Broken MMR penalizes players for progress

Jwallyr
Jwallyr Posts: 165 Tile Toppler
in MPQ General Discussion
TL,DR version: MMR penalizes players in Versus mode for improving their roster, while Story mode gives players control to experience higher difficulties gradually as their roster improves.

So a little backstory- I've been hoarding CP for a while, and on Friday a friend of mine convinced me to bust open the hoard and start buying Classic picks. I've been a 3* champ tier player for a while now, with just the dregs of the 3star tier left un-champed, and I have been slowly accumulating 4stars but have been worried about HP to roster them all.

Like I said, my friend convinced me that it would be to my benefit to spend some CP and champ Rogue (was 4/1/3 at the time) and up my Story game a bracket or so, score higher placement, etc. Once I started opening the packs it was addictive, and I was getting really excited at the prospect of being able to level/use a few of the better-covered 4stars in my roster!

...Then I tried to play the Eye For An Eye versus match, and apparently due to having a single (one) (1) champed 4* character (Rogue) along with a number of one-cover/non-leveled 5stars has bumped my MMR up where I am CONSTANTLY being matched against full-4*-champed teams, often boosted/champed 4stars in that event. Literally 24 hours prior, I was being matched against 3star champion teams, so with no change to my activity in Versus. I have heard discussions of a hidden MMR and its effect on players, but I figured that surely the single champed 4star wouldn't suddenly demolish any chances I have of playing predominantly 3* teams with maybe other 3*/3*/4* teams like mine would be, right? HA.

So I thought about it, and I want to do a bit of compare/contrast between Versus and Story mode:

Story mode:
1) Players are allowed to select any CL they like, other than the minimum level requirements (that are laughably low, by the way) that keep players from immediately jumping to an unreasonable difficulty level before trying out story mode.
2) Players are presented with clear outlines of the levels of the enemies they will be facing, and can use that as a rough gauge by which to pick a CL.
3) Players are presented with intelligible reward schemes which are graded fairly well for the challenge level of the CL

Versus mode:
1) Players are forced into higher CLs than they might like as a clumsy effort to encourage higher level players to leave the newbies alone, instead of having the rewards scale appropriately and drawing the higher level players naturally to the higher brackets.
2) Players are given NO indication of the quality of opponents which will be selected for them anywhere in the game's UI. The CL appears to have zero impact on the quality of opponents that will be faced. Instead, it appears that players' rosters are mathed into an MMR. This MMR:
    a) Fails utterly to account for disparities between characters in game balance (how can it?)
    b) Appears to be laughably clumsy, as a single champed 4star in my roster apparently means that I'm supposed to only see full 4star champ teams as opponents
3) Players are presented with a sane Placement reward scheme and a complete garbage progression scheme, with rewards at low brackets that are 100% unachievable for players at the appropriate roster levels, and the majority of which high level players are often able to trivially scoop up in a few games, making "win-based progression" unappealing for them.

I got to ~1969 in Shield Sim this afternoon, after a couple of levels of hard uphill slogs against better teams, and hit a solid wall of R&G/G4mora/Medusa. I skipped dozens of those teams before finally settling for another 4/4/4 team. By the time the match ended, I had taken 2 hits and was lower than I started, and I looked to see that I had been attacked (and I assume trivially destroyed) by a couple of R&G/G4mora/Medusa teams, full champed of course. Apparently that's considered a reasonable match by the in-game matchmaker?

So, to round it all out, that's why I argue that the in-game matchmaking system is broken, and leads to players being penalized for improving their rosters. This is a poor experience for players, and discourages them from continuing to be playing (and paying) customers. A sane matchmaking system would allow players to self-segregate by CLs, and a sane rewards scheme would encourage players to move up CLs to fight for bigger and better rewards naturally as their rosters improve and they feel capable of competing at a higher level. This system where CLs mostly don't matter except that they force players whose rosters are still improving into higher CLs for no obvious reason to compete for rewards that they may find unachievable is dumb. It's even more stupid that I can be in the exact same CL one day, facing predominantly champed 3star opponents, and the next day I'm fighting predominantly champed 4star opponents because I have leveled one character with zero indication of what's going on in the in-game UI and zero ability for me to voluntarily reduce my potential rewards by reducing my CL to maintain a playable experience.

