The RIX Dragon Spirits Need a Buff

GrizzoMtGPQ
GrizzoMtGPQ Posts: 776 Critical Contributor
in MtGPQ General Discussion
These dragons are pathetic. They are not even close to masterpiece level creatures. I would propose the following changes:
  • Reduced the cost to 10 or 12
  • Remove the gem condition on the special effects
  • Add a property that if it dies it immediately comes back to your hand (like Scarab God)
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Comments

  • FindingHeart8
    FindingHeart8 Posts: 2,731 Chairperson of the Boards
    Dude, that would be so much fun.  I play 2 of the dragons and I feel like they're in my decks just for the pretty art.  I support this buff.
  • mrixl2520
    mrixl2520 Posts: 240 Tile Toppler
    I support the idea of removing the gem conditions. It feels arbitrary and makes them less powerful. If you look at the paper versions the death condition is guaranteed. 
  • FindingHeart8
    FindingHeart8 Posts: 2,731 Chairperson of the Boards
    yeah and it's also the gems that you use to cast the dragon, meaning you almost have to pass up on good swaps in hopes of pulling their death conditions off.
  • mrixl2520
    mrixl2520 Posts: 240 Tile Toppler
    Not to mention the AI has gotten very good at using all your mana
  • DBJones
    DBJones Posts: 803 Critical Contributor
    I would love if they did this! That cost decrease might be a bit much if they also come back to your hand though. If they do all the changes, maybe more like 12-14? It's a small difference, but once you get a stack coming back to your hand, it'll matter more. That would only apply if they give it the God cards return to hand ability, the way OP wrote it, they'd die for real if your hand is full when they get hit.
  • FindingHeart8
    FindingHeart8 Posts: 2,731 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited March 2018
    *stands upon a mountainside, and raises hands in the air to the heavens above *

    "Oh great @Brigby !  Please consider these humble players' requests and grant us the wish of making our masterpiece kamigawa dragons less weenies!!"

    But seriously though, GrizzioMtGPQ's first post here has some great ideas, and the dragons in game aren't nearly as good as their cousins in the mtg card game.  Please consider buffing them.


  • sjechua
    sjechua Posts: 173 Tile Toppler
    GrizzoMtGPQ said:
    I would propose the following changes:
    • Reduced the cost to 10 or 12
    • Remove the gem condition on the special effects
    Agree with two of the three proposals. Cost 12 for a 7/7 Flying Dragon, with no gem restrictions. 14 is Mythic level cost 16 is Rare level cost
  • DumasAG
    DumasAG Posts: 719 Critical Contributor
    Removing the gem requirement is the only necessary change, in my opinion. But as the proud owner of choke and counterspell, I'm pretty used to sub-par masterpieces...
  • FindingHeart8
    FindingHeart8 Posts: 2,731 Chairperson of the Boards
    Thuran said:
    A 7/7 for 10 with flying is a bit too much, especially given how they already give usually a 2-for-1, but shaving 1-2 mana off might be OK.

    The gem requirement needs to go; yes, I can get behind this! Would be a huge power boost to them. Or maybe have the requirement be; "if you have 8 or more green cards in your deck...", so they allow for an interesting choice in deckbuilding.

    The gem thing is just too random and uninteresting.

    Return to hand on death: NO! NO! NO!

    They are not freaking gods, and even less zombies. Giving them a mechanic which is so synonymous with other creature types and has nothing to do with their card versions makes no sense at all!

    Also, it would be a huge nerf to kukoshu ;) 

    The scarab god and scorpion god are GODS, that is why they return to the hand.

    Masterpieces should be potent, and unique, but balanced, and wanting to buff them purely based on rarity is just wrong IMO. Make them more unique and interesting, rather than more powerful.

    In theory, rarity reflects complexity, not just power level. The dragons are largely fine, and not every masterpiece should be broken as omniscience.
    to be fair, the kamigawa dragons were the great spirit guardians watching over each realm.

    While they weren't technically Gods like O-Kagachi and the myojin (the only kami possessing the indestructible mechanic that is commonly related to "Gods" of mtg), you could debate (at least from the Kamigawa-lore) that they were closer to demigods, especially because they could extend their powers even beyond death and (in some cases) be resurrected.

    Given that Bolas's Scorpion, Scarab, and Locus gods are the only gods in mtg that also do not possess indestructible since the introduction of the mechanic, yet can also be resurrected...I would see it as reasonable to put the Bolas Gods and the Great Kamigawa spirit dragons on a similar level.
  • Kinesia
    Kinesia Posts: 1,621 Chairperson of the Boards
    Look, the main problem right now is just that they are _bugged_, fix them first before any other shenanigans...

    Many many of the conditional effects on cards including these dragons and Test of Mettle and many others end up linked.

    There are 2 effects on the card, _1_ of which is meant to happen with a special condition but _both_ are tied behind the 2nd condition.

    Most of the dragons only do their "on death" abilitiy if the gems condition is right as well, so they do both effects or neither but that's not what is meant to happen.

    Test of mettle is the same, it doesn't apply 1st strike unless it hurts a non-dino, non-human, but that bit isn't meant to be behind the condition.

    The Ruin land has something like that too.

    Their actions don't match their wording which don't match their intent.

    Fix the dragons _first_ and then think about other changes. a 7/7 flier for 16 is just fine with these extra effects _if_ they worked!
  • khurram
    khurram Posts: 1,090 Chairperson of the Boards
    Cost can remain the same.
    Conditions maybe removed.
    Maybe make the effects trigger when they leave the battlefield instead of just getting destroyed?
    That would include exile and bounce.
  • Kinesia
    Kinesia Posts: 1,621 Chairperson of the Boards
    khurram said:
    Cost can remain the same.
    Conditions maybe removed.
    Maybe make the effects trigger when they leave the battlefield instead of just getting destroyed?
    That would include exile and bounce.

    Leave the conditions, just fix them, but the leave the battlefield idea is excellent, it'd be nice to have some things that work against bounce and exile, might make some of them too powerful though... Very interesting idea though,.
  • Tilwin90
    Tilwin90 Posts: 662 Critical Contributor
    edited March 2018
    I agree that they are a bit overcosted, not because they are elites, but given their size and the trigger-on-death. At least consider colors in that aspect... The flat cost seems a bit sloppy. If I were to recost them I would suggest:
    - Kokusho - 16
    - Keiga - 15
    - Jugan - 16
    - Ryusei - 12
    - Yosei - 12

    As for the conditional on-death, while it sounds cool from a development perspective, I also think it's quite random and not very practical. So I vote the removal of the gem count check.

    I wouldn't return them back to hand though. You can draw multiple copies, and you don't just have to throw them all on the board at the same time. It's not in the spirit of the original cards, so I vote this off.

    Finally, since they are dragons, I can't understand why they were not granted flying. If people will want to trigger their death, they will find ways to do it in their decks instead of slamming them into vigilance creatures. Other people might disagree of course, but it's part of respecting the original design too, and these dragons are definitely flying!
  • Matthew
    Matthew Posts: 605 Critical Contributor
    Tilwin90 said:

    Finally, since they are dragons, I can't understand why they were not granted flying. If people will want to trigger their death, they will find ways to do it in their decks instead of slamming them into vigilance creatures. Other people might disagree of course, but it's part of respecting the original design too, and these dragons are definitely flying!
    I'm pretty sure every single one of them has flying...
  • khurram
    khurram Posts: 1,090 Chairperson of the Boards
    Kinesia said:
    khurram said:
    Cost can remain the same.
    Conditions maybe removed.
    Maybe make the effects trigger when they leave the battlefield instead of just getting destroyed?
    That would include exile and bounce.

    Leave the conditions, just fix them, but the leave the battlefield idea is excellent, it'd be nice to have some things that work against bounce and exile, might make some of them too powerful though... Very interesting idea though,.

    If the conditions are not removed I suggest making them trigger on 6 gems instead of 8 except for Jugan (who is green).
  • FindingHeart8
    FindingHeart8 Posts: 2,731 Chairperson of the Boards
    Tilwin90 said:
    I agree that they are a bit overcosted, not because they are elites, but given their size and the trigger-on-death. At least consider colors in that aspect... The flat cost seems a bit sloppy. If I were to recost them I would suggest:
    - Kokusho - 16
    - Keiga - 15
    - Jugan - 16
    - Ryusei - 12
    - Yosei - 12

    As for the conditional on-death, while it sounds cool from a development perspective, I also think it's quite random and not very practical. So I vote the removal of the gem count check.

    I wouldn't return them back to hand though. You can draw multiple copies, and you don't just have to throw them all on the board at the same time. It's not in the spirit of the original cards, so I vote this off.

    Finally, since they are dragons, I can't understand why they were not granted flying. If people will want to trigger their death, they will find ways to do it in their decks instead of slamming them into vigilance creatures. Other people might disagree of course, but it's part of respecting the original design too, and these dragons are definitely flying!
    I'm confused, the legendary kamigawa dragons do have flying in mtgpq.  Did you mean something else?

    Totally on board with the cost reduction btw.

    @Kinesia I have both Kokusho and Ryusei and their secondaries (in the rare circumstances where I can actually meet the conditions) do work as they read, so I don't know what bug you're referring to unless you're referencing a different dragon lol
  • Tilwin90
    Tilwin90 Posts: 662 Critical Contributor
    Oh sorry... I got confused with the red mythic dragon that does not have flying... Which indeed is accurate. Sorry for the mix up 
  • FindingHeart8
    FindingHeart8 Posts: 2,731 Chairperson of the Boards
    Tilwin90 said:
    Oh sorry... I got confused with the red mythic dragon that does not have flying... Which indeed is accurate. Sorry for the mix up 
    no worries man, except I think you might be referring to a dinosaur.  I double checked and all dragons in mtgpq have flying, but there are red mythic dinosaurs that do not.  Is that what you mean?
  • Tilwin90
    Tilwin90 Posts: 662 Critical Contributor
    FindingHeart8 said:
    Tilwin90 said:
    Oh sorry... I got confused with the red mythic dragon that does not have flying... Which indeed is accurate. Sorry for the mix up 
    no worries man, except I think you might be referring to a dinosaur.  I double checked and all dragons in mtgpq have flying, but there are red mythic dinosaurs that do not.  Is that what you mean?
    Ah darn, these are DINOSAURS. Makes sense. *facepalm*
    The way Etali and Nezahal look I always imagined they are dragons. Zetalpa is just as confusing but at least she has flying. :tongue:

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