Goodbye Loot Box. Hello Heroes for Hire?

babinro

Context: 
For those not in the know.   The Belgian Gambling Commission has concluded after analysis that "Paid loot boxes are gambling".   In an effort to follow up on this they have investigated the games Overwatch, Fifa 2018 and CS:GO and determined that these games will be handled as a criminal offense unless action is taken to remove loot boxes within a certain time frame.

While the Belgian Gambling Commission represents the most extreme case against loot boxes we are seeing various countries around the world come together in support of taking action against loot boxes.


Potential Issue:
Marvel Puzzle Quest is a game that exists on the back of loot boxes.  

Pay to win loot boxes at that (although the actions against Overwatch proves that pay to win doesn't even need to be a factor).  Now I want to be 100% clear about my personal stance here.   Pay to Win Loot boxes don't bother me.  If they did I wouldn't have played MPQ for 1516 days and counting.  However, it is possible that even if the community likes what MPQ is doing that things may have to drastically change in order for this game to stay within the confines of the law for various countries.


Potential Solution: Heroes for Hire
Ask some of the vets online about some of these Heroes for Hire deals we've seen and you'll learn that people ARE buying them.  Frankly, several of these deals have been great when you consider the return you'd get on simply buying ISO or HP from those stores.

Seems to me MPQ has the opportunity to PROACTIVELY remove loot boxes from this game while still offering something that players actually enjoy spending money on.

Imagine for a moment:

- All Loot Box random draw stores are gone
- In their place we have tons of new Heroes for Hire style offers catering to all stages of the game and cycling through the roster of characters over time.
- LT's are converted into Heroes for Hire Tokens for certain stores.
- Save enough LT's (seven for example to represent current odds) and you can spend them on a store that contains a 5* character.

Suddenly you have a game that's no longer considered gambling by some countries but also removes the potential frustrations of RNG draws.

What does the community think?
Is this a good potential future for the game?
Do you think MPQ could remain profitable?

PenniesForEveryone

Do you have a link to anything where we can read more on exactly what makes a loot box gambling vs. not?

Draws now aren't truly random - there is a reward table that seems to be unique to each player, but fixed and hidden to that player.  It's a technicality, but potentially an out - maybe just make that table visible to the player?

I would be fine with a system like what you have described though - or just have LTs cycle through 4* rewards and every 7th reward is a 5*.  And something similar for all other tokens as well.  It would make the game deterministic and add a lot more strategy (puzzle?) to the game by giving players a more defined path to developing the roster they want.

Merrick

Simple solution. Stop being available to play in Belgium.

Or add a confirmation button. 

“Are you Belgian?”
”Yes”
”Sorry this transaction can’t be completed due to your countries laws”

//Removed Insult -Brigby

Bowgentle

Devs are married to RNG.
Not going to happen.

broll

PenniesForEveryone said:

Do you have a link to anything where we can read more on exactly what makes a loot box gambling vs. not?

Draws now aren't truly random - there is a reward table that seems to be unique to each player, but fixed and hidden to that player.  It's a technicality, but potentially an out - maybe just make that table visible to the player?

I would be fine with a system like what you have described though - or just have LTs cycle through 4* rewards and every 7th reward is a 5*.  And something similar for all other tokens as well.  It would make the game deterministic and add a lot more strategy (puzzle?) to the game by giving players a more defined path to developing the roster they want.

I would like to see that also.  There are clearly rules around what does or does not apply.  Example:

It determined FIFA 18, Overwatch and CS:GO's loot boxes are a game of chance and so are subject to Belgian gambling law. Battlefront 2, at the time the investigation was conducted, did not have loot boxes, so escapes unscathed.
- https://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2018-04-25-now-belgium-declares-loot-boxes-gambling-and-therefore-illegal

So BF2's recent change to cosmetic loot boxes doesn't apply, but others listed above do.  I've read several articles but none that clearly lay out what the rational between what is or is not one, just list the same few games that have been loot box or not.

babinro

PenniesForEveryone said:

Do you have a link to anything where we can read more on exactly what makes a loot box gambling vs. not?

Draws now aren't truly random - there is a reward table that seems to be unique to each player, but fixed and hidden to that player.  It's a technicality, but potentially an out - maybe just make that table visible to the player?

I would be fine with a system like what you have described though - or just have LTs cycle through 4* rewards and every 7th reward is a 5*.  And something similar for all other tokens as well.  It would make the game deterministic and add a lot more strategy (puzzle?) to the game by giving players a more defined path to developing the roster they want.

https://www.reddit.com/r/JimSterling/comments/8esewz/belgian_gambling_commission_concludes_after/

This is where I learned it.   The original article was written in Dutch and translated onto this reddit I follow.  I'm operating under the assumption this is a legit thing and not just someone trolling. 

