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  • bk1234
    bk1234 Posts: 2,924 Chairperson of the Boards
    Rhasget said:
    How much time besides the actual playing time do you spend on the game in the top coalitions?

    I'm in a semi-casual one, playing everything, every day but mostly with the same decks. So my time spent is pretty much the time it takes to finish my matches. Some deck building but not much when I find my comfortable selection where I can place top with the right luck or, as most times, somewhere between spot 25-100.

    And then some small chat in out discord when something new comes up but not any long discussions.
    I am in chats for all 17 of ThePower9 teams and I can tell you that the top 50 coalitions put a lot more work into the game than the top 10s. Generally by the time you get to top 10 level, you understand the game well enough that it's just second nature. I scored 1064 in this event with a freeze loss on 4.1 (my fault for jumping the gun and checking objectives during an AI cascade) -- I didn't put anymore work into it than I do on other events, just referred to the event sheet we put together to know what was coming and build accordingly. 

    However, I spent HOURS working one-on-one with players from many of the lower coalitions in my alliance, walking them through how levels work and what would and would not work with their decks.  -- and saw players from all 9 of our top 25 coalitions doing the same. (It's really amazing to see players beat top levels with small collections -- and even more so to see how committed our top players are to making that happen for their teammates and alliance-mates). 

    A lot more deckbuilding goes on in Top 10 teams the first few times an event is run, but then, like you, we just settle into our decks and events -- and the fun stuff comes from building non-event decks that do cool things. 
  • Gunmix25
    Gunmix25 Posts: 1,442 Chairperson of the Boards
    Nalthazar said:
    After reading a number of the posts in this thread, I thought it would be good for me to post something for all of you who are feeling let down by not "having access" to rewards that are currently only available to players in the top 10 coalitions. I am a member of MTGGOLDFISH, which is currently in the top 10. When I joined, they line family. We worked hard as a group to become a top 5 coalition consistently and catapult ourselves into the top 10 list. Honestly, when it comes to "applying" for a spot, we have never really had an "application" system, and if you look at groups like the power 9, there are plenty of spaces available for individuals and groups to play this game at a top 10 level. Many of the top coalitions are actually composed of many subsidiary coalitions where players swap around based on what they can contribute to events given their available time and what they are likely to produce points-wise. In the year plus that I have been with MTGGOLDFISH we have introduced many new members to our community and even absorbed other groups of people who were looking for more competitive opportunities. As a result of this, our family has grown. I know this to be true in other top 10 coalitions too as many of us are in contact with each other and are friends too. The coalition system in this game has brought hundreds of people together who love this game and want to compete for top placement and top rewards. This game having rewards for coalitions is one of the things that drives us as a group to succeed.

    If you want to start earning rewards for being in a top 10 coalition, here are my suggestions for you:

    1.) Work hard like we did to recruit a group of 20 players who will play in each event. You can do this by recruiting on these very forums! You will honestly want to have more than 20 so that you can provide some wiggle room for your players so the game stays a game and does not become a second job. We earned our spot, and every week we all earn our places by playing this game and communicating with each other. You can do it too. If you don't want to join 'em, beat them.

    2.) Join a top 10 group either by yourself or with a group of your buddies. Many groups in the top 10 are consistently looking for new players to join their ranks. It honestly doesn't really matter what tier you are in. I joined GOLDFISH while I was in Silver and I know many of our players who joined in Bronze and have had their collections expand as a part of being in our group. 

    To conclude this, if you are a player or a group of players lost by the wayside, and you are looking for a way to become competitively relevant in this game, just let a player in one of the top groups know and they will likely direct you to a path to help you succeed. Some people in the top 10 are nicer and some are less kind, so if you fail at first, try another group. You may not see it yet, but there is a community here. At the very worst, you can contact me, and as long as I don't get some absurd number of responses to this, I can try to help find you a home in a top group either as a developing player or as a player who is looking to jump right into the fray.

