Detailed Red Iso-8 Feedback - TLDR Summary - Need way more Red Iso-8 in the game

HoundofShadow

Support has only been out for about a week, and some players expect to be able to level up support to useable level. Useable for top players probably means level 200.  Let's not forget about beginners. Any new feature is not meant for top players only. The developers have to consider new players as well. If your play style is only to down everything as fast as possible, I understand why it's useless to you. Give it another 1- 3 month or so.

Spudgutter

GKar said:

The thread seems to be taking a negative tone.  I do want to make it clear I'm very excited about supports and how they can impact the game, just think the leveling and acquisition of them need to be dramatically increased.  I think many others will be excited as well if they could level up 5+ a week to 50 and start playing with them.

Not necessarily.  I have plenty of iso, but i sure am not buying that HfH.  I would be pretty upset to get a rank 5 support that that is practically useless for 2 of those ranks.  And example would be the hydra one.  One rank increases damage against avengers, and another has a chance to increase strike tiles when you down an opponent.  Outside of Sim, and a couple others, we rarely fight avengers.  They probably dont included Dark Avengers, and in 5* land against gambit, strike tiles last three or four turns.  That's just one of several examples. 

I don't want to be negative.  I am usually a supporter of their changes.  Check my history, i may have had the same issues other people had, but i still was able to find good things about  Vaulting and Wins based, and tried to defend their positive features when it was warranted.  Here, all i can do is voice how disappointed i am, but it is the same honest feedback i have been giving for almost 1600 days

Spudgutter

GKar said:

The thread seems to be taking a negative tone.  I do want to make it clear I'm very excited about supports and how they can impact the game, just think the leveling and acquisition of them need to be dramatically increased.  I think many others will be excited as well if they could level up 5+ a week to 50 and start playing with them.

Not necessarily.  I have plenty of iso, but i sure am not buying that HfH.  I would be pretty upset to get a rank 5 support that that is practically useless for 2 of those ranks.  An example would be the hydra one.  One rank increases damage against avengers, and another has a chance to increase strike tiles when you down an opponent.  Outside of Sim, and a couple others, we rarely fight avengers.  They probably dont included Dark Avengers, and in 5* land against gambit, strike tiles last three or four turns.  That's just one of several examples. 

I don't want to be negative.  I am usually a supporter of their changes.  Check my history, i may have had the same issues other people had, but i still was able to find good things about  Vaulting and Wins based, and tried to defend their positive features when it was warranted.  Here, all i can do is voice how disappointed i am, but it is the same honest feedback i have been giving for almost 1600 days

HoundofShadow

I think they said they would be implementing it in PvP as well. Plenty of Avengers for you. Wait for it.

JHawkInc

Dragon_Nexus said:

I was trying to figure out why this didn't feel as exciting as previous large updates and I've figured out the obvious answer. There's no reward. When we got championing and you champed a 3*, what was the first thing you got? A legendary token. Costs 7,500 ISO to champ a 3* and most of us had most of our 3*s at 166 already. How many of us saw our 4* rosters explode with 20-40 new 4* covers straight away as we champed our 3*s? Not to mention knowing out 3* covers weren't just 500 ISO any more.

And then later when shield levels showed up. Grandfathered ISO gave me something like 8 million ISO to play with. Immediately I could champ some 4*s i'd been wanting to use. Gave me a huge boost forwards. Felt good to gain EXP that trickled towards another ISO reward, too.

What has Supports given us out of the gate? Basically nothing. We've had *no* benefit from this system what-so-ever in the week since it launched. If they removed the whole thing I don't know how long it would take me to even notice.

That's kinda what I meant by saying they weren't necessary or visibly beneficial, but you've described it in a much better way, especially since it's directly relatable to other "upgrades" the game has received. Not only are they missing the "kickback" of Champs and Shield Ranks, but what we've been given is still weak enough that we can't even associate tangental rewards with them.


