Are supports already dead?

Orion

I'm afraid they're going to roll out too many supports too quickly without the infrastructure to back it up.  Rolling out 10 more supports seems pretty dumb since most people still only have the original 3 and not enough red ISO to level any of them.

If they really want hundreds of supports like they say, it's going to be a ridiculous amount to luck to get that 1 OP support they will accidentally roll out.  I'm not looking forward to it.

veny

mpqr7 said:

It's a super slow roll-out. In a few months/years, it will be useful, and then we'll all laugh off all the fears people used to have.

I can tell that the devs/producers don't want to roll out something too powerful too quickly.

That being said, I have equipped a few but don't really notice their affects, and I don't gain enough riso to upgrade them in a way that matters, so it's been pretty minimal for me.

In a few years i will have army of maxed 5*s and some tiny supports wont be very helpful.
I was not grinding for 3000 hours to get feature that basically forces me to grind again from the very beginning.
If players history was reflected somehow, support would equaly contribute to players power (not in absolute numbers, but is some percentage).

tanis3303

Orion said:

I'm afraid they're going to roll out too many supports too quickly without the infrastructure to back it up.  Rolling out 10 more supports seems pretty dumb since most people still only have the original 3 and not enough red ISO to level any of them.

If they really want hundreds of supports like they say, it's going to be a ridiculous amount to luck to get that 1 OP support they will accidentally roll out.  I'm not looking forward to it.

But...does it even matter? You've been around at least as long as I have, our rosters don't need these things anyway. They provide a barely noticeable advantage strictly to a mode of play that players like us have no issue beating at the highest level available anyway...IMO they were a pointless waste of development time and resources when there are TONS of other problems and issues that are discussed daily around here, but thats thru the eyes of a nearly day one player. Maybe the new guys with one 3* and a decent support love them. But for me, I got my three free ones, used CP for the Dr Strange pack (I wanted his covers for the champ rewards, not so much for the supports) and equipped the guns on Gambit because he fires a lot of powers, and that was all I did with them. I'm actually thinking I'm gonna remove them because the 22 damage the attack tiles do when they appear isn't worth the time it takes for the little fist to float up the screen at the end of the turn...

TL:DR - Supports are a swing and a miss as far as I'm concerned, but they're also not aimed at players like me, so meh.

LavaManLee

I think the problem with supports is that they are of not much use to many high 4/5* rosters.  It's great that some have things like "8% chance to earn an extra red on a red match".  But when some of the supports have "25 more damage on a yellow match" or "gain 100 health with a purple match", that is just laughable for most high ranked players.

It would have been better to do something like "2% more damage on a yellow match" or "3% health boost with red match".  That would help all teams.

JMHO.

Punter1

Unfortunately the devs shot themselves in the foot with these. 

They were trumpeted as an exciting new feature that's taken dev time for the last few months and been the reason we've not seen other developments in game for many moons. 

Then they arrived in a half-hearted release that gave no benefit to long term players with some obvious shortcomings such as poor usability & UI. 

We're also left to guess when things might improve. There's confirmation out there that more supports are incoming, but the route to actually get supports is still clouded in mystery outside of the 1-80 chance from vaults, a single seasonal support and one-off buys. 

We're also in a vicious forum circle as usual with plenty complaints and no voice from the devs to allay those doubts.  The 2 weeks since supports arrived has been full of grumbling.  Any glint of hope that things may improve is very much hidden.

Orion

tanis3303 said:

Orion said:

I'm afraid they're going to roll out too many supports too quickly without the infrastructure to back it up.  Rolling out 10 more supports seems pretty dumb since most people still only have the original 3 and not enough red ISO to level any of them.

If they really want hundreds of supports like they say, it's going to be a ridiculous amount to luck to get that 1 OP support they will accidentally roll out.  I'm not looking forward to it.

But...does it even matter? You've been around at least as long as I have, our rosters don't need these things anyway. They provide a barely noticeable advantage strictly to a mode of play that players like us have no issue beating at the highest level available anyway...IMO they were a pointless waste of development time and resources when there are TONS of other problems and issues that are discussed daily around here, but thats thru the eyes of a nearly day one player. Maybe the new guys with one 3* and a decent support love them. But for me, I got my three free ones, used CP for the Dr Strange pack (I wanted his covers for the champ rewards, not so much for the supports) and equipped the guns on Gambit because he fires a lot of powers, and that was all I did with them. I'm actually thinking I'm gonna remove them because the 22 damage the attack tiles do when they appear isn't worth the time it takes for the little fist to float up the screen at the end of the turn...

