Goodbye Loot Box. Hello Heroes for Hire?

NeonBlue

aesthetocyst said:

@babinro .... for clarification, for those that don't follow (or even much care.....) about such terms and definitions, what in MPQ is considered a 'loot box'?

Are you considering all token types, and multi-token packs of tokens, 'loot boxes'? And would potential regulations see them the same way?

What if tokens were only earnable, not purchasable? That is, the token stores remained, but no longer had HP prices on them? To me, tha tis still gambling with time spent, rather than outside cash, but how do governing bodies see it?

And the vaults ... what if the only option that had a HP price on it was a 'BUY ALL' button? You would still earn earn single pulls through gameplay, but couldn't buy them with cash. You could only buy the entire vault with cash, and would know exactly what you're paying for.

And would making HP only purchasable, no longer earnable/winnable help? If so, there'd have to be a rethink regarding roster slots....those would have to become winnable, or new and casual players would be screwed.

(Can you tell I have not followed this issue at all )

TL;DR - are we talking only about cash transactions here, or also talking about currency that's only earned through gameplay?

Under the generic notion of "loot box," it applies to any system in which a player purchases a randomized item(s) from a pool of possible items. These possible pools may be as small as two, or as big as 2 billion. In this case, loot boxes that are being regulated are also given the condition that there is a way to transform real-world currency into a loot box pull (either through direct purchasing of the lootbox, or through intermediaries such as a secondary currency). 

By its very foundation, a token is a "loot box" in its purest form. If D3 made tokens only available as rewards, they would still be a loot box, but not fall under the regulations set forth by these legal entities, since there would be no direct or indirect way to transform real-world money into a lootbox (since you have to play for them). It would be the only way to circumvent these regulations, because tokens couldn't be sold for HP, CP, or ISO, since there are ways in the store to directly transform real money into any one of these currencies.   

Stax the Foyer

As soon as you admit that in-game items have value, there are all sorts of different cans of worms that get opened.  The tax issues alone could be a nightmare.

NeonBlue

randomhero1090 said:

NeonBlue said:

randomhero1090 said:

MPQ does have stated odds.  You can also earn points to open said "boxes."  There is absolutely no force to pay.  You can earn literally everything in the game for free.  It appears that a matchmaking approach has been taken to cater to all sorts of players.  Not saying it's perfect, but it at least looks that way.

The two conditions to loot boxes that everyone brings up in loot box discussions are (1) Do loot boxes affect gameplay, and (2) how frequently can you acquire loot boxes as a non-paying player?

However, it seems like this entity is not interested in the nuances of loot box implementation. They want to get rid of all loot boxes that can be bought with real-world currency, no matter how insidious or benign, because they want to attack that connection between participating in a chance-based system and real money as a participation fee. By attacking all purchasable loot boxes, it forego's the grey area of "oh, but these loot boxes are just cosmetic and doesn't give me a competitive advantage" or "they are super generous with how many loot boxes they give you just by playing."

Drawing the line anywhere in the middle opens up the discussion to significant criticism. So, their solution is to attack the whole system and let the gaming industry sort it out. It's a much more convincing sell and headline to be able to go on the news and tell parents "we're ending gambling in your children's games" than to say "we're ending gambling in your children's games if they affect in-game mechanics and the rate at which you can earn them is less than one lootbox per four hours of gameplay."

It's standard gov't regulation.  Broad, high-level, sound-bite type implementation.  It's another standard case of "since people can't control themselves, we will regulate."

But, you get kids involved...  then I get it.  I do.  My son plays Fortnite like crazy, and those v-bucks are way too easy to buy.  So I gotta be all over it.

It's funny you say that, because I think that these regulations are only gaining traction because of the potential involvement of kids

1. Regulated Gambling: Most countries have this. Gambling is okay as long as it follows strict guidelines to avoid foul play, and only allows people to participate if they are above a certain age.

2. Unregulated Gambling: This becomes a legal/gov't issue. This is inherently a crime since it operates outside the purview of a governing body, and has the potential for corruption and other nefarious activities. However, as far as the public is concern, unregulated gambling is not a cause for public outcry except among the staunchest of individuals. Unregulated gambling is typically viewed as an activity exclusively among consenting adults, and because of that, it is frequently considered a victimless crime (sans the addict who gambles their life savings away). No one's going to be publishing a hard-hitting piece of journalism every time I place a call to my bookie.

3. Unregulated Gambling with Kids: This is where you transform a legal issue into a moral one. Unlike above, this crime has a victim: kids. Children (by law and by public opinion) are considered too young and immature to be able to make effective informed decisions. They are thus considered a "vulnerable population" or a population that is more susceptible to exploitation. Any shady activity directed towards a vulnerable population can possibly draw the ire of the public, since it is foregoing any sense of moral responsibility. Transforming lootboxes into a moral issue is a surefire way to mobilizes the public and put additional pressure on the gaming industry. If I turn on the nightly news and see a story about the police ending an illegal gambling ring, I may be interested, but I have no stake in it, so I'll drop it as soon as the story's over. However, if the story is about a gambling ring targeting kids, then my parental nature would take over, since there will always be the possibility that my kid could be involved, and that's dangerous. 