    While I commend you on your well thought out post. It still has no bearing on what I was pointing out. The easiest way to say this is D3/Oktagon set up a reward in much the same fashion of setting up say... the superbowl.... but the highschool teams and colleges have a shot at it too. Top 10/or/12 being the NFL. While one player simply states that my coalition and others are simply too lazy to meet the demands of the event... Bken was spot on about the fact that we do work hard to meet those scores... but we also know they're all but almost unattainable despite us trying our best. If it was so easy as many top ten players have tried to point out in this discussion ... the coalition scores in events would be fluctuating far more, but they don't and the evidence supports that fact as well. The posts in here about rewarding indivual effort more and have coalition scores be secondary is an excellent idea. Don't get me wrong, the top ten coalitions have done a fantastic job in what they do. The fault was never them, but in the devs in their decision to set up a reward that has been all but decided from the get go. If they want to make such events for the long term. Then i  suggest that they make events locked to the top 20, top 21 to 40, top 41 to 60 and so on. Still rewarding the top ten. That kind of an event would be intense and exciting. Not feeling like a highschool football team about to face the NFL. 
  • bk1234
    bk1234 Posts: 2,924 Chairperson of the Boards
    Nalthazar said:
    After reading a number of the posts in this thread, I thought it would be good for me to post something for all of you who are feeling let down by not "having access" to rewards that are currently only available to players in the top 10 coalitions. I am a member of MTGGOLDFISH, which is currently in the top 10. When I joined, they were a fringe group outside the top 10 composed a a close-knit group of players that are almost like an online family. We worked hard as a group to become a top 5 coalition consistently and catapult ourselves into the top 10 list. Honestly, when it comes to "applying" for a spot, we have never really had an "application" system, and if you look at groups like the power 9, there are plenty of spaces available for individuals and groups to play this game at a top 10 level. Many of the top coalitions are actually composed of many subsidiary coalitions where players swap around based on what they can contribute to events given their available time and what they are likely to produce points-wise. In the year plus that I have been with MTGGOLDFISH we have introduced many new members to our community and even absorbed other groups of people who were looking for more competitive opportunities. As a result of this, our family has grown. I know this to be true in other top 10 coalitions too as many of us are in contact with each other and are friends too. The coalition system in this game has brought hundreds of people together who love this game and want to compete for top placement and top rewards. This game having rewards for coalitions is one of the things that drives us as a group to succeed.

    If you want to start earning rewards for being in a top 10 coalition, here are my suggestions for you:

    1.) Work hard like we did to recruit a group of 20 players who will play in each event. You can do this by recruiting on these very forums! You will honestly want to have more than 20 so that you can provide some wiggle room for your players so the game stays a game and does not become a second job. We earned our spot, and every week we all earn our places by playing this game and communicating with each other. You can do it too. If you don't want to join 'em, beat them.

    2.) Join a top 10 group either by yourself or with a group of your buddies. Many groups in the top 10 are consistently looking for new players to join their ranks. It honestly doesn't really matter what tier you are in. I joined GOLDFISH while I was in Silver and I know many of our players who joined in Bronze and have had their collections expand as a part of being in our group. 

    To conclude this, if you are a player or a group of players lost by the wayside, and you are looking for a way to become competitively relevant in this game, just let a player in one of the top groups know and they will likely direct you to a path to help you succeed. Some people in the top 10 are nicer and some are less kind, so if you fail at first, try another group. You may not see it yet, but there is a community here. At the very worst, you can contact me, and as long as I don't get some absurd number of responses to this, I can try to help find you a home in a top group either as a developing player or as a player who is looking to jump right into the fray.
    I don’t think the point is how to get into a top 10 coalition. I think the point is there are hundreds, maybe even thousands of players working just as hard as the top 10 players and not being rewarded the same — at the end of the day, there are only 200 spots on the top 10 teams — and way more than 200 people to fill them. Why should those people not get the same reward for doing the same amount of work? 
  • Laeuftbeidir
    Laeuftbeidir Posts: 1,841 Chairperson of the Boards
    .. Because that's how competition works? You don't hand out prices to those who you thought have put more effort into it - you hand them out based on results. And results in team sports are mostly achieved by organization.
    But effort helps people to step up. The system is open - if you want those prices, there is a way, and it's not by constant nagging and promoting an us or them mentality. That's something nobody here really needs.

