Pay to play - Are the rewards worth it?

jp1
jp1 Posts: 1,081 Chairperson of the Boards
in MPQ General Discussion
This is my first post, however I have been lurking for some time. I've been playing the game for 186 days at this point. I wonder how other's might feel about the things that frustrate me, and I also hope to give some constructive criticism to a game that I enjoy playing and would love to continue financially supporting. First, let me say that I will continue to subscribe to VIP as well as probably purchase SCL packs if they come about and I need them...so, this isn't an "I quit, because I spent money" post. I will continue to play daily and hopefully progress. I also want to say that I enjoy the game immensely and it is without a doubt my favorite way to kill some time. I have much praise to add in a different post, this one will probably sound like griping.

Disclaimer aside, I have a few questions, concerns, and comments I'd like to discuss.

First, I have spent an insane amount of money (In my opinion, these things are all relative and I know whales spend much more than I) on the game...for a mobile match 3 game. This was my choice, I'm an adult, I'm not whining. I would just like to understand why the devs are so punishing to people who support them financially. It really turns me off when I purchase a 10 pack or even a 40 pack and open 98% 2* covers. You want to keep the game fair, I understand that. But, these odds are just ludicrous. Make me happy when I drop my hard earned dollars if you want to keep receiving them. Cash players should at the very least get better draw rates than FTP players. I know that will leave a sour taste in some peoples mouths...but, this is the real world and we keep the lights on and the ads away.

Second, ISO is too expensive. Why so greedy? It quickly becomes taxing to look at all the millions of ISO you will need and realize it would cost $100 to 3/4 fully level a single 3*. Others have talked about this extensively, why won't the devs listen? I'll drop cash on ISO when it is a worthwhile investment and I'm sure others feel the same as well. It wouldn't hurt to reward more ISO to players at higher levels so they can keep their roster healthy as well. Just sayin'.

Last, I love the diversity of the 4* pool and I don't want you to quit adding new content. I've seen a common complaint about the game becoming watered down in that area and characters being hard to cover, and I agree...however, in my opinion the fix is not to stop adding content, why not give us an outlet to get 4* covers? Add a new section to DPD with harder matches that rewards a daily 4* maybe? Other than the current single match event that requires a mostly covered 4 to complete. Or every once in a while drop a LT as a bonus reward. 

Okay, so I know that is a lot of me just asking you to give us more, but why not? What have you got to lose? More people will pay for things I'm sure and the money would even out. 

I really do love the game though. I have plenty of positives to discuss elsewhere. I'll also be posting my roster as soon as I get it updated, so I can get some advice.

P.S. Why all the concern with keeping all the characters balanced? Thanos should not be an equal 1:1 competitor with Jubilee. IMHO, the game would be more fun with a more diverse power distribution. You can still add required nodes for lower powered characters so we have to roster them all. It also makes it that much more satisfying to roster that elite character. Especially if you don't have to worry about an inevitable nerf.

Still the best match 3 game out there by a mile, but these are things I think would improve the user experience from the perspective of a pay to play character.

Thanks for taking the time to read my admittedly nit picky first post. Thanks for continuing to bring new and cool features and characters to the game as well. 
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Comments

  • jp1
    jp1 Posts: 1,081 Chairperson of the Boards
    Certainly valid counterpoints. I’m planning to no longer purchase cover packs, however that is bad for everyone. A better alternative would be fixing it so paying customers still want to purchase.

    The power balance could be handled in creative ways I think without having Omega level mutants that feel weak. This is really just my own thought though...I can understand the real world issues with simply changing this up.

    Thanks for taking the time to post your take on the issues. I can appreciate we won’t all feel the same.
  • jredd
    jredd Posts: 1,387 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited April 2018
    imo, the only thing worth spending money on for the non-whale is vip (bought it twice, but then stopped). aside from that, i buy a bugle pittance each month to get bonus rewards. bonus rewards are worth your 3.00$ if you're a serious player but don't want to break the bank.
  • HoundofShadow
    HoundofShadow Posts: 8,004 Chairperson of the Boards
    First, you need to understand how probability works. Probability is not getting guaranteed two to three 4* for every 40x pack that you open.  It is also not getting guaranteed latest 5* for every 7 Latest Legend Tokens that you opened. Generally, it means that, over time, if you were to open tokens x number of times, you will see that the probability of getting 4* is ~1:12, where x is probably 10,000 times or more. Let's give you another example, if you were to flip a coin, the probability of getting a head or a tail is 1:2. If you were to flip it 10 times, do you think it will always be 5 head and 5 tails? if you were to get 10,000 people to flip a coin 10 times, will all 10,000 get the same results of 5H/5T? Is 1H/9T or 9H/1T a freak result?