I've seen several other youtubers make news stories on this topic now so it seems legit.

BoyWonder1914

PenniesForEveryone said:

Draws now aren't truly random - there is a reward table that seems to be unique to each player, but fixed and hidden to that player.  It's a technicality, but potentially an out - maybe just make that table visible to the player?

Say what? You're saying the game already knows what my next 5 pulls from the standard, elite, heroic, and legendary token stores are going to be? How do we truly know this? 

Bowgentle

BoyWonder1914 said:

PenniesForEveryone said:

Draws now aren't truly random - there is a reward table that seems to be unique to each player, but fixed and hidden to that player.  It's a technicality, but potentially an out - maybe just make that table visible to the player?

Say what? You're saying the game already knows what my next 5 pulls from the standard, elite, heroic, and legendary token stores are going to be? How do we truly know this? 

Because you can draw on various devices and will get the same results every time.

madoctor

I don't know what the legal view on this is. But is the current system of using of virtual currency to open RNG based tokens considered as loot boxes? I thought the term "lootbox" would apply to use of actual money to DIRECTLY buy certain boxes/groups of items which contain better odds than those stores which are available without spending real money. EG. You spend real money to get 10 LTs to a special store which has 5* odds set at say 30% instead of the normal 15%?

EDIT - what I mean to ask is since MPQ is not selling the tokens directly for money, but for a virtual in game currency, and the odds remain the same whether you are a paying customer or not, is it under the "lootbox" definition? Is the term being confused for microtransactions? In fact I feel the recent "Clearance Level" packs in the Heroes for Hire store rather falls into the lootbox category since you are paying money straight up in exchange of the covers etc?

broll

madoctor said:

I don't know what the legal view on this is. But is the current system of using of virtual currency to open RNG based tokens considered as loot boxes? I thought the term "lootbox" would apply to use of actual money to DIRECTLY buy certain boxes/groups of items which contain better odds than those stores which are available without spending real money. EG. You spend real money to get 10 LTs to a special store which has 5* odds set at say 30% instead of the normal 15%?

The law started processing in direct response to BF2's original loot box system which is pretty close to this games.  You get some currency in game, but could also buy it.  Almost all progression based on RNG loot boxed rewards.

BF2 no longer applies seemingly because last month or so they changed their progression to be based on leveling and the loot boxes now just offer different skins.

ThaRoadWarrior

Loot Box regulation is a far-reaching can of worms. I'm curious if it will ultimately find it's way into blind-pack physical goods like CCG cards. There is no meaningful difference aside from one thing providing a re-saleable physical good vs a digital good of dubious intrinsic value. Possibly they'll have to get special-case exempted the way Crane Games are exempt from gambling machine regulations in the states. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Claw_crane

I think there are some items that must be in place for loot boxes to be exempt, one I've seen mentioned a lot is specific odds of acquiring a certain item per draw, things like that. 

PenniesForEveryone

babinro said:

PenniesForEveryone said:

Do you have a link to anything where we can read more on exactly what makes a loot box gambling vs. not?

Draws now aren't truly random - there is a reward table that seems to be unique to each player, but fixed and hidden to that player.  It's a technicality, but potentially an out - maybe just make that table visible to the player?

I would be fine with a system like what you have described though - or just have LTs cycle through 4* rewards and every 7th reward is a 5*.  And something similar for all other tokens as well.  It would make the game deterministic and add a lot more strategy (puzzle?) to the game by giving players a more defined path to developing the roster they want.

https://www.reddit.com/r/JimSterling/comments/8esewz/belgian_gambling_commission_concludes_after/

This is where I learned it.   The original article was written in Dutch and translated onto this reddit I follow.  I'm operating under the assumption this is a legit thing and not just someone trolling. 

I've seen several other youtubers make news stories on this topic now so it seems legit.

Thanks.  From the article:

Peter Naessens, director of the Gambling Commission: "Paid loot boxes aren't an innocent part of video games which present themselves as a game of skill. Players get tempted and seduced by them and no part of the measures on gambling are applied. Now it's clear that in particularly children and vulnerable individuals are exposed to it, game developers and also involved parties are called to halt these practices."

The phrase "game of skill" caught my eye.  I wonder if instead of just selling loot boxes games will start selling a premium currency that unlocks a trivial "game of skill" which rewards a random prize.  Or do you think this is a move to more or less eliminate or minimize RNG-based progression industry-wide?

ThaRoadWarrior

the phrase Game of Skill has long been used to separate video games from "gaming machines," which refer to slot machines and their variations. There was famously a big Pinball court case where somebody had to go in front of the court and prove it was possible to be actively good at Pinball to remove it's status as a gambling machine.
https://gizmodo.com/how-one-perfect-shot-saved-pinball-from-being-illegal-1154267979
MPQ can be a game of skill, even though it contains that element of pay for a chance at a slot machine payout. It's going to depend heavily on how the regulations are ultimately worded. To me what is most alarming is who the "fines and prison sentences" are going to be aimed at in cases of violation. The developer? the designer? the publisher? the IP holder?

Stax the Foyer

They just didn't weigh in on BF2's lootboxes (yet).  Doesn't mean it's not covered, doesn't mean it is.  Probably will be, though.

randomhero1090

MPQ does have stated odds.  You can also earn points to open said "boxes."  There is absolutely no force to pay.  You can earn literally everything in the game for free.  It appears that a matchmaking approach has been taken to cater to all sorts of players.  Not saying it's perfect, but it at least looks that way.

As a former competitive FIFA player, very familiar with it's setup and can say how it differs from MPQ.  The points to open "packs" cannot be earned.  The packs do not have any stated odds.  However, the game is still "free to play" and you are not "forced" to buy anything other then the game itself to play it.

I have absolutely no issue with "pay to win" or "pay to grow" or whatever you want to call it.  But it should be honest and regulated.  I don't believe that FIFA is.  I am not even going to go down that rabbit hole here, but there was enough "proof" to get me to walk away from the game and haven't looked back.

Some say the accounts/content don't have any value.  That is absolutely not true.  In the case of FIFA, accounts become extremely valuable.  People sell their content, and it's against TOS.  My argument is, if I paid money for the points to open the content, and EA made the money, then why can't I sell my contents to someone?  Well, we all know that answer

I am happy to see some regulation here.  And I do expect to see some drastic changes in the "free to play" market.  I would expect to see more "CL packs."  Clearly defined in what you are paying for.

Anyway, spent years discussing this topic on the FIFA side of the house.  FIFA made literally billions on microtransactions on the FIFA franchise alone.

Vhailorx

About damn time!  The idea that paid loot boxes were substantively different from gambling has always been ridiculous (it was equally ridiculous that wizards of the coast and other trading card makers got away with it for decades).  It's long past time for some stricter rules about this business practice (that so easily turns into pure predation).

If this ruling just applies to Belgium, however, then I would expect nothing more than for MPQ to be removed from the itunes/play stores. Belgium alone doesn't have the market strength to make an impact.  But belgium is an EU nation, so will this ruling have reciprocal effects elsewhere in the EU?  Any keen ECJ observers here?  If the entire EU turns against loot boxes, that is a big enough market that devs and pubs will have to make significant changes. 

Also, MPQ does have stated odds, but the odds splash page is **** as has been since vaulting was introduced.  It's very difficult to actually figure out the odds of any given card, and the bonus heroes display is outright deceptive.  I have been griping about this publicly and privately on these forums for more than  year now, and there is no indication that demi has any interest in fixing the problem.  I would not give demi/d3 much credit when it comes to disclosing pack odds to players.

Phumade

the ultimate question of what constitutes a loot box really hasn't been definitively answered in a legal context.

Ultimately,  there isn't any controlling legal authority in the US let alone the world that conclusively states what elements constitutes a loot box.

The belgium commission is a great first step at defining a loot box,  but ultimately it come down to either the courts either stating a standard or explicitly saying that they accept the commissions position.

I agree with the other posters.  There needs to be clear guidelines on what is a permissible loot box (cosmetic looks?) vs gambling to advance in the game.  anything else is demi sticking its head in the sand with a huge target on its but, asking to be kicked by a sharp lawyer.

NeonBlue

randomhero1090 said:

MPQ does have stated odds.  You can also earn points to open said "boxes."  There is absolutely no force to pay.  You can earn literally everything in the game for free.  It appears that a matchmaking approach has been taken to cater to all sorts of players.  Not saying it's perfect, but it at least looks that way.

The two conditions to loot boxes that everyone brings up in loot box discussions are (1) Do loot boxes affect gameplay, and (2) how frequently can you acquire loot boxes as a non-paying player?

However, it seems like this entity is not interested in the nuances of loot box implementation. They want to get rid of all loot boxes that can be bought with real-world currency, no matter how insidious or benign, because they want to attack that connection between participating in a chance-based system and real money as a participation fee. By attacking all purchasable loot boxes, it forego's the grey area of "oh, but these loot boxes are just cosmetic and doesn't give me a competitive advantage" or "they are super generous with how many loot boxes they give you just by playing."

Drawing the line anywhere in the middle opens up the discussion to significant criticism. So, their solution is to attack the whole system and let the gaming industry sort it out. It's a much more convincing sell and headline to be able to go on the news and tell parents "we're ending gambling in your children's games" than to say "we're ending gambling in your children's games if they affect in-game mechanics and the rate at which you can earn them is less than one lootbox per four hours of gameplay."

Dragon_Nexus

ThaRoadWarrior said:

Loot Box regulation is a far-reaching can of worms. I'm curious if it will ultimately find it's way into blind-pack physical goods like CCG cards. There is no meaningful difference aside from one thing providing a re-saleable physical good vs a digital good of dubious intrinsic value.

See that right there is THE distinction that changes everything.

If I buy a pack of cards and nothing is what I want, I can sell those to someone. I can trade them for something else. I can put them in a frame and admire them forever. I can DO stuff with them.

If I open a loot box in, say, Overwatch, I might get four sprays. I don't want any of them because they're for characters I'm not good at or don't enjoy playing as. So what can I do with them? Nothing. Can't sell them, trade them or do anything with them. I've spent money to buy a box and got nothing of value to me in return and no way to change them for something of value.

Essentially that's putting a coin into a one-armed bandit and getting a cherry, a lemon and a bar.

This is the real issue at play, the current laws as pertaining to gambling and the like are not up to date when it comes to video games. Suddenly, due to EA pushing so hard and so fast with this kind of system on a franchise known well beyond the gaming world, the eyes of the world are looking closely at all forms of random chance in games with regards to player rewards.  So much so that a lot of publishers are starting to shy away from loot boxes. Some companies are starting to patch them out as this fear of the tides changing takes hold.

MPQ does what it can to toe the line. It shows the odds of what you might get (sort of, they do obfuscate it with ratios rather than cold, hard percentages) and they've implimented systems whereby the majority of covers you pull can be swapped for something more useful, be it a champ level or sold for ISO.

That said, all games of this ilk work by using the same gambling techniques employed by casinos. Lots of sunk cost fallacy, gambler's fallacy and so on. Little tricks to make you spend a little bit more. If you have an addictive personality you need to be mindful of it all.

ThaRoadWarrior

When I was at GDC, there were loads of companies promoting blockchain-based technology that would allow for the resale of say digitally purchased games, up to and including the high-level gear that was earned by the previous owner. Is a "used" marketplace the easy-out to lootbox based goods acquisition? I'm not sure it is, even though it ties a real-world exchange value to your virtual good now. It's an interesting conversation to have, and to watch the non-experts in government make sweeping decisions about.

randomhero1090

NeonBlue said:

randomhero1090 said:

MPQ does have stated odds.  You can also earn points to open said "boxes."  There is absolutely no force to pay.  You can earn literally everything in the game for free.  It appears that a matchmaking approach has been taken to cater to all sorts of players.  Not saying it's perfect, but it at least looks that way.

The two conditions to loot boxes that everyone brings up in loot box discussions are (1) Do loot boxes affect gameplay, and (2) how frequently can you acquire loot boxes as a non-paying player?

However, it seems like this entity is not interested in the nuances of loot box implementation. They want to get rid of all loot boxes that can be bought with real-world currency, no matter how insidious or benign, because they want to attack that connection between participating in a chance-based system and real money as a participation fee. By attacking all purchasable loot boxes, it forego's the grey area of "oh, but these loot boxes are just cosmetic and doesn't give me a competitive advantage" or "they are super generous with how many loot boxes they give you just by playing."

Drawing the line anywhere in the middle opens up the discussion to significant criticism. So, their solution is to attack the whole system and let the gaming industry sort it out. It's a much more convincing sell and headline to be able to go on the news and tell parents "we're ending gambling in your children's games" than to say "we're ending gambling in your children's games if they affect in-game mechanics and the rate at which you can earn them is less than one lootbox per four hours of gameplay."

It's standard gov't regulation.  Broad, high-level, sound-bite type implementation.  It's another standard case of "since people can't control themselves, we will regulate."

But, you get kids involved...  then I get it.  I do.  My son plays Fortnite like crazy, and those v-bucks are way too easy to buy.  So I gotta be all over it.