GIVE ME MY GREG BACK

rafalele

Lars said:

wereotter said:

Lars said:

wereotter said:

The point is, if you're on these forums, chances are, your voice is an outlier. The typical player likely isn't on here, and likely isn't as hardcore into the game as you are, and probably will be turned away if the game is too challenging, and fewer players getting into the game, or sticking with it, is bad for the health of the game overall.

I'm not sure that's true. Casual players are _more_ likely to be represented on forums, as they are more interested in the social side of the game, which is what forums represent. A forum poster might be better at articulating _why_ they think some aspect of game should be changed than an 'average' player, or simply have more time to engage in the forums to do that, but there's no particular reason why posting on forums automatically makes you less representative of the game's players as a group.

I’m referring to the casual player as the one who just downloaded the app and plays it. They may not even know a forum exists for the game, let alone chat on it if they do. This is who I had in mind when I mention that kind of player.

I mean consider how many players exist in this game, then think about how many names you see here and with what frequency. The majority of players don’t give feedback on here. 

True; but just because a minority of players post here, it doesn't mean they are 'outliers'. Since they are players, their views are entirely representative of players.

No they are not. I think no one in my 20 player coalition read or post in this forums, what I know is that I do not represent their thoughts or ideas. So you do not either.

Everone here write what they tought, no more. Your wishes are not mine.

Do you really think that if you make a poll to every player of this game about IA's level most of the players would like hardest IA? Really? This is just a game.

Lars

rafalele said:

Lars said:

wereotter said:

Lars said:

wereotter said:

The point is, if you're on these forums, chances are, your voice is an outlier. The typical player likely isn't on here, and likely isn't as hardcore into the game as you are, and probably will be turned away if the game is too challenging, and fewer players getting into the game, or sticking with it, is bad for the health of the game overall.

I'm not sure that's true. Casual players are _more_ likely to be represented on forums, as they are more interested in the social side of the game, which is what forums represent. A forum poster might be better at articulating _why_ they think some aspect of game should be changed than an 'average' player, or simply have more time to engage in the forums to do that, but there's no particular reason why posting on forums automatically makes you less representative of the game's players as a group.

I’m referring to the casual player as the one who just downloaded the app and plays it. They may not even know a forum exists for the game, let alone chat on it if they do. This is who I had in mind when I mention that kind of player.

I mean consider how many players exist in this game, then think about how many names you see here and with what frequency. The majority of players don’t give feedback on here. 

True; but just because a minority of players post here, it doesn't mean they are 'outliers'. Since they are players, their views are entirely representative of players.

No they are not. I think no one in my 20 player coalition read or post in this forums, what I know is that I do not represent their thoughts or ideas. So you do not either.

Given that D3 run this forum and have stated an interest in player feedback, it seems certain that they don't agree with your assertion. Why ask players for feedback when you know for a fact that the only people who will answer you are guaranteed to be unrepresentative?

madwren

Lars said:

wereotter said:

The point is, