especially since it kills the other creature upon entry...
  • wereotter
    wereotter Posts: 2,070 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited May 2018
    Notice that it just says tokens, not token creatures. So theoretically if a creature like this existed:


    It could just eat up all your treasures, servos, and clues, but leave your creatures.
  • Mburn7
    Mburn7 Posts: 3,427 Chairperson of the Boards
    Good point @wereotter, there are a few cards with */* that this could theoretically be used for.
    It would still be pretty narrow for a keyword, though
  • DragonSorcerer
    DragonSorcerer Posts: 182 Tile Toppler
    Sounds a bit like Devour or Exploit to me
  • ZW2007-
    ZW2007- Posts: 812 Critical Contributor
    Leader

    When a creature with Leader enters the battlefield, it exiles all tokens you control with any of the given subtypes...

    It wouldn't eat servos etc. unless the card had Leader: Servo since it only exiles things with that subtype.


  • wereotter
    wereotter Posts: 2,070 Chairperson of the Boards
    Right, we didn't know exactly what we were going to see.

    However if in the future they added a card with Leader: Artifact then it *should* eat servos as those technically are artifacts. Just depends on if they actually retro the cards to match the new types.
  • Enygma6
    Enygma6 Posts: 266 Mover and Shaker
    How many Leaders are there in the set?  From my quick read-through of the listing yesterday I only recall seeing two: Squee and Slimefoot.
  • Mburn7
    Mburn7 Posts: 3,427 Chairperson of the Boards
    Enygma6 said:
    How many Leaders are there in the set?  From my quick read-through of the listing yesterday I only recall seeing two: Squee and Slimefoot.
    Those are the only 2, it seems.  And since Squee doesn't get stronger with reinforcements (for some reason), its really just there for Slimefoot the All-Mighty
  • Enygma6
    Enygma6 Posts: 266 Mover and Shaker
    Rather small implementation for such a hyped feature.
  • Mburn7
    Mburn7 Posts: 3,427 Chairperson of the Boards
    Enygma6 said:
    Rather small implementation for such a hyped feature.
    Hopefully its just a way of getting the mechanic in for future use.  They did say they'd be balancing legacy cards eventually, this could find its way onto more cards eventually
  • Enygma6
    Enygma6 Posts: 266 Mover and Shaker
    Things could go nuts if they make a Vampire or Zombie leader, not too difficult to make giant stacks of those already.  
    I’m already thinking of ways to abuse Saprolings.
  • ZW2007-
    ZW2007- Posts: 812 Critical Contributor
    wereotter said:
    Right, we didn't know exactly what we were going to see.

    However if in the future they added a card with Leader: Artifact then it *should* eat servos as those technically are artifacts. Just depends on if they actually retro the cards to match the new types.
    I debated commenting about posting from the future lol but that is a good point that they could just add artifact to servos and clues and do it that way. Ironically enough, with the changes they made with reinforcements counting and whatnot, servos could become the 1/1 token creatures they were always meant to be.

    If they go back and make some older cards leaders, fear the zombie leader.
  • ZW2007-
    ZW2007- Posts: 812 Critical Contributor
    Enygma6 said:
    Things could go nuts if they make a Vampire or Zombie leader, not too difficult to make giant stacks of those already.  
    I’m already thinking of ways to abuse Saprolings.
    Tendershoot Dryad will be amazing to pair with Slimefoot. Honestly it would have been cool if Josu had leader, you could cast him, make his zombies, then next time you cast him he eats those and gets massive. Granted his P/T would have to have been adjusted way down then.
  • Gunmix25
    Gunmix25 Posts: 1,442 Chairperson of the Boards
    Mburn7 said:
    …... And since Squee doesn't get stronger with reinforcements (for some reason) …..

    Because maybe he is … immortal? lol

    He is basically a respawning unit that provides the fuel for the following cards:

    Fungal Plots: (G) support … UC

    Goblin Barrage: ( R ) Spell … UC

    Goblin Warchief: ( R ) Creature … UC

    Mox Amber: (colorless) Support … M

    Siege-Gang Commander: ( R ) Creature … R

    Skirk Prospector: ( R ) Creature … C

    Torgaar, Famine Incarnate: ( B ) Creature … R

    Vicious Offering: ( B ) Spell … C

    Zahid, Djinn of the Lamp: ( U ) Creature … R


    He easily provides the necessary requirements to cast these cards and the developers cleverly found a way to make sure we would use him by making sure he comes back with all his reinforcements. In short, exile is his achilles heel.

  • khurram
    khurram Posts: 1,090 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited May 2018
    Maybe i'm missing something. If Squee doesn't get stronger with reinforcements then what does he do exactly?
  • Mburn7
    Mburn7 Posts: 3,427 Chairperson of the Boards
    Gunmix25 said:
    Mburn7 said:
    …... And since Squee doesn't get stronger with reinforcements (for some reason) …..

    Because maybe he is … immortal? lol


    He easily provides the necessary requirements to cast these cards and the developers cleverly found a way to make sure we would use him by making sure he comes back with all his reinforcements. In short, exile is his achilles heel.

    Fair enough lol.