Note: I have zero interest in being lectured about how I should have done exhaustive forum research to figure out the vagaries of Versus MMR before doing precisely what the in-game UI is constantly encouraging me to do. If the only way to prevent a player from getting demolished in Versus due to broken MMR is to deliberately avoid leveling your characters, the developers of the game have a responsibility not to encourage players to do the exact opposite, and avoid leveling their characters! Isn't the whole point of the game to recruit new and better characters, and train/level them up to fight bigger and better things? The problem is that the clumsy, invisible Versus MMR and the clumsy, half-baked Versus CL systems give growing players a great big reality check right to the face.

I hope the devs will read this and consider the impact that MMR is having on this sample size of one. I reallydoubt that I'm the only semi-casual player (maintained VIP for several months now, play every event aggressively but rarely buy other currency in-game and don't shield much in Versus) to ever save up for a CP hoard, crack it open and get progressively more excited about using my new characters, and then to have those hopes get dashed on a wall of inappropriate versus matchups.
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Comments

  • Daiches
    Daiches Posts: 1,252 Chairperson of the Boards
    This is a temporary issue. Its just like when you transitioned from 2s to 3s. Champ a few more 4s and you'll soon be okay again. Rogue is a good character to start with. And yes, those 5s do still have an impact if your 3s aren't mostly max champed.
    It may not spell it out in game, but it does say for more information, visit the forums. Consider this place the manual to the game. If you don't read the manual, you're going to run into some issues.
  • Jwallyr
    Jwallyr Posts: 165 Tile Toppler
    So it's ok for players to have a horrible, counter-intuitive experience in progressing through the game, as long as it's "temporary"? And how temporary is it going to be if I don't happen to get lucky and champ the few, specific, meta-defining characters? (R&G/G4mora/Medusa are some of my worst-covered 4stars, and are EVERYWHERE.)

    Yeah, I'm not convinced.
  • slabag
    slabag Posts: 12 Just Dropped In
    edited April 2018
    You have three options before you then; if your that unsatisfied with your choice to level and champ a 4*.

    1. Sell it - not recommended because Rogue is good.

    2. Wait until Thursday when she won’t be boosted - this will significantly lower your mmr.

    3. Deal with it and continue to grow your roster.

    Im not trying to be harsh but that’s he path before you. 




  • shadowyoshi
    shadowyoshi Posts: 153 Tile Toppler
    Jwallyr said:
    So it's ok for players to have a horrible, counter-intuitive experience in progressing through the game, as long as it's "temporary"? And how temporary is it going to be if I don't happen to get lucky and champ the few, specific, meta-defining characters? (R&G/G4mora/Medusa are some of my worst-covered 4stars, and are EVERYWHERE.)

    Yeah, I'm not convinced.
    The meta-defining characters are not required at any level except maybe Shield Sim (that is going to be rough for a long time with only 1 4* champ). Still, Rogue is a great 1st champ for countering that meta (she's slow but can also slow them down).

    Also, the weekly boost list is far more a driver of everything. While you're still a little bit away from there, the point where you usually have one champed 4 boosted is the end of temporary pain in PVP.
  • Huntah86
    Huntah86 Posts: 221 Tile Toppler
    MMR might be broken for your specific instance but not overall. It takes into account you top 5 or so characters and only looks at levels. Its happened to tons of people, myself included. I made the mistake of leveling up my 5* single cover characters before I even had solid 3* champs. PVP was almost impossible for a few months but I just threw on some boosts and toughed it out. Learned from my mistake, fixed my roster and now I single shield after hitting anywhere from 1k - 1200 each PVP with little struggle. Your friend screwed you over with poor advice but you can either stop playing or plow on. Once Rogue is no longer boosted your matches will be dramatically easier too. Side note, your SCL level ONLY matters for rewards, it has nothing to do with who your matched against and shouldnt.
  • BigSoftieFF
    BigSoftieFF Posts: 454 Mover and Shaker
    aesthetocyst said:
    Jwallyr said:
    ... Story mode gives players control to experience higher difficulties gradually as their roster improves.

    Keep working, speaking from experience, you'll find it gets easier and easier.