    There are veteran players who track their pulls and the general consensus is that the probability of getting the displayed rate is pretty accurate. If you were to pull 10 4* out of a 40x pack, will you email customer service and ask them to exchange the additional 6-7 4* for 3* or 2* covers because it is more than the advertised rate of ~1:12? 

    They already have a few outlets for you to gain 4* covers:

    1) opening packs or tokens
    2) bonus heroes
    3) using CP to buy colours that are "opened"
    4) H4H (certain condition)
    5) special SCL deals
    6) Placement reward from SCL 6 and above for both PvE and PvP
    7) Progression reward from SCL 7 in PvP and PvE 
    8) covers from champed 3* rewards (certain characters)
    9) Vaults (savory/sweet/PvE specifics)

    4* or 5* characters are considered top tier. Does it make business sense to "give away" guaranteed 4* covers freely again to every player in 3* and above every day in DPD, given that any player who plays PvE SCL 7 is guaranteed one 4* cover? Should 4* covers be given freely to every player in 3* land and above or should 4* covers be won by the top players? Wouldn't giving 4* cover "freely" devalue the worth of 4*?


  • jredd
    jredd Posts: 1,387 Chairperson of the Boards
    the thing about this game is, if you're not pulling a hoard, most of the time your pulls will be underwhelming. even a 40 pack of heroics, you're going to be getting probably 20-30 2*. not exactly the best bang for your buck if that's what you're spending actual money on.
  • HoundofShadow
    HoundofShadow Posts: 8,004 Chairperson of the Boards
    I am aware that you are not asking to give 4* covers daily, but getting a 4* covers from a match in DPD is as good as giving it away unless they make the match so difficult that only 10% of the players can win that match to earned that 4* covers. 

    It looks like probability is the problem. Either you still don't understand how probability works or you think that the rate should be lowered.

    In your opinion, what do you think is a fair probability to get a 4* cover from 1 Heroic Token, 10x Pack and a 40x pack? The current rate is 1:14 and the rate for bonus hero is 1:20 for 1 pack and 1:12 for 10x pack and 40x pack.

    Or should the probability be lowered each time a player buy a Stark Salary? For example, each Stark Salary purchased will increase the probability of getting a 4* cover by 0.1 or 0.5 so the rate would be 1:11.5 or 1:11.9. It will not go any lower than 1:X, where x is a number the whales or big money spenders agree on. Would it be better?
  • jp1
    jp1 Posts: 1,081 Chairperson of the Boards
    Yes, it should be lowered each time you purchase stark salary. That only seems fair to me. Or even better stark salary could come with an extra LT. Above a certain level of play, whether it be days you’ve invested or money drop rates should increase dramatically for 3s and incrementally for 4s. 

    Simply put, these rewards are intangible and arbitrary from a devs perspective. It costs nothing to make your paying customer base feel some appreciation. They already award longevity with rare covers, why so little love for those opening their wallets? 

    It’s fair to say that the probability is an issue for me, in that I think it should scale depending on circumstances, be it total invested money or length of time played. These two star covers are much more valuable early in the game. 3s become the baseline fairly quickly but the game doesn’t adapt or take that into account.
  • HoundofShadow
    HoundofShadow Posts: 8,004 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited April 2018
    There are at least 4 group of customers that MPQ has to deal with: 

    1) players who are big spenders or make a few big purchases.

    2) players who are regularly making small purchases like VIP and some special deal once in a while.

    3) F2P who could be potential paying customers .

    4).players who make a few small purchases or a special deal once in a while.

    However, they have different viewpoints on what equality or fairness means. On one hand, we have group of players like you who think that drop rate should be better the more they spend because they are big spenders and they deserve better drop rates. 

    On the other hand, we have players (small spenders or F2P) who think that every players, regardless of spending amount in the game, should have an equal opportunity to gain the same cover at the same drop rate. If better drop rates means spending more money, it could alienate these group of players who will be displeased because you have to pay more to alter the drop rate. In other words, it further reinforces in their mind that MPQ is truly pay to win and 4* and 5* are hiding behind a paywall. The end result is that they would stop spending money on MPQ and possibly discourage their friends from playing MPQ.  

    Given this situation, what is an elegant way to satisfy both group of players while not compromising business goals and alienating either group of players?

  • Jrlrma
    Jrlrma Posts: 65 Match Maker
    How in the hell can you earn 78k iso in one day?
  • Bowgentle
    Bowgentle Posts: 7,926 Chairperson of the Boards
    Jrlrma said:
    How in the hell can you earn 78k iso in one day?
    By playing a lot for a long time or by spending a lot.
  • CenturyChild
    CenturyChild Posts: 28 Just Dropped In
    I don't think the probability should be altered at all. Now- this is coming from the perspective of someone who falls into the category of only spending around $2-$5 per month, not even investing in VIP (though I'm considering it, I fell below 500k iso today for the first time in a good while, i feel the iso drought coming).

    However, as someone who collected trading cards as a kid, I remember every once in a while there would be packs that you could get where the cards were random as standard, but you were guaranteed that one card from the pack of a certain tier of rarity.

    Could that possibly be implemented in some form or fashion to help incentivize and reward people who want to spend? Maybe at least two guaranteed 3*'s from every 40-pack on top of any others you might randomly pull? Or would you wind up with more that way than you would if the probability were changed? I'm no math whiz. 
  • Bowgentle
    Bowgentle Posts: 7,926 Chairperson of the Boards
    CenturyChild said:
    I don't think the probability should be altered at all. Now- this is coming from the perspective of someone who falls into the category of only spending around $2-$5 per month, not even investing in VIP (though I'm considering it, I fell below 500k iso today for the first time in a good while, i feel the iso drought coming).

    However, as someone who collected trading cards as a kid, I remember every once in a while there would be packs that you could get where the cards were random as standard, but you were guaranteed that one card from the pack of a certain tier of rarity.

    Could that possibly be implemented in some form or fashion to help incentivize and reward people who want to spend? Maybe at least two guaranteed 3*'s from every 40-pack on top of any others you might randomly pull? Or would you wind up with more that way than you would if the probability were changed? I'm no math whiz. 

    We had that in the beginning of the game.
    A 10 pack for a PVE or PVP event guaranteed at least one cover for the featured character.

    Has long been replaced, obviously they make more money with no guaranteed pulls.
  • CenturyChild
    CenturyChild Posts: 28 Just Dropped In
    Bowgentle said:

    We had that in the beginning of the game.
    A 10 pack for a PVE or PVP event guaranteed at least one cover for the featured character.

    Has long been replaced, obviously they make more money with no guaranteed pulls.
    Then it seems no changes are necessary. I don't think people who spend a bunch of money on the game should get better odds just because they spent the money. Overall your odds are going to be better already when you spend, because when you buy a 40 pack you get to open 40 more packs than someone who didn't buy that. That's the reward. 
  • Jrlrma
    Jrlrma Posts: 65 Match Maker
    Bowgentle said:
    Jrlrma said:
    How in the hell can you earn 78k iso in one day?
    By playing a lot for a long time or by spending a lot.
    The dude said you can earn that much in a day by “playing optimally” im tryn to figure exactly what that means. 
  • Heartbreaksoup
    Heartbreaksoup Posts: 356 Mover and Shaker
    That is interesting that they used to guarantee a cover once upon a time.  They probably figured that guaranteeing one in PVE progression worked better, I suppose.
  • jp1
    jp1 Posts: 1,081 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited April 2018
    I have a couple things here.

    First, I don’t believe anything in the game should only be available to paying customers. I like that if you choose to be free to play you can still enjoy the entire game. I don’t see how rewarding folks who spend money more generously would take away from their experience at all. If anything we would spend more and the F2P folks in our alliances would receive more CP.

    Second, I don’t receive any advantage other than time. While someone else may have an entire day to grind away, I do not. What I am paying for is the chance to keep the game enjoyable and make progress at an equivalent rate to that person who can grind away for many hours. They can, and often do, have just an impressive or more impressive roster than I, simply from having the time to clear every event 100 percent, play PVE at specific times, get placement rewards, etc. So there is still opportunity in place for these folks as well.

    What I’m really getting at with the money issue is this: 

    If you sell me a steak, give me a steak. Don’t take my money for a steak and say “well we might give you a hamburger instead”. If you have premium pricing (which is in place to support all those f2p folks you mentioned by the way) you need to offer premium content. 