What if... let's start with 3* characters. Let's say one level, maybe halfway between Champ and Max (216, that's a 500 ISO level anyways), gives a Basic Support token. Upgrade champ rewards, grandfather people in, roll out a mess of Support tokens. Maybe even do it with 10 3*s at a time, so you can space them out (had they done some at launch, they'd still have some to update with Infinity War, and could do it again over the summer, maybe space them out so you do the last batch for Anniversary? something like that).

Then, you reward people for getting Supports to each 50 level benchmark. Keep the base system, you pull a Rank 3, you unlock all perks, keep the current level, and increase the max by 50. But give them character tokens for each 50 levels. Standard at 50, Elite at 100, Heroic at 150, something like 15 CP for 200, then an LT at 250? So there's a benefit to the rest of your roster for investing in Supports, so you have a reason to level up the ones you don't use (like how the Champion system encourages you to champ everyone even if you only use 6 of them in normal rotation).

So both systems slowly feed into each other. Then, around Anniversary, you start updating 4*s to drop in some Intermediate tokens, and 5*s to drop in some Master tokens, even if you don't add very many. Continually adding supports from time to time between now and Anniversary should give us a total number high enough that a smattering of tokens from updated 4*/5* Champ levels should give you a head start, but won't put you close enough to "being done", so you still have reasons to work for support tokens.

With enough Red-ISO (whether they increase current income or find a way to give enough tokens to generate a reasonable number of dupes) to level Supports at a decent rate, you could make Characters and Supports symbiotic, so Supports are less of a tacked-on secondary system.

Dragon_Nexus

A quicker way might be to add Red ISO and tokens to shield level ups and grandfather that way. Immediate support to vets and something to work towards for newer players.

jamesh

I haven't bought any of the H4H options, or spent any of the red iso I've collected.  With red iso as scarce as it is right now, I don't want to waste it on the "wrong" support, should I luck into a high rank support further down the line.  It looks like I'll only really be using two or three supports regularly, but I don't know which ones they'll be.

With the high (and automatic) sell back price for duplicate supports, it looked like support tokens would be the primary means to acquire red iso, but so far support tokens seem to be rare as hens teeth.  I would have expected the silver support tokens to be far more common, allowing players to fill out their roster with low level supports and as a way to gain iso.

I've got no idea how valuable the gold and purple support tokens are supposed to be though, since so far there hasn't been any way to earn or buy them apart from the one-off offers in the H4H store.

Ducky

I kinda foresaw red iso being too limited when it was introduced (do we not forget how painful leveling characters was before the reduction in leveling costs happened?). To try and help alleviate this problem, at least at the top end of the game, I recommended an iso converter from purple to red. I think this would at least help the top end of players get more red iso.

Admittedly, I'm not sure how to fix the issue at lower levels of the game other than increasing red iso output through rewards, though.

Maximus7481

I agree that we need to let time pass a little before completely canning the new feature. It's a good idea. Granted the initial implementation makes them pretty redundant for most players. I wouldn't want invest any riso into any of them at the moment as there's a good chance that before i could level it up all the way, it would be made redundant by getting a higher level copy.

jamesh

Maximus7481 said:

I agree that we need to let time pass a little before completely canning the new feature. It's a good idea. Granted the initial implementation makes them pretty redundant for most players. I wouldn't want invest any riso into any of them at the moment as there's a good chance that before i could level it up all the way, it would be made redundant by getting a higher level copy.

That shouldn't be a concern: if you get a higher rank duplicate, it will start at whatever level you brought your lower rank version to.

The bigger concern is that if your aim is to have a high level high rank support, you don't know which of the 14 supports (so far) you'll pull.

Team_Jacob

Ok, I bought both hfh packs to try out the new system. I got a 4* chimichanga.