TL:DR - Supports are a swing and a miss as far as I'm concerned, but they're also not aimed at players like me, so meh.

Once they're available for PvP then of course they'll matter.  And make no mistake, they'll be in PvP eventually.  The whales will spend like crazy to get an advantage over other whales.  And the rest of us will be at a huge disadvantage.

tiomono

Orion said:

tanis3303 said:

Orion said:

I'm afraid they're going to roll out too many supports too quickly without the infrastructure to back it up.  Rolling out 10 more supports seems pretty dumb since most people still only have the original 3 and not enough red ISO to level any of them.

If they really want hundreds of supports like they say, it's going to be a ridiculous amount to luck to get that 1 OP support they will accidentally roll out.  I'm not looking forward to it.

But...does it even matter? You've been around at least as long as I have, our rosters don't need these things anyway. They provide a barely noticeable advantage strictly to a mode of play that players like us have no issue beating at the highest level available anyway...IMO they were a pointless waste of development time and resources when there are TONS of other problems and issues that are discussed daily around here, but thats thru the eyes of a nearly day one player. Maybe the new guys with one 3* and a decent support love them. But for me, I got my three free ones, used CP for the Dr Strange pack (I wanted his covers for the champ rewards, not so much for the supports) and equipped the guns on Gambit because he fires a lot of powers, and that was all I did with them. I'm actually thinking I'm gonna remove them because the 22 damage the attack tiles do when they appear isn't worth the time it takes for the little fist to float up the screen at the end of the turn...

TL:DR - Supports are a swing and a miss as far as I'm concerned, but they're also not aimed at players like me, so meh.

Once they're available for PvP then of course they'll matter.  And make no mistake, they'll be in PvP eventually.  The whales will spend like crazy to get an advantage over other whales.  And the rest of us will be at a huge disadvantage.

But that's how the game already is. This changes nothing but giving another level of rng to vary gameplay. It may actually shake things up nicely for people that are not whales giving another level of strategy to a currently very stale meta.

PenniesForEveryone

Supports are dead for several compounding reasons....

1. They don't do much but slow you down.  They are PvE only and top end PvE fights are typically over in 3 moves or less.  The vast majority of supports just waste time by adding special tiles that won't ever do anything, or flashing banners for things that aren't needed, but just slow down the match.
2. They don't do enough damage to make a difference.  Even at the highest levels it's maybe a couple hundred damage, but when Thanos is killing every goon with less than 2k health in a single match anyway, what's the point?
3. They are too expensive to level.  Or more accurately - even at the max earn/spend rates the time to max a single support is measured in years, not weeks.  And as mentioned in the last point, they hardly do anything until leveled.
4. Their mechanics are all off.  I'll use Sharon as an example here because she is one of the almost useful supports.  At rank 3 she adds a small amount of match damage that might shave a couple seconds off your PvE clears, great.  But if you unlock a 4* or 5* support you get automatically upgraded and now you've added a couple banners that potentially make her slower than she was at 3*.  So if you spend the 2 months of red ISO it would take to get her to level 150 and then unlock a 4* or 5* version of her you've shot yourself in the foot.  And it's not like a 5* character where you have to actually roster and/or level it to really screw yourself, it automatically does it for you.
5. And of course there is no way to get 5* supports anywhere.  We've seen what, 1 token? And only in the HfH store.  How do we even get this high rank supports?
6. Because it takes SO LONG to generate enough red ISO to level a support, and they don't have much of an impact until higher level, there is no incentive to invest in a low rank support.  But since 5* supports are unobtainable at this point, there is absolutely no reason to be spending any red ISO right now.

Blindman13

PenniesForEveryone said:

Supports are dead for several compounding reasons....