    You don't like the fact that the top ten teams got a way better then average price? Then complain about the reward structure and don't actively try to tinikitty off people.

    On the other hand - the reward is actually somehow too good in current times. A guaranteed rare! That price has been fair IMO. Make the card at least non - exclusive, so people can get it from boosters as well.
  • Kinesia
    Kinesia Posts: 1,621 Chairperson of the Boards
    Laeuftbeidir said:
    .. Because that's how competition works? You don't hand out prices to those who you thought have put more effort into it - you hand them out based on results. And results in team sports are mostly achieved by organization.
    But effort helps people to step up. The system is open - if you want those prices, there is a way, and it's not by constant nagging and promoting an us or them mentality. That's something nobody here really needs.

    You don't like the fact that the top ten teams got a way better then average price? Then complain about the reward structure and don't actively try to tinikitty off people.

    On the other hand - the reward is actually somehow too good in current times. A guaranteed rare! That price has been fair IMO. Make the card at least non - exclusive, so people can get it from boosters as well.

    No. That's not what I dislike. In my real life I've seen over and over people getting poisonous from being competitive. But I've also seen people thrive and soar and become nicer and better from _personal_ growth and accomplishment.

    From the outside, from the _results_ in competitions these can look like the same people, the same things, but it's the attitudes inside different peoples heads that matter.

    There isn't a reason to put coalition success above personal success except that that is the way it's been done for ages and it follows the real world sports model (which also shows the same poisonous elements).

    If you encourage personal development then the coalitions _still_ thrive but many other people do to and it actually gives _more_ good people for the coalitions to pick up, already developed.

    But if you focus on the coalitions ahead of the personal rewards then you encourage some and discourage others _despite_ their never being a reason to do so.


    1) Making personal rewards for PvE that can be practised and built up to over time helps the _coalitions_ longterm by creating new motivated players.

    2) Making coalition rewards for PvE has a negative psychological effect on the lower level players and while a _few_ might step up and become competitive most will NOT.

    The thing is that the coalitions do not lose out in option 1 but in option 2 they actually _do_ in the long term, in the short term they get the reward but in the longterm they don't have enough replacement players that they need because many people have been discouraged or driven away.

    There is _zero_ downside to option 1. But option 2 automatically hurts many people's perceptions of the game _immediately_ and that hurts the game itself longterm and therefore the coalitions too.


    "It's competition!" is not a good defense, it takes competition as an automatically good thing which it absolutely is not.

    There's a very good reason most primary schools teach kids that cooperation is more important than competition. They have a bit of competition too but it _always_ tells the kids it's about doing their OWN best, not beating anyone. But this type of team competition, this is just about beating someone, it's not about personal best. The structure is broken and fails primary school level psychology.

    (And this _isn't_ about participation rewards at all, this is about some people earning the reward after 6 months of honing their decks every week. That is WAY beyond participation and much more work than those who win it quick and easy do. Long term effort deserves rewardss far more in these kinds of things.)
  • Laeuftbeidir
    Laeuftbeidir Posts: 1,841 Chairperson of the Boards
    That's why we look actively for new players, help them regarding their strategies, answer questions, show them how to compete, etc. And not just us, all of the top coalition groups. The top team that earns the best rewards is their motivation to get better. The big nerf in top rewards was the thing that actually did hurt us a lot, since it took away one of the key reasons why newer players wanted to join us. You can't imagine from the outside how motivating this reward was particulary for the mid-range players, resulting in a totally different player constellation for the next run - it's always important to be able to see things from a different angle.

    Still, my point remains valid : don't take something like this reward to attack other players. We were not responsive at all, and the op didn't even try to establish a productive discussion. I'd rather prefer having the guaranteed rares back, tbh.
  • Gunmix25
    Gunmix25 Posts: 1,442 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited March 2018
    Laeuftbeidir said:

    Still, my point remains valid : don't take something like this reward to attack other players. We were not responsive at all, and the op didn't even try to establish a productive discussion. I'd rather prefer having the guaranteed rares back, tbh.
    I wasn't setting out initially to create a discussion and more just a point to the devs. A few people in this thread had understood my point right from the get go. My post was and still isn't an attack on other players, especially the top ten. The focus f was on the devs decision about how that reward system was laid out. It has amazed me how many posters have blatantly chosen to overlook the fact that I have repeatedly congratulated and commended the great players in those coalitions. They are victims of the devs decision as much as the 14th, 19th, 49th coalition or the 35th or 63rd and so on.  I never attacked them, although many top players have insinuated that I have, there is simply no evidence nor intent. I have repeatedly attempted to steer discussion in the direction of my OP. But what keeps coming up are posts that competely missed the point, despite having been corrected multiple times, and are fixated on defending their role or position of top spot and that lower ranking coalitions can either bust those in their coalition so they can find better people to compete or jump ship. Not sure how either option is healthy. Anyways, do hope the devs read and decide to rethink the approach. Imho @Kinesia came up with a great idea that I wholeheartedly embrace amd hope will come to light. 
  • span_argoman
    span_argoman Posts: 751 Critical Contributor
    I think we have come to a point where people are disagreeing whether the rewards should be given out for performance or for effort.  Yes there should be rewards for both, and that's why we have Progression rewards and Ranking rewards.

    I believe many of the posters in this topic will agree that through this game, we have managed to find a sense of community with the groups we have decided to associate with. For some, they find it in independent coalitions. For some, they only found that when moving into a mega coalitions. Some find it while interacting with the active MtGPQ community on these forums or in the Slack and/or Discord chat(s).

    I think some people have to understand that there are those of us who have already found a group of people we are happy to share the MtGPQ experience with. Maybe you have found it with one of the top groups and you have the privilege to tell people to git moving or stop complaining. Good for you.

    You think that okay, you want the rewards then you have to come join us or form your own group that is strong enough to beat us. Nothing wrong with thinking that when you're at the top. What I hope to do though is to help such people understand why other people might feel conflicted about following such advice.

    MtGPQ is and has always been a game for recreational purposes. It is not a professional sport. Neither is it a spectator e-sports where there is big money going to the winners. Some people might quite fancy the idea of the game heading in such a direction. Hearthstone as the top electronic card game has a top prizes in the 6-digits for their biggest tournaments. Why not MtGPQ?

    We look to those as examples of how competitive rewards should be, but these are designed with the intent of bringing competition to the forefront. And as @Kinesia has pointed out, there is such a thing as being overly-competitive and there are consequences to that.

    It's been repeatedly said in these forums and elsewhere that many of us have stayed on with this game not only due to its unique mix of MTG and puzzle mechanics but also because of the community. Not many mobile games can claim to have survived for 2+ years. Much less one that has survived a change of developers.

    Now, while there are players who have not yet found a group settle into, and these are the ones we all earnestly try to direct towards active groups which can accommodate them, there are also players who have settled into groups who on a whole aren't as strong as the ones top coalition players are accustomed to. Groups which may contain players who nonetheless still enjoy the game but cannot or prefer not to engage in the game at the level required for top level competition, or which do not have enough players performing at the top level and aren't structured in ways to form a full top-tier team.

    I just hope that people can understand that the same advice to join one of the bigger, more competitive groups can sound like great advice to the former group but also sound like a suggestion of betrayal to the latter. Especially when this is about a recreational game and not a professional sport where one's livelihood is on the line. We sometimes do things we wish we didn't have to for our career, but what taste does it leave in one's mouth when they have to do it for something that's supposed to be for fun too?

