Angrath's third ability and tokens.

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Bil
Bil Posts: 831 Critical Contributor
edited April 2018 in MtGPQ Bugs & Technical Issues
   I have played angrath while his third ability was still lvl 3 and i noticed it also triggers on tokens ... Once for each reinforcment actually.
   In other words, it deals 60 damage if you kill a 10/10 stack of thopters.
 
 The lvl 3 wording is "when a creature goes to the graveyard "... But the lvl 4 is "when a card goes to the graveyard".
   
   As tokens are not really considered as a card, does anyone know if the 3rd ability still behaves the same when it's maxed out?

Thanks!
  
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  • Bullvinne
    Bullvinne Posts: 77 Match Maker
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    It might now @Bil, the wording of the ability changes and therefore one can expect its functionality changes as well.
  • ZW2007-
    ZW2007- Posts: 812 Critical Contributor
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    Yes, it will still trigger for each reinforcement of a creature token at level 4.
  • DumasAG
    DumasAG Posts: 719 Critical Contributor
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    ZW2007- said:
    Yes, it will still trigger for each reinforcement of a creature token at level 4.
    I did not know this was a thing with Angrath. That's a lot of damage to take for a stack of tokens... And it definitely triggers for each reinforcement? Cause I'm gonna start jamming black wraths in my Angrath deck...
  • Mburn7
    Mburn7 Posts: 3,427 Chairperson of the Boards
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    This is obviously a bug.  Tokens never hit the graveyard (they are exiled) by the rules, however there seems to be a bug where they don't (the same thing happens with Profane Procession when it flips).

    @Brigby @Oktagon_Daiane please inform the devs about this so it can be fixed, tokens should not be in the graveyard or go there at any time (just like they cannot go to your hand)
  • DumasAG
    DumasAG Posts: 719 Critical Contributor
    edited April 2018
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    Mburn7 said:
    This is obviously a bug.  Tokens never hit the graveyard (they are exiled) by the rules, however there seems to be a bug where they don't (the same thing happens with Profane Procession when it flips).

    @Brigby @Oktagon_Daiane please inform the devs about this so it can be fixed, tokens should not be in the graveyard or go there at any time (just like they cannot go to your hand)
    Is this accurate? A token goes to graveyard, but is exiled instead of entering. If the wording of the ability is "goes to graveyard" it SHOULD proc. As far as I remember, all mechanics in this game which care about a creature dying do trigger on token-death, which would lead me to believe that tokens do go to the graveyard, but are exiled instead of entering. This would align with paper MTG, FWIW.
  • Bil
    Bil Posts: 831 Critical Contributor
    edited April 2018
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    Mburn7 said:
    This is obviously a bug.  Tokens never hit the graveyard (they are exiled) by the rules.
       That's what i thought before i noticed the bug.
    As the lvl 3 wording is confusing i wondered if the effect was also applied when text says "card".   Considering it still applies it's obviously a bug and a nasty one ... Its heavily punishing against any token deck and i guess it also works with support tokens ...
       
  • DumasAG
    DumasAG Posts: 719 Critical Contributor
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    ZW2007- said:
    Mburn7 said:
    This is obviously a bug.  Tokens never hit the graveyard (they are exiled) by the rules, however there seems to be a bug where they don't (the same thing happens with Profane Procession when it flips).