1. They don't do much but slow you down.  They are PvE only and top end PvE fights are typically over in 3 moves or less.  The vast majority of supports just waste time by adding special tiles that won't ever do anything, or flashing banners for things that aren't needed, but just slow down the match.
2. They don't do enough damage to make a difference.  Even at the highest levels it's maybe a couple hundred damage, but when Thanos is killing every goon with less than 2k health in a single match anyway, what's the point?
3. They are too expensive to level.  Or more accurately - even at the max earn/spend rates the time to max a single support is measured in years, not weeks.  And as mentioned in the last point, they hardly do anything until leveled.
4. Their mechanics are all off.  I'll use Sharon as an example here because she is one of the almost useful supports.  At rank 3 she adds a small amount of match damage that might shave a couple seconds off your PvE clears, great.  But if you unlock a 4* or 5* support you get automatically upgraded and now you've added a couple banners that potentially make her slower than she was at 3*.  So if you spend the 2 months of red ISO it would take to get her to level 150 and then unlock a 4* or 5* version of her you've shot yourself in the foot.  And it's not like a 5* character where you have to actually roster and/or level it to really screw yourself, it automatically does it for you.
5. And of course there is no way to get 5* supports anywhere.  We've seen what, 1 token? And only in the HfH store.  How do we even get this high rank supports?
6. Because it takes SO LONG to generate enough red ISO to level a support, and they don't have much of an impact until higher level, there is no incentive to invest in a low rank support.  But since 5* supports are unobtainable at this point, there is absolutely no reason to be spending any red ISO right now.

So, because they are not currently a benefit to you and your play style, they are "dead"?
Several people have already pointed out how supports are currently more beneficial to the 3* and 3-4* transition rosters than high level 4*s and 5*s. The small amounts of extra damage and AP boosts mean a lot more when your highest level character is under 200.
Additionally, only a small percentage of the vast player base play at a level where seconds matter in their clear time. If a few banners flashing by are actually slowing you down enough to make a difference then don't equip the supports. Just ignore it as a feature that does not apply to you, like the 1* tier of characters. 

Personally, I already have my 4* Milano up to level 50, and I like jetting the random bonuses it provides.

veny

Maybe we could get gold support token for every 25 SHIELD levels and one legendary supp token for every 100 SHIELD levels (both retroactively and after achieving it in future), plus RISO per shield level,same as we are given regular ISO.
It seems like a fair deal for me and it could help veterans with supports. Otherwise they could wait years for getting something worth using along with their 5* champs.

Yoik

I have some Riso (6k) and some supports ( er 6?) but aside from that ive not actually paid any attention to this. I read the initial introduction but its not going to effect how I play the game or any of my toons for a considerable amount of time.

Ill sit it out and wait to see where its best to place stuff then maybe take a better look later. Its just something else to collect.

This isn't what I was hoping for when a new feature was going to be introduced.

Lets say that even if I had maxed out all the supports AND had them applied to all toons ( if that's even possible? ) and had Riso coming out of my ears... I STILL.... would have 150 odd toons sitting there week in week out, doing nothing and being added to monthly as more and more come out.

PenniesForEveryone

Blindman13 said:

PenniesForEveryone said:

Supports are dead for several compounding reasons....

1. They don't do much but slow you down.  They are PvE only and top end PvE fights are typically over in 3 moves or less.  The vast majority of supports just waste time by adding special tiles that won't ever do anything, or flashing banners for things that aren't needed, but just slow down the match.
2. They don't do enough damage to make a difference.  Even at the highest levels it's maybe a couple hundred damage, but when Thanos is killing every goon with less than 2k health in a single match anyway, what's the point?
3. They are too expensive to level.  Or more accurately - even at the max earn/spend rates the time to max a single support is measured in years, not weeks.  And as mentioned in the last point, they hardly do anything until leveled.
4. Their mechanics are all off.  I'll use Sharon as an example here because she is one of the almost useful supports.  At rank 3 she adds a small amount of match damage that might shave a couple seconds off your PvE clears, great.  But if you unlock a 4* or 5* support you get automatically upgraded and now you've added a couple banners that potentially make her slower than she was at 3*.  So if you spend the 2 months of red ISO it would take to get her to level 150 and then unlock a 4* or 5* version of her you've shot yourself in the foot.  And it's not like a 5* character where you have to actually roster and/or level it to really screw yourself, it automatically does it for you.
5. And of course there is no way to get 5* supports anywhere.  We've seen what, 1 token? And only in the HfH store.  How do we even get this high rank supports?
6. Because it takes SO LONG to generate enough red ISO to level a support, and they don't have much of an impact until higher level, there is no incentive to invest in a low rank support.  But since 5* supports are unobtainable at this point, there is absolutely no reason to be spending any red ISO right now.