    If if you want to give me mostly garbage, okay I’m fine with that too, lower the price. A 40 pack should not require the purchase of a stark salary if it will more often than not result in mostly 2* pulls. 

    Of of course the last option is to leave it as it is. I’m only one person after all and my money may not make much difference to them. It really depends on how much of the market someone like me represents. I am not a whale nor do I aspire to be one, so I guess I fall somewhere in the middle perhaps, I may spend more than your average paying customer though, simply because I have less time to grind and/or less patience. The game isn’t enjoyable to me at such a slow pace, I’m willing to circumvent that with dollars, just not when upwards of 90 percent of them are burned to ashes and I’m left feeling disappointment.

    I fail to see how rewarding a paying customer more value would alienate anyone. Again, we keep the lights on and subsidize the F2P folks so they can play the entire game without spending a dime if they like. Which is good for everyone.
  • Alfje17
    Alfje17 Posts: 3,818 Chairperson of the Boards
    Jrlrma said:
    Bowgentle said:
    Jrlrma said:
    How in the hell can you earn 78k iso in one day?
    By playing a lot for a long time or by spending a lot.
    The dude said you can earn that much in a day by “playing optimally” im tryn to figure exactly what that means. 

    To give you an idea how much ISO people earn a day:
    https://forums.d3go.com/discussion/70329/iso-poll-how-much-are-you-getting

    As a casual t100 player myself, I'm getting about 50K a day now, 78K is doable if you have the time/roster.

  • Daiches
    Daiches Posts: 1,252 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited April 2018
    jp1 said:
    I have a couple things here.

    First, I don’t believe anything in the game should only be available to paying customers. I like that if you choose to be free to play you can still enjoy the entire game. I don’t see how rewarding folks who spend money more generously would take away from their experience at all. If anything we would spend more and the F2P folks in our alliances would receive more CP.

    Second, I don’t receive any advantage other than time. While someone else may have an entire day to grind away, I do not. What I am paying for is the chance to keep the game enjoyable and make progress at an equivalent rate to that person who can grind away for many hours. They can, and often do, have just an impressive or more impressive roster than I, simply from having the time to clear every event 100 percent, play PVE at specific times, get placement rewards, etc. So there is still opportunity in place for these folks as well.

    What I’m really getting at with the money issue is this: 

    If you sell me a steak, give me a steak. Don’t take my money for a steak and say “well we might give you a hamburger instead”. If you have premium pricing (which is in place to support all those f2p folks you mentioned by the way) you need to offer premium content. 

    If if you want to give me mostly garbage, okay I’m fine with that too, lower the price. A 40 pack should not require the purchase of a stark salary if it will more often than not result in mostly 2* pulls. 

    Of of course the last option is to leave it as it is. I’m only one person after all and my money may not make much difference to them. It really depends on how much of the market someone like me represents. I am not a whale nor do I aspire to be one, so I guess I fall somewhere in the middle perhaps, I may spend more than your average paying customer though, simply because I have less time to grind and/or less patience. The game isn’t enjoyable to me at such a slow pace, I’m willing to circumvent that with dollars, just not when upwards of 90 percent of them are burned to ashes and I’m left feeling disappointment.

    I fail to see how rewarding a paying customer more value would alienate anyone. Again, we keep the lights on and subsidize the F2P folks so they can play the entire game without spending a dime if they like. Which is good for everyone.
    A 40 pack costs around half a Stark Purchase. That Stark purchase done correctly is worth 140 CP. Spending the HP on 2 40-pack crapshoots nets you another 2 guaranteed LTs and some nummer of CP Champ rewards. All that adds to your hoard towards 300 LT-equivalent pulls to move into 5star land.
    tl;Dr: HP and packs you buy with them are extra's you get when purchasing CP for your hoard/5stars. It isnt the main thing you are purchasing.
  • Srheer0
    Srheer0 Posts: 510 Critical Contributor
    I'm personally not happy with how the odds are displayed and not displayed. Maybe it's because I went to school in England and used %'s more than ratios, but why do the odds only appear on 5* rates, 4* rates and sometimes 3* rates? Why not state the ~4:5 chance of getting a 2* instead of making us work it out?  

    Daily 4* sounds like a good idea.  

    Also I have pulled 10 or 40 packs once or twice, both times have left me feeling cheated.

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