    I'm not going to help this topic transform into an us versus them battleground. But I found it grating that some replies essentially said to just discard the existing ties one had or to reorganise their group to be in the spitting image of the top coalitions. Different people, different strokes, y'know?

    That said, my personal stance is still that I don't see a big issue giving a single exclusive Mythic to the top 10 coalitions of each BoFT event. Especially since the developers have clarified that it will eventually be available to the rest of the player base through packs after the exclusivity period. And it's not a must-have card to be competitive.

    Laeuftbeidir said:
    That's why we look actively for new players, help them regarding their strategies, answer questions, show them how to compete, etc. And not just us, all of the top coalition groups. The top team that earns the best rewards is their motivation to get better. The big nerf in top rewards was the thing that actually did hurt us a lot, since it took away one of the key reasons why newer players wanted to join us. You can't imagine from the outside how motivating this reward was particulary for the mid-range players, resulting in a totally different player constellation for the next run - it's always important to be able to see things from a different angle.

    Still, my point remains valid : don't take something like this reward to attack other players. We were not responsive at all, and the op didn't even try to establish a productive discussion. I'd rather prefer having the guaranteed rares back, tbh.
    Didn't the OP repeatedly state that his issue was with the developer's policy rather than the players? I don't see a need to keep coming back to that accusation, especially if we are truly trying to steer the topic towards being a productive discussion.

    Anyway in response to your other points, yes top-heavy rewards do incentivise players to join groups tuned to maximise their competitive capability. But I think newer players would have been keen to join any one of the active groups anyway if the initial "on-boarding stage" of this game wasn't as unfriendly to new players as it currently is.

    The story mode Crystals are nowhere near enough for a new player to build a decent collection to be able to properly enjoy the deckbuilding aspect of this game. There is no achievements list or checkpoint list which gives one-off rewards whenever completed to help newer players build up their collection. Simple things like a nice Crystal reward for having cleared full Progression in Training Grounds for 30 days. Things like having a reward for winning 20 matches in Across Ixalan. Things which a new player can look to working towards as they gradually build up their collection to better be able to enjoy this game.

    As it is, we active groups are compensating for this by trying to pull newer players into our groups to try to net them better rewards here and there all just to help them traverse the initial cliff this game has. We should be working together to suggest ways for the developers to improve the beginner experience. I think pushing for that will do much more good for this game than whatever else has transpired in this topic thus far.
    You don't think these players are getting out-sized rewards since they are sorted by ability and commitment level within your group? Well, they're benefitting from the superior organising capability of your group to gather players of similar level. If every other group out there were similarly organised, these newbie-filled coalitions would be getting rewards from a lower percentile.

    And I would still prefer for there to be some differentiation in rewards to encourage some level of competition. I think the exclusive Mythic reward of The Immortal Sun is a fine reward to encourage that. I think the RIX PP/SP for the top 2/10 coalitions and then a RIX 5-card pack for only the top 50 coalitions instead of the top 100 like before is not and should be under greater scrutiny instead. Does anyone else think so? Only @bken1234 has said anything about this and seems like we are in agreement there.
  • aesith
    aesith Posts: 53 Match Maker
    As already mentioned, reward the mythic/fancy card to individual scores. The coalition rewards are fine. Do not venture down the mythic reward path with consistency as it is a "rich, richer". Granted half my mythics came from this.....

    I think people wanting to turn top 10 do not realise the required scores, card library to build decks and not having a single person score low. One missed round by one person can put an end to your top 10 chance. 
    Been there, done that as one of the first to set all these coalitions up.

    But yeah, not sure how to do tie-breakers but offering the mythics to individual scores opens it up to all.

    Love it.

  • Gunmix25
    Gunmix25 Posts: 1,442 Chairperson of the Boards
    I think this discussion is too fixated on being something else than about the point of the original post. Mods, please close this thread. Thank you 
  • bk1234
    bk1234 Posts: 2,924 Chairperson of the Boards
    [MOD NOTE] Closed at OP's request due to thread being derailed [//]
This discussion has been closed.

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