So, because they are not currently a benefit to you and your play style, they are "dead"?
Several people have already pointed out how supports are currently more beneficial to the 3* and 3-4* transition rosters than high level 4*s and 5*s. The small amounts of extra damage and AP boosts mean a lot more when your highest level character is under 200.
Additionally, only a small percentage of the vast player base play at a level where seconds matter in their clear time. If a few banners flashing by are actually slowing you down enough to make a difference then don't equip the supports. Just ignore it as a feature that does not apply to you, like the 1* tier of characters. 

Personally, I already have my 4* Milano up to level 50, and I like jetting the random bonuses it provides.

So because they are currently a benefit to you and your play style they are a great addition to the game?

No, they are dead because of the 6 reasons that I outlined in my post.  Even a smaller roster still faces the dilemma of investing 6 months worth of red ISO into something that won't make a large impact on their game, and that they will immediately regret once they pull a better 5* support.

HoundofShadow

For those who are not seeing any benefits from it, just treat Supports as non-existent and for those who are benefitting from the effects, continue playing with it. 

I think MPQ should start to modify the difficulty of PvE for those in 5* land since many are downing opponents in 3 moves or so. Let's bring back roster-based scaling and more hazard tiles.

Shintok17

HoundofShadow said:

For those who are not seeing any benefits from it, just treat Supports as non-existent and for those who are benefitting from the effects, continue playing with it. 

I think MPQ should start to modify the difficulty of PvE for those in 5* land since many are downing opponents in 3 moves or so. Let's bring back roster-based scaling and more hazard tiles.

Hell no. The way it is now is way better than the hell I went through when I started playing in PVE. Now I choose the level of difficulty and love it.

Philly484

As many are saying, as veteran players are concerned, there is no current benefit to high roster players. While some supports provide usefulness to low level and new players, veterans players have no benefit from them especially from a PVP perspective, since they are currently not usable in PVP. Even in PVE what supports I have gathered so far, still no use with or without equipped. A new feature to a game shouldn't already require a rework at the starting gate. I currently hate that I bought the initial packs for them as they have yet to provide me with any useful advantage over the AI in PVE.

Blindman13

PenniesForEveryone said:

Blindman13 said:

PenniesForEveryone said:

Supports are dead for several compounding reasons....

1. They don't do much but slow you down.  They are PvE only and top end PvE fights are typically over in 3 moves or less.  The vast majority of supports just waste time by adding special tiles that won't ever do anything, or flashing banners for things that aren't needed, but just slow down the match.
2. They don't do enough damage to make a difference.  Even at the highest levels it's maybe a couple hundred damage, but when Thanos is killing every goon with less than 2k health in a single match anyway, what's the point?
3. They are too expensive to level.  Or more accurately - even at the max earn/spend rates the time to max a single support is measured in years, not weeks.  And as mentioned in the last point, they hardly do anything until leveled.
4. Their mechanics are all off.  I'll use Sharon as an example here because she is one of the almost useful supports.  At rank 3 she adds a small amount of match damage that might shave a couple seconds off your PvE clears, great.  But if you unlock a 4* or 5* support you get automatically upgraded and now you've added a couple banners that potentially make her slower than she was at 3*.  So if you spend the 2 months of red ISO it would take to get her to level 150 and then unlock a 4* or 5* version of her you've shot yourself in the foot.  And it's not like a 5* character where you have to actually roster and/or level it to really screw yourself, it automatically does it for you.
5. And of course there is no way to get 5* supports anywhere.  We've seen what, 1 token? And only in the HfH store.  How do we even get this high rank supports?
6. Because it takes SO LONG to generate enough red ISO to level a support, and they don't have much of an impact until higher level, there is no incentive to invest in a low rank support.  But since 5* supports are unobtainable at this point, there is absolutely no reason to be spending any red ISO right now.