    @Brigby @Oktagon_Daiane please inform the devs about this so it can be fixed, tokens should not be in the graveyard or go there at any time (just like they cannot go to your hand)
    That is 100% not true. Tokens always hit the graveyard but since they are not a card, they cease to exist once they go there.
    This is exactly what I was thinking. If there's a bug, I'd think it's counting each reinforcement as a separate trigger.
  • ZW2007-
    ZW2007- Posts: 812 Critical Contributor
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    In this case they are counting each reinforcement as if it were a separate creature, which in paper it would be. The difference being one single target kill spell wouldn't kill all of a players tokens in paper. In this case, I think it is okay for one planeswalker to have a strong advantage against token creature strategies.
  • andrewvanmarle
    andrewvanmarle Posts: 976 Critical Contributor
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    ZW2007- said:
    In this case they are counting each reinforcement as if it were a separate creature, which in paper it would be. The difference being one single target kill spell wouldn't kill all of a players tokens in paper. In this case, I think it is okay for one planeswalker to have a strong advantage against token creature strategies.
    This is the important point I think, counting reinforcements shouldn't happen 
  • Bil
    Bil Posts: 831 Critical Contributor
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    It should work with creature reinforcements as each reinforcment enters the graveyard as a different card ... But if it works for token reinforcments its way more powerful than expected ... Probably too much.
  • madwren
    madwren Posts: 2,233 Chairperson of the Boards
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    I don't see why it's too much. It's added value when you're facing people playing those ridiculous "Zendikar's Roil is bugged so I'm going to run it and profit" decks. =)

    Seriously, though, I don't feel a single planeswalker having an ability that severely punishes token decks is anything to be overly concerned about. 

  • ZW2007-
    ZW2007- Posts: 812 Critical Contributor
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    I agree that it isn't a problem. There are few strong token strategies and Angrath is a nice counter to them, whether intentional or not. Let us not forget that the AI will probably never use it's power against us anyway.
  • Mburn7
    Mburn7 Posts: 3,427 Chairperson of the Boards
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    ZW2007- said:
    Mburn7 said:
    This is obviously a bug.  Tokens never hit the graveyard (they are exiled) by the rules, however there seems to be a bug where they don't (the same thing happens with Profane Procession when it flips).
    That is 100% not true. Tokens always hit the graveyard but since they are not a card, they cease to exist once they go there.
    I always assumed that they cease to exist before hitting the graveyard, not after.  If I'm wrong I apologize. 
    But tokens are still very buggy anyway (as I said, profane processions flip side will return tokens), and this is certainly a bug.
  • Brigby
    Brigby ADMINISTRATORS Posts: 7,757 Site Admin
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    *Moving to Bugs & Technical Issues for greater developer visibility
  • Matthew
    Matthew Posts: 605 Critical Contributor
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    ZW2007- said:

    That is 100% not true. Tokens always hit the graveyard but since they are not a card, they cease to exist once they go there.
    This isn't entirely true either. Tomb of the Dusk Rose (Profane Procession's flipped side) will bring back Exiled tokens. I had this happen dozens of times on the Elenda fight on the first iteration of Race to Orazca.

  • Kinesia
    Kinesia Posts: 1,621 Chairperson of the Boards
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    Journey to Eternity brings back tokens too which it probably shouldn't!
  • Snappyturtle
    Snappyturtle Posts: 133 Tile Toppler
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    I destroyed a Fabricate deck with Marionette Master at lvl 2 of his 3rd ability. It was only half way through that I realized what was going on. Those support servos shouldn't count. But then again, Treasures...a balance should be thought of for this.
  • DumasAG
    DumasAG Posts: 719 Critical Contributor
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    Snappyturtle said:
    I destroyed a Fabricate deck with Marionette Master at lvl 2 of his 3rd ability. It was only half way through that I realized what was going on. Those support servos shouldn't count. But then again, Treasures...a balance should be thought of for this.
    Do multiple shields on a support count as well? Like, if someone played a mirror pool and then you hit it with demolish, would they take the damage 10 times?
  • Bil
    Bil Posts: 831 Critical Contributor
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    DumasAG said:
    Snappyturtle said:
    I destroyed a Fabricate deck with Marionette Master at lvl 2 of his 3rd ability. It was only half way through that I realized what was going on. Those support servos shouldn't count. But then again, Treasures...a balance should be thought of for this.
    Do multiple shields on a support count as well? Like, if someone played a mirror pool and then you hit it with demolish, would they take the damage 10 times?
    No, it just triggers for each iteration of the support or creature. A 10 shield support is considered as a single support, and so are treasures or servos.

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