Vanilla creatures: Can we kick them out?

arNero

Sworn Guardian. Raptor Companion. Orazca Raptor. Orazca Frillback. Canal Monitor.

Admittedly these vanilla creatures comprise only a small number of cards out of the many, many cards played in MtgPQ. Problem is, nobody plays vanilla. Ever. Sure, it may be because I am Platinum and thus have an expansive card collection, but seriously, nobody plays vanilla.

In paper Magic, even vanilla barely is ever used except in limited, and the only reason why vanilla is used is mostly only to fill up space of 40 cards (20-25, if you don't count the lands). MtgPQ doesn't have limited environment, and you can only put 10 cards anyway and thus unlikely there is any room for fillers. So why bother having these vanillas? Especially when there are already too many cards that outclass them, before factoring in rares & mythics that are just way beyond their league.

So please, please, please, next time you import paper Magic into MtgPQ, can we just don't carry over vanillas?

PS: I'm thinking of maybe expanding this idea into fixing lousy common cards (not just because of common taxes), but for now I'll ask about this first.

Laeuftbeidir

.. Or a favorites / hide option? Could make deck building way more easy.. No need to see that kessig dire drive always on the first page

ertaii

I'm fine with the vanilla's, don't forget that when you start the game you have 15 cards and that's all. You really need those little creatures to progress in story mode, until you get better cards.

Mburn7

Vanillas are good for starting players, especially since they are almost all common or uncommon.  Also, there isn't much to be done about them since they exist that way in paper as well

wereotter

I've seen Core Prowler and Prowling Serpopard being played and they're vanilla creatures. Good vanilla creatures have larger bodies for their mana costs than their non-vanilla counterparts.

Additionally, many vanilla creatures are at lower rarity. I can recall when I first started to game in bronze playing a lot more vanilla creatures because that's the option I had. Keeping them in the game keeps the game more accessible to people just starting out, make it so they're not facing off against a lot of really powerful opponents from the get-go.

Laeuftbeidir said:

.. Or a favorites / hide option? Could make deck building way more easy.. No need to see that kessig dire drive always on the first page

This is definitely something I love to see. There are a bunch of cards I enjoy playing with I would like to be able to star for easy access in deck building, especially when you have to build event decks for every time an event rolls around.

James13

Laeuftbeidir said:

.. Or a favorites / hide option? Could make deck building way more easy.. No need to see that kessig dire drive always on the first page

Isn't that doable already with the built in filters?

FindingHeart8

Every set of the paper mtg has cards that have little purpose.

It's also reasonable to assume most players commenting on these threads are at least gold or higher (where you'd have a sufficient arsenal of cards to find the vanilla ones unnecessary), so we're not really speaking as a representative of the population that would be most affected by this (beginner, bronze, and silver level players).

Yeah I could see this being an argument of "Wouldn't it be great if..."  but I'd hate to see Octagon focus on this as a primary focus to devote their time to when there are bigger issues that need to be fixed and given a higher priority.

DumasAG

There are a number of people in my coalition (and I suspect in general) playing this game who are not at all familiar with MTG, they like puzzle quest games and this one seems interesting. If you had no simple/vanilla creatures, this game would have QUITE the learning curve for these first-timers to Magic. You don't want to run people off from your game just because it's too complex to start.

I think the more reasonable option, as was suggested above, is to have the option to filter out vanilla creatures in card search.

TheExaminer

Since I just started playing mtgpq, my most favorite monoblack control finisher is Soulstinger, which is vanilla with downside, lol. Even now, when I am in gold and have Dreamstealer, Apocalypse Demon and other sweet rare creatures, I prefer Soulstinger for being amazingly mana efficient for a common. Just like Tarmogoyf is one of the best midrange finishers in the paper magic.

Thuran

Vanilla creatures can be valuable if the type and rates are good. Brontodon is a great card, even if its just a 3/4 for 3. Watchwolf was great as a vanilla 3/3 for 2.

Vanilla stats are the basis for cards and evaluating them. A 2/2 flier for 3 simply trades 1 p/t for the flying ability, so they are not different from others, they just spend their budget in another way

That said, I do think we could use much better vanilla creatures in the game, and a more clearly defined baseline to evaluate them

Thuran

And ofc this pops up on scg today :
http://www.starcitygames.com/articles/36949_Vanilla-Never-Tasted-So-Good.html

FindingHeart8

Thuran said:

And ofc this pops up on scg today :
http://www.starcitygames.com/articles/36949_Vanilla-Never-Tasted-So-Good.html

the mtg purist in me scowls at this, what's the point of playing mtg if people can just cut and paste deck ideas that they were hand-fed (the equivalent of mtg plagiarism).  Strategy should be earned through self-generated creativity, strategy, and getting your butt-kicked a lot (kinda like an expanded version of chess).

my (admittedly strong) view doesn't apply to mtgpq tho, as a 10-card limit is a significant restriction to options and players cant just go out and buy all the cards from that list.

on topic: it's a nice vanilla general that will probably translate to a decent mtgpq card/

James13

Dropping commons would be a bad thing given how few cards there are otherwise.  And some joy in deckbuilding challenges as well as some (not so?) hidden common gems.

morgue427

sometimes the vanilla is what is needed especially in the newest sets where there is a bonus for having all of one subtype of creature, better a vanilla pie ( for example) than lose the bonus from having all 3 being pirates. keep them i say, and they can be filtered out when you search just click common/uncommon of so they dont show in the search. problem solved. lol

Brakkis

I run vanilla cards in Legacy events that call for certain creature types to be played because I don't have many non-vanilla cards in those types.

For example, I'm running Spectral Shepard in Terror because it's a cheap 4/4 Spirit. We can't all be running Rattlechains.

donvnny45

With the creature sub types being so important in the new sets, i agree that vanillas can be very useful even if for a guy like me who has played for the better part of 2 years now. The only dinosaurs i had for a good 2 weeks after Ixalan came out were vanillas.  

morgue427

that in a few cases the vanillas have a effect albeit at a high cost that in later sets makes it a heavy hitter. Like Serene steward

wereotter

morgue427 said:

that in a few cases the vanillas have a effect albeit at a high cost that in later sets makes it a heavy hitter. Like Serene steward

Serene Steward isn't a vanilla creature, though. It has an ability. Vanilla in this case would be something more like Expedition Envoy.

Even the previously mentioned Kessig Dire Swine isn't *techincally* vanilla since it has trample.

DumasAG

wereotter said:

morgue427 said:

that in a few cases the vanillas have a effect albeit at a high cost that in later sets makes it a heavy hitter. Like Serene steward

Serene Steward isn't a vanilla creature, though. It has an ability. Vanilla in this case would be something more like Expedition Envoy.

Even the previously mentioned Kessig Dire Swine isn't *techincally* vanilla since it has trample.

So that we're all using the correct terminology, a vanilla creature with one evergreen ability is generally considered "French Vanilla". I'm not sure why... I guess it's just a little less boring than normal vanilla?

ard021

DumasAG said:

So that we're all using the correct terminology, a vanilla creature with one evergreen ability is generally considered "French Vanilla". I'm not sure why... I guess it's just a little less boring than normal vanilla?

Basically.  French Vanilla in paper MtG is actually any creature with only keyworded abilities.  They don't have to be evergreen, and they can have more than one.  Gaea's Revenge and Sacred Cat would be considered French Vanilla.  There are actually a lot of French Vanilla creatures that show up on a fairly regular basis in play, since the abilities can potentially be very valuable.  Vanilla creatures either have no rules text, or have only flying.  Spectral Shepard, as Brakkis referred to above, is vanilla with flying.  Vanilla creatures mostly occur at common, and even then there aren't too many of them.

As you mentioned above, one of the things that vanilla creatures, which mostly occur at common, are good for is reducing the learning curve.  That's huge for new player retention. Having the game ramp up more slowly in complexity keeps it from overwhelming players early, which increases the chances they convert before they drop off.

Sirchombli

Might as well just get rid of commons altogether, right ? I mean who wants to play garbage when I got all these mythics ? Probably the people who don't have all these mythics. Don't forget where you came from. I do like the favorites/hide idea, though.