So, because they are not currently a benefit to you and your play style, they are "dead"?
Several people have already pointed out how supports are currently more beneficial to the 3* and 3-4* transition rosters than high level 4*s and 5*s. The small amounts of extra damage and AP boosts mean a lot more when your highest level character is under 200.
Additionally, only a small percentage of the vast player base play at a level where seconds matter in their clear time. If a few banners flashing by are actually slowing you down enough to make a difference then don't equip the supports. Just ignore it as a feature that does not apply to you, like the 1* tier of characters. 

Personally, I already have my 4* Milano up to level 50, and I like jetting the random bonuses it provides.

So because they are currently a benefit to you and your play style they are a great addition to the game?

No, they are dead because of the 6 reasons that I outlined in my post.  Even a smaller roster still faces the dilemma of investing 6 months worth of red ISO into something that won't make a large impact on their game, and that they will immediately regret once they pull a better 5* support.

I never said they benefit me, or that they are a great addition to the game.  I actually don't get much benefit at all yet. That said, I see the potential for them to be of benefit to me in the future. I also see where they could benefit smaller rosters now. These two simple statements mean they are not "dead".

Phumade

The match damage buffs are actually the most valuable parts of the supports.

yes the actual damage is minor.  But  the buffs let players change who tanks what color.

This is actually the most important feature of the supports.

because it means.

Players can control which 5* tanks which colors.  (which you can accomplish by moving the damage buffs to different 5*)

Ultimately this means players can always keep a 1/2 DD or 1/2 thor on the board by changing who tanks what colors.  and then ultimately swapping a different support to enable a different effect.


Even if your only in 4* tier it means,  you can put a true healer in a gamora rocket combo and then have the true healer tank gamora or rockets color.


as players become more comfortable with how supports work.  I think it will completely change the variety of teams that people can realistically play. as soon as they realize the supports will ultimately determine which chars tank damage in any color.

PenniesForEveryone

Blindman13 said:

PenniesForEveryone said:

Blindman13 said:

PenniesForEveryone said:

Supports are dead for several compounding reasons....

1. They don't do much but slow you down.  They are PvE only and top end PvE fights are typically over in 3 moves or less.  The vast majority of supports just waste time by adding special tiles that won't ever do anything, or flashing banners for things that aren't needed, but just slow down the match.
2. They don't do enough damage to make a difference.  Even at the highest levels it's maybe a couple hundred damage, but when Thanos is killing every goon with less than 2k health in a single match anyway, what's the point?
3. They are too expensive to level.  Or more accurately - even at the max earn/spend rates the time to max a single support is measured in years, not weeks.  And as mentioned in the last point, they hardly do anything until leveled.
4. Their mechanics are all off.  I'll use Sharon as an example here because she is one of the almost useful supports.  At rank 3 she adds a small amount of match damage that might shave a couple seconds off your PvE clears, great.  But if you unlock a 4* or 5* support you get automatically upgraded and now you've added a couple banners that potentially make her slower than she was at 3*.  So if you spend the 2 months of red ISO it would take to get her to level 150 and then unlock a 4* or 5* version of her you've shot yourself in the foot.  And it's not like a 5* character where you have to actually roster and/or level it to really screw yourself, it automatically does it for you.
5. And of course there is no way to get 5* supports anywhere.  We've seen what, 1 token? And only in the HfH store.  How do we even get this high rank supports?
6. Because it takes SO LONG to generate enough red ISO to level a support, and they don't have much of an impact until higher level, there is no incentive to invest in a low rank support.  But since 5* supports are unobtainable at this point, there is absolutely no reason to be spending any red ISO right now.

So, because they are not currently a benefit to you and your play style, they are "dead"?
Several people have already pointed out how supports are currently more beneficial to the 3* and 3-4* transition rosters than high level 4*s and 5*s. The small amounts of extra damage and AP boosts mean a lot more when your highest level character is under 200.
Additionally, only a small percentage of the vast player base play at a level where seconds matter in their clear time. If a few banners flashing by are actually slowing you down enough to make a difference then don't equip the supports. Just ignore it as a feature that does not apply to you, like the 1* tier of characters. 

Personally, I already have my 4* Milano up to level 50, and I like jetting the random bonuses it provides.

So because they are currently a benefit to you and your play style they are a great addition to the game?