Hadronic

Goodbye loot boxes? More like Goodbye Belgian players.

Too small a market to worry about. Get the rest of Europe or the US to follow and then we will talk.

PenniesForEveryone

aesthetocyst said:

Stax the Foyer said:

As soon as you admit that in-game items have value, there are all sorts of different cans of worms that get opened.  The tax issues alone could be a nightmare.

Admit? Id say you not admit, but rather assert, that something has value when you slap a price tag on it.

And if it sells, then the market has agreed. Buyers admit they see value when they pony up.

Revenue from IAPs is subject to VAT taxes, and is potentially taxable revenue.

Does it have value in the legal sense though if you cannot sell it?

JarvisJackrabbit

The next generation will be truly lost having never known RNGesus.

babinro

aesthetocyst said:

@babinro .... for clarification, for those that don't follow (or even much care.....) about such terms and definitions, what in MPQ is considered a 'loot box'?

Are you considering all token types, and multi-token packs of tokens, 'loot boxes'? And would potential regulations see them the same way?

What if tokens were only earnable, not purchasable? That is, the token stores remained, but no longer had HP prices on them? To me, tha tis still gambling with time spent, rather than outside cash, but how do governing bodies see it?

And the vaults ... what if the only option that had a HP price on it was a 'BUY ALL' button? You would still earn earn single pulls through gameplay, but couldn't buy them with cash. You could only buy the entire vault with cash, and would know exactly what you're paying for.

And would making HP only purchasable, no longer earnable/winnable help? If so, there'd have to be a rethink regarding roster slots....those would have to become winnable, or new and casual players would be screwed.

(Can you tell I have not followed this issue at all )

TL;DR - are we talking only about cash transactions here, or also talking about currency that's only earned through gameplay?

I can't answer your question unfortunately.

The discussion of loot boxes and gambling is a huge grey area.   What one State or Country considers gambling or even harmful loot boxes can differ from what another one thinks.

This is a topic that's early in its lifespan and so there's a lot of uncertainty.

For Example:
MPQ sells HP and ISO which can be used to buy random pack things....but also to buy static guaranteed things like ISO boosts and roster slots.  Does this eliminate MPQ from Gambling and loot box claims?    No idea!

Do Vaults count as gambling since they can be bought out even if said cost is excessive?   No idea!

Seems to me if all these gambling games had to do to get around the Belgium gambling claims was to make a 100,000 item vault that could be bought out for 3 million dollars then they would.   I'm guessing the issue is more complex than that but who can really say.

For the record I personally view a loot box as something with a random reward element to it where you can't simply buy the desired item.   In addition, if you can eventually buy the one item but its hidden behind an excessive spending system then that constitutes as a loot box as well.  In other words...vaults don't feel like a BUNDLE offer you'd get from Steam or your cable provider...they are locking the desirable thing behind multiple pay windows to inflate its purchase price.

So even though you can 'buy' a 5* for a mere 720 CP...I still consider LT's to be loot boxes because the system is so heavily weighted in favor of rolling the dice on LT's over buying out a character through CP purchases.

By that same logic I consider vaults to be loot boxes because the cost to buy a 300 item vault is exorbitant relative to the reasonable value of a single 4* support.

A loot box exists when there's a lot of internal manipulation and pressure to win the thing through random means over simply buying it independently.


What I can say is that this is strictly a discussion on spending.
There is no legal precedence of going after the mechanics in a one time purchase game with no added pay models.   Hence why you can have a genuine casino video game exist and it won't be considered real life gambling.  So all the random covers and rewards earned through free to play progression are 100% fine. 

Daiches

Merrick said:

Simple solution. Stop being available to play in Belgium.

Or add a confirmation button. 

“Are you Belgian?”
”Yes”
”Sorry this transaction can’t be completed due to your countries idiotic laws”

I'm Belgian. And there's at least 3 of us! But this is not just a Belgian thing. Europe is looking into it as well, and they are most likely following down the same path.
Maybe they'll fix our 20% price inflation for ingame purchases over the rest of the world at the same time too.

Moon Roach

There's also this:

https://www.polygon.com/2018/2/27/17057978/esrb-loot-crate-box-in-game-purchases-label

ThaRoadWarrior

There are several states in the US who are talking about legislation as well, most notably Hawaii, which means that thinking of this as a "Belgian Problem" is a little short sighted. 

Merrick

The bill here in Hawaii, which doesn’t seem to be actually going anywhere, only applies to people under 21.

If you think any company will be proactive in reducing their profit, you dong understand economics.  

They may have a plan for the eventual world wide implementation of such laws. But until they are forced, they will use anything within the law to keep their profits as high as possible. If that means putting a 21+ age restriction on the game or preventing it from being played in a few smaller markets, they and other games will. 