    Agreed, when I first champed 4* Gamora she was boosted and it went to tinykitty. 3 months and several champs later it has evened out nicely and I can get to 900 if I decide I want the cover. It does get old fighting Grockamedusa in sim though.
  • Dormammu
    Dormammu Posts: 3,531 Chairperson of the Boards
    MMR is tough on transitioners. What're you gonna do.  :|
  • ZootSax
    ZootSax Posts: 1,819 Chairperson of the Boards
    Jwallyr said:
    So it's ok for players to have a horrible, counter-intuitive experience in progressing through the game, as long as it's "temporary"? And how temporary is it going to be if I don't happen to get lucky and champ the few, specific, meta-defining characters? (R&G/G4mora/Medusa are some of my worst-covered 4stars, and are EVERYWHERE.)

    Yeah, I'm not convinced.
    Until you get at least a couple more 4* champs, unfortunately PVP will be painful.  I champed my first 4*’s as I covered them without regard for color overlap or how good they were, which made Devil Dino, Nick Fury and Star Lord my first three.  With those driving my MMR, it was difficult to match my PVP performance from when I was a 2* player (except in DD & SL’s boost weeks), which was immensely frustrating. 

    The key to breaking out was to get a 4* who would still let me hit 575 out of their boost week (for me it was 4Thor, but your results almost definitely will vary).  For the first season or so after that, I was locked into one team (4Thor, IM40, featured character), but soon my 4* progress continued where I had a better chance of having at least one boosted character.

    I’m not saying MMR isn’t severely flawed or that it’s fundamentally necessary in it’s current form—-just that you’ll escape the worst of it if you press through for a season or two (less if you’re more competitive in PVE than I am).  If you have Rogue and a heavy hitter as your first two 4*’s, you’ll probably be able to manage in normal weeks and thrive if one or both are boosted.  

    As for Medusa and Grocket, it’s a particularly punishing meta for a early transitioner.  The best counters for them are all not only 4*’s, but outside the “latest 12” as well (Carol, XPool, Thing, Rocket, Medusa, etc).  Search the forums and people probably have better 3* solutions than I can think of off the top of my head.  

    Regardless good luck.
  • HoundofShadow
    HoundofShadow Posts: 8,004 Chairperson of the Boards
    I think your friend don't like you. :D  I don't see how champing Rogue alone can help you better in higher SCL (I'm referring to SCL 8&9 because you don't need champed 4* to fight in SCL 7) in PvE. Besides her tripling ap gain and 75% damage reduction, her red cost is pretty high at 12ap dealing ~6000 damages with ap gaining. I think your friend was intending to ask you to use her as a meat shield. As for PvP, Rogue is boosted and that's why you are seeing 4* champed. Observe if it is still the same after Rogue is unboosted (266 vs 366?). I think we have similar progress before you champed 4* Rogue. Coincidentally, Rogue looks to be my first 4*to be champed.
  • mega ghost
    mega ghost Posts: 1,156 Chairperson of the Boards
    I get the frustration, but you'll be fine. Back in the early days of 4* characters, I had my 4* Wolverine at maybe 7 or 8 covers and decided to bring him up to around lvl. 170, I believe. None of my 3* were maxed at 166 yet (this was before champing) and most were at least 60+ levels below that. There also were no SCLs at this point, and as a result my MMR change ruined my ability to compete. Playing even a basic node in PvE was a bit out of my league. Over the next several months I slowly leveled my roster as evenly as I could, bringing all of my 3* characters to lvl. 120 first, then 130, etc.

    In any case, your situation isn't nearly as dire. Rogue is awesome. Play more PvE for a little bit until you're strong enough for PvP again (although you should still be able to get to 300-575 without much issue). Just consider yourself as having leveled up and being at the bottom of your new tier.
  • Pr0spect0r
    Pr0spect0r Posts: 291 Mover and Shaker
    I feel like I've read this exact same post before.  like I saw the title and was thinking someone was practicing necromancy again
  • mega ghost
    mega ghost Posts: 1,156 Chairperson of the Boards
    Pr0spect0r said:
    I feel like I've read this exact same post before.  like I saw the title and was thinking someone was practicing necromancy again
    I know I've shared my reply before.
  • carrion_pigeons
    carrion_pigeons Posts: 942 Critical Contributor
    It does suck that there's so little room in the matchmaking for "one boosted 4* champ and a couple 3*s", but it can't be that surprising. The number of people with that configuration is just never going to be very big.  I end up in that part of the game every one in a while too, and it does mean skipping more than usual.  (Not that I'm an avid player at the best of times.)  On the other hand, having one boosted champ means you get to blow stuff up like you haven't even seen.  You might not be as competitive right now, but these will be some of the most fun matches of your week. 
  • Crnch73
    Crnch73 Posts: 504 Critical Contributor
    Maybe when someone reaches a certain level (multiple champed 5s?) the MMR evens out because... it just has to? But as someone with almost 50 champed 4s and one champed 5... I can attest it’s always been broken. 