No, they are dead because of the 6 reasons that I outlined in my post.  Even a smaller roster still faces the dilemma of investing 6 months worth of red ISO into something that won't make a large impact on their game, and that they will immediately regret once they pull a better 5* support.

I never said they benefit me, or that they are a great addition to the game.  I actually don't get much benefit at all yet. That said, I see the potential for them to be of benefit to me in the future. I also see where they could benefit smaller rosters now. These two simple statements mean they are not "dead".

You aren't understanding my point.  They are dead because the vast majority of players really shouldn't be using them yet.  Unless you are part of the 1% that bought the HfH, and got a 5* support, but aren't a 5* player.....supports are useless to you.

Let me try to say it another way....

Consider the roster of an established 4* player (most forum members?), who has some 5* covers, but isn't yet a 5* transitioner or actually using any 5* characters.  This player is doing well at the 4* level, and able to hit progression and placement goals.  You can find hundreds of rosters like this if you look, and what you will find if you scroll through their roster is all the 5* characters sitting at <5 covers and level 255.  Why don't they invest their ISO into those 5* characters?  Well, every 5-10 levels is like a days worth of ISO, and leveling them won't really impact their game.  For these 4* rosters, those 5* characters are essentially dead.  They will at some point become useful, but right now they are dead. 

This is what supports are for 5* players, except instead of being able to max a 5* in 2 weeks, it sounds like it's going to take closer to 2 years.  And there is not yet some threshold that will open up supports and make them useful to a 5* roster - they will need a buff, or to be allowed in PvP, or more useful supports released.

Even for smaller rosters the analogy holds.  Yeah a 3* player can level his JJ to 300 to help a bit in PvE, but in the long run that ISO is going to be wasted because that JJ is unlikely to ever get fully covered and champed, so it still doesn't really make a lot of sense to be investing the ISO.  The key difference though is that 5* characters have scaling match damage which makes them far more viable to a new player, and the ISO earn rate is far greater than the red ISO earn rate.  If that level 300 JJ had 4* match damage, and it took you 6x as long to earn the ISO required to level her then you would be crazy to do it.......that's the case with supports.

PenniesForEveryone

Phumade said:

The match damage buffs are actually the most valuable parts of the supports.

yes the actual damage is minor.  But  the buffs let players change who tanks what color.

This is actually the most important feature of the supports.

because it means.

Players can control which 5* tanks which colors.  (which you can accomplish by moving the damage buffs to different 5*)

Ultimately this means players can always keep a 1/2 DD or 1/2 thor on the board by changing who tanks what colors.  and then ultimately swapping a different support to enable a different effect.


Even if your only in 4* tier it means,  you can put a true healer in a gamora rocket combo and then have the true healer tank gamora or rockets color.


as players become more comfortable with how supports work.  I think it will completely change the variety of teams that people can realistically play. as soon as they realize the supports will ultimately determine which chars tank damage in any color.

I must concede that this is the most valuable aspect of supports right now - especially for non-5* players that still have viable PvE combos that depend on strongest color mechanics.

Phumade

PenniesForEveryone said:

Phumade said:

The match damage buffs are actually the most valuable parts of the supports.

yes the actual damage is minor.  But  the buffs let players change who tanks what color.

This is actually the most important feature of the supports.

because it means.

Players can control which 5* tanks which colors.  (which you can accomplish by moving the damage buffs to different 5*)

Ultimately this means players can always keep a 1/2 DD or 1/2 thor on the board by changing who tanks what colors.  and then ultimately swapping a different support to enable a different effect.


Even if your only in 4* tier it means,  you can put a true healer in a gamora rocket combo and then have the true healer tank gamora or rockets color.


as players become more comfortable with how supports work.  I think it will completely change the variety of teams that people can realistically play. as soon as they realize the supports will ultimately determine which chars tank damage in any color.

I must concede that this is the most valuable aspect of supports right now - especially for non-5* players that still have viable PvE combos that depend on strongest color mechanics.

yeah another great example is putting different supports on carol so that the teams strongest colors aligns with how Carol's green will work.

This will be a big advantage to 4* players to ensure they get the damage bonus on carol green.

and at the 4* tier, even a 25 pt match damage bonus will change the strongest color order