I was kind of paralyzed from leveling it at all, but after reading this thread, I thought what the heck. I dumped most of my red iso, got it to 58, and stuck it to my5* Gambit. And then I finished Wakanda. At level 58, most things proc around 20% of the time, but really it added up with the fortifying, red and purple gen. I'll probably keep pumping rIso into it and see where it goes.

NMANOZ

Replace some of the daily random resupplies with some red Iso.

Punisher5784

When CP was introduced as a new currency to gain more 4/5*s, it was also a very slow rollout. It was only given out as the last progression reward in PvE and PvP, with a very small amount at upper placement. Eventually we got more CP at earlier PvE and PvP (575) progression about 6mos later. Red ISO will come but it will take time. I'm just going to be patient and hoard.

DAZ0273

Part of me feels like a trick may end up being being missed here. The Dev’s have in the past commented how hoarding is not a behaviour that is intended for MPQ but from day one it seems quite a lot of posters have already settled in to that mentality due to concerns about resource management over supports. Considering how easy quite a lot of posters are able to hoard, it feels like a lot of feedback is going to be lost.

It was pretty clear that the dev’s were hoping players on the forums would experiment with supports and provide vital feedback on them but that isn't happening as much as might have been anticipated.

One idea until Supports are established would have been to have a boosted supports feature added to PvE along the same lines as loaner characters for new releases so players can experience what Supports at higher levels can bring to gameplay. If it was limited to the loaner character(s) and pre-equipped it shouldn't have too much of an impact on scoring.

Looks like the red iso taps might have to flow a bit more freely for anything else more significant to happen.

Nick441234

I have one 4* support, which I am pumping RISO into. Other than that though, I'm leaving the rest. Makes more sense to only pump RISO into the better supports right now since its so hard to come by. 

babinro

Based on Gkar's insightful post it sounds like we can treat supports like we treat 4* max champed characters.

I'll let you know what I think in several years luck depending.

I suppose you could view that as 'fine' if we look at MPQ as an ongoing game with no ending but then its disappointing to roll out a big new feature that only the hardest of the hardcore vets are likely to appreciate.

Pongie

Support benefits should have been tied to multipliers. That way, it’s still relevant to all tiers. They just need to make sure it’s not ridiculous, topping out at 15% may be acceptable. Having raw values meant, it was never going to fit all tiers. Too low and top players don’t care, too high and it’s out of reach for low tiers. It’s why the favourable ones are all % chance of gaining ap.

Calnexin

I think you're starting with a false premise - that you need to fully level supports.  As with all things in this game, you can aim for it if you want, but it's not necessary.  Node difficulty has not increased, so anything you get from a support is extra power.  The only difference they're going to make is on competition for PvE placement, and since everyone has the same access to resources, the most diligent and/or strategic usage of supports will gain an upper hand.  There's no need to flood the resource to max everything, because then we're just right back to the old status quo of the haves and have-mores battling it out with the exact same teams (now with added support!)

Just let the things simmer for awhile, and maybe the strategy will actually be interesting.  Do you level up all your supports evenly to make the most out of the diversity, or focus all your resources on one to get the biggest bang for the buck on one set of abilities?  People will try different things, share strategies and opinions, and we'll all have a little more fun.

Blindman13

People have been asking them to put more ISO in the game for years, now they add a whole new type of ISO and people still complain there's not enough....  </sarcasm>

Seriously though, I'm happy to take the wait and see approach. I would be really surprised if they don't tweak the RedISO output in the coming months. Probably after they get done with whatever they have planned for Infinity War.

I am very encouraged by the fact that they rolled out such a large scale change, and we are not seeing any reports of supports causing the game to crash, or other crazy behavior. It's nice to see a change in the game mechanic, and what seems to be the overwhelming main complaint is that we can't level it up right away. 

Edit: All that said, the 3 ISO for the 5th clear is an oddly small amount.

Colognoisseur

Along the lines of having an iso converter as suggested by @Ducky I’d like to suggest a support token store where we can buy them with purple iso.