    Now, this isn’t to say we all didn’t have to go through it, so it’s survivable. But just because it’s survivable (which also means it was not as fun as it could be) doesn’t make it correct. It’s definitely messed up and will be until you hit the highest point. 
  • Shintok17
    Shintok17 Posts: 620 Critical Contributor
    I think your MMR went up so high because not only did you champ Rogue, but she is also boosted at the moment. That makes things even worse for you. I went through the MMR woes and have learned to deal with it. I have accepted that I will not get top 10 in PVP, so I get my 725 and sometimes 900 progression rewards and just let the attacks come in and hope to get top 100 to feed my 2* farm in the end. I don't waste my HP on shields either. Just climb fast and hope for the best. I have to agree that the way MMR is set up is flawed. It punishes you for leveling your 5*'s or championing your roster at any level instead of making you feel stronger so you can earn better rewards. Instead your bombarded with opponents way stronger than you, which results in worse rewards or the same. But in turn if you do level up or champ your 5*'s or 4*'s your PVE matches go faster and you get better rewards from placement. It's like the game is making you choose between if you want to succeed in PVE or PVP, instead of it being connected.
  • PenniesForEveryone
    PenniesForEveryone Posts: 294 Mover and Shaker
    It's Player versus Player, obviously it's going to match you up with other like players.  Or more importantly - it's not just going to give you a sea of 3* cupcakes for you to wail on with your shiny new champed (and boosted) 4*.  You created a roster than very very few players have - you had a whole slew of champed 3*s and then a single level 370+ 4*.  Not many players have that, and so you get matched up with the closest thing - which is teams of champed 4*s.  As you continue to champ other 4*s the matchmaker will be able to give you more fair matchups
  • Calnexin
    Calnexin Posts: 1,078 Chairperson of the Boards
    I'll add my voice to increase your sample size to 2.

    I've never really enjoyed the PvP experience.  The idea of losing progress by not spending premium currency (and quite often in addition to spending premium currency) is very discouraging, and the boost mechanics basically mean you fight slight variations of one or two teams every event.  There's only so much experimentation you can do unless you enjoy wasting your time for no benefit.

    The only time I was really able to do well at that mode was in late 4* transition, prior to champing 5*.  Before I had about a dozen 4* champs I never managed to climb very high.  I gradually got better at it to the point where I could finally hit 1200.

    Then I champed my first 5*, and things got tougher.  Then my 2nd, and things got tougher still.  Then Gambit appeared, and suddenly my float point was approximately 5.

    All the while, it's limited opponent selection, often requiring several thousand Iso worth of skips to find a roster that's approximately equivalent to my best team selection.  It's exceedingly rare to find easier ones, and rarer still to find teams that are worth more than 40 points that aren't the meta-defining nearly unbeatable teams.  As it stands now, I'm mostly facing off against at least one 5* champ, usually two.  The matches take forever, because their health pools are about 3x what the 4*s are, but the matches aren't worth any more points.  So I spend longer on the match, leaving myself more open to hits, to lose more progress, and STILL can't find matches worth more points.  It just bumps my MMR down slightly so I find slightly less difficult teams for the same points.

    I've given up on being competitive in the mode, because it's a dull slog fighting the same teams for middling progress to, in the best-case scenario, a 4* cover I no longer need (I'm not going to delude myself into thinking 1200 will ever be achievable, at least not while Gambit exists in his current form).  It's boring, frustrating, and unrewarding.

    For you, there is a sweet spot in the 4* tier.  Once you have enough champed to have boosted options and effective counters to the meta, you can make good progress and earn relevant rewards with diligent shield use.  Don't go past that until you've either decided to move on from PvP or spend your kids' college fund on the game.

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