    And my issue with that theory is the cost.  20 mana for a 3/2, even if he can't be easily removed, is pretty steep.
    Also, his ability should work from exile.  It does in paper.  And it would make him actually useful even at a 20 cost (since once you play him he's there to stay)
  • Gunmix25
    Gunmix25 Posts: 1,442 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited May 2018
    khurram said:
    Maybe i'm missing something. If Squee doesn't get stronger with reinforcements then what does he do exactly?
    Might wanna re-read my post above yours. His ability to stack reinforcements and have them come back with him if and when he is killed off by removal or an attack is very useful. His reinforcements can pay the reinforcement costs of the cards listed. 

    Look at it this way. What lightning Runner was to energize mechanics in KLD/AER, Squee is for the reinforcement cost mechanic in Dominaria. And Squee is a pain to get rid of unless you've got something to exile him with, else he just comes back every turn after you kill him.
  • Gunmix25
    Gunmix25 Posts: 1,442 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited May 2018
    Mburn7 said:
    Gunmix25 said:
    Mburn7 said:
    …... And since Squee doesn't get stronger with reinforcements (for some reason) …..

    Because maybe he is … immortal? lol


    He easily provides the necessary requirements to cast these cards and the developers cleverly found a way to make sure we would use him by making sure he comes back with all his reinforcements. In short, exile is his achilles heel.

    Fair enough lol.

    And my issue with that theory is the cost.  20 mana for a 3/2, even if he can't be easily removed, is pretty steep.
    Also, his ability should work from exile.  It does in paper.  And it would make him actually useful even at a 20 cost (since once you play him he's there to stay)
    But the problem with Squee in paper is that he does not have the reinforcement ability. I believe that the developer decided to allow him to be exiled as a way to balance his new ability in PQ

    It is a steep price to cast him, but he is more likely to be destroyed than exiled thus getting you cost back. I suspect that he will be more understood by playing with him rather than debate. Even I am not 100% sure he is a bowl of awesomesauce. Lol i want to see how he assists those cards
  • khurram
    khurram Posts: 1,090 Chairperson of the Boards
    Gunmix25 said:
    khurram said:
    Maybe i'm missing something. If Squee doesn't get stronger with reinforcements then what does he do exactly?
    Might wanna re-read my post above yours. His ability to stack reinforcements and have them come back with him if and when he is killed off by removal or an attack is very useful. His reinforcements can pay the reinforcement costs of the cards listed. 

    Look at it this way. What lightning Runner was to energize mechanics in KLD/AER, Squee is for the reinforcement cost mechanic in Dominaria. And Squee is a pain to get rid of unless you've got something to exile him with, else he just comes back every turn after you kill him.
    I don't see how being able to increase his power and toughness with reinforcements would have taken anything away from his usefulness with those cards you mentioned in your post.

    His cost should be cut down in half as he is now.
    Oh well, maybe the card will feel different when I actually get it and try it out.
  • Stormcrow
    Stormcrow Posts: 462 Mover and Shaker
    Gunmix25 said:

    Look at it this way. What lightning Runner was to energize mechanics in KLD/AER, Squee is for the reinforcement cost mechanic in Dominaria. And Squee is a pain to get rid of unless you've got something to exile him with, else he just comes back every turn after you kill him.
    That you could even make this comparison ludicrously overvalues Squee.

    First of all: Lightning Runner costs 6. 6 Mana for a 2/2 haste/double strike creature would be a very efficiently costed creature even if it had no other abilities. If he cost 20, nobody would use him as an Energize Engine, because it would take too long to get your engine started and your opponent would just kill you by the time you got going. This is why people without Runner don't use Aethersquall Ancient as their Energize source...even Empyreal Voyager is pretty iffy. (The only deck I ever made Voyager really work in had Sword of Body and Mind...he's an efficient energizer if he gets +8/+8!)

    Second: Lightning Runner has an immediate and lasting impact on the board state. He starts energizing immediately, and as I said, he's an offensive threat in his own right. Squee is a 3/2 that does nothing by himself. Unlike Lightning Runner, he has no mechanic that makes use of his ability to work as an engine. That means his ability to function as an engine requires you to play other cards to get it going *and* play other cards to make use of it, whereas Lightning Runner is entirely self-contained - makes energy, uses energy, no other cards required. Squee's unkillability is pretty irrelevant, too. On manual, playing against Squee, it'll be very easy to just ignore him. And the AI, playing against Squee - well, even Greg is usually smart enough to use kill spells on your biggest threats, and if you don't have anything bigger in play than Squee, you're probably in trouble. In a game where we are limited to 3 creature slots on the board, the fact that you're permanently committing one of your 3 creature slots to a 3/2 with no abilities is a serious drawback.

    But the biggest issue isn't even creature slots on the board (I suppose you can always give Squee reach/vigilance/defender) but the card slots in your deck. Reinforcing Lightning Runner from your hand is not terrible (because it's cheap to cast, and +2/+2 to your double-striker is not bad for 6 mana), but reinforcing Squee from your hand? 20 mana to get 1 additional use out of a reinforcement-eating effect is absolutely unplayable, which means every time you draw a Squee when you've already got a Squee on the board is basically self-inflicted card disadvantage.

    To fix Squee he needs some combination of the following:
    1.) a drastic cost reduction
    2.) an impact on the board state when he enters play (gain mana, convert gems, ping a creature....something)
    3.) an impact on your hand when he enters play (make him a cantrip)
    4.) stacking power/toughness when reinforced

    All 4 of those things would be too much....but he needs at least 2 of them. Right now he's such hot garbage that he's gonna drag down the entire mechanic that he's supposed to work with.