Jabrony_Geoff

It's fantastic news, well done Belgium Gambling commission I salute you all.
  

jamesh

ThaRoadWarrior said:

When I was at GDC, there were loads of companies promoting blockchain-based technology that would allow for the resale of say digitally purchased games, up to and including the high-level gear that was earned by the previous owner. Is a "used" marketplace the easy-out to lootbox based goods acquisition? I'm not sure it is, even though it ties a real-world exchange value to your virtual good now. It's an interesting conversation to have, and to watch the non-experts in government make sweeping decisions about.

In almost every case, using a blockchain offers no benefits and it is only being used as a buzzword to attract investors.

The one thing a blockchain gives you is a shared transaction ledger without the need for a single trusted party to maintain it.  For MPQ, there is a single party that every player implicitly trusts to maintain the ledger: D3/Demiurge.

If they wanted to add trading/resale to the game, it would be vastly simpler and cheaper (both in terms of development costs and computation costs) to implement it within the existing database.

NMANOZ

The games mentioned in the topic are all full priced games and not free to play.

babinro

NMANOZ said:

The games mentioned in the topic are all full priced games and not free to play.

I've heard this defense to loot boxes in the past and frankly its utterly baffling.

Are we really saying that loot boxes are gambling and gambling is illegal for children...
but its fine because your game was free?

A price adds some barrier to entry.  If anything the more your loot box game costs the better because then only people of legal gambling age will have access to it. 

Vhailorx

jamesh said:

ThaRoadWarrior said:

When I was at GDC, there were loads of companies promoting blockchain-based technology that would allow for the resale of say digitally purchased games, up to and including the high-level gear that was earned by the previous owner. Is a "used" marketplace the easy-out to lootbox based goods acquisition? I'm not sure it is, even though it ties a real-world exchange value to your virtual good now. It's an interesting conversation to have, and to watch the non-experts in government make sweeping decisions about.

In almost every case, using a blockchain offers no benefits and it is only being used as a buzzword to attract investors.

The one thing a blockchain gives you is a shared transaction ledger without the need for a single trusted party to maintain it.  For MPQ, there is a single party that every player implicitly trusts to maintain the ledger: D3/Demiurge.

If they wanted to add trading/resale to the game, it would be vastly simpler and cheaper (both in terms of development costs and computation costs) to implement it within the existing database.

I think the argument runs the other way.  iF governments regulated games such that the flimsy licenses we currently buy in freedom games were transformed into durable property rights, then a subsequent problem would be how to implement that system.  With blockchain. You can have an accurate, decentralized transaction ledger. Without it you either have a decentralized ledger + lots of player cheating, or a centralized ledger + faith that the devs/pubs behave responsibly.

So there is a potentially useful, if minor, role for blockchain to play, even if it is mostly being used as a buzzword to drive investment these days.

Also, I don't understand all the parsing that goes on with loot boxes: cosmetics are good, but pay to win is bad, loot boxes in f2p are  good, but in paid games are bad.  None of that makes sense to me.  If they are gambling and potentially predatory, then that is always true and they should be regulated for public safety in all circumstances.

Phumade

for me personally,  I would pay a subscription price for gaming.  But I want the subscription price to be clear and transparent.  Specifically, I want to know how effectively I can compete and play for a set monthly price.

Right now the avg player has no concept of "how much" it takes to compete at 575, 900, 1200 point tiers.

I have long played EA games (fifa, madden etc) and purchased them full price EACH year.

I would have no qualms paying $20 a month for the ability to play any EA "sports" or even a seperate subscrption to play EA "fps" games.

but I was also expect that my subscription enabled me to compete at certain level (i.e. subscription comes with buffed players or whatever their mechanic is)

and specifically that I not be forced to regrind every new game I play in my subscription

I would be more intrigued by a "$15 VIP" subscription that did the same as what vip already does,  but allowed me to play adventure time or mtg puzzle quest  at the scl5/6 equivalency

NeonBlue

Also, I don't understand all the parsing that goes on with loot boxes: cosmetics are good, but pay to win is bad, loot boxes in f2p are  good, but in paid games are bad.  None of that makes sense to me.  If they are gambling and potentially predatory, then that is always true and they should be regulated for public safety in all circumstances.

Parsing Loot boxes applies to when people accept loot boxes as a necessary condition for keeping a game alive. Parsing is a way to differentiate between loot boxes that are insidious to the game, and others that are considered tertiary. For these people, predatory practices are relative, and arguments over targeting children or people with addiction never come into focus. 

Those who parse are not concerned about public safety, they are concerned about how it will affect their own user experience. They are okay with predatory practices as long as they aren't the prey

mpqr7

Wow, loot boxes were recently discussed in the New York Times!
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/04/24/business/loot-boxes-video-games.html 

Phumade

personally h4h has been a great replacement for loot boxes.  I can see exactly what I'm about to purchase, and I'm guaranteed to get what I want to buy.  No RNG involved.

Either the deal is useful and worth buying or its not.

Hate loot boxes when you have no idea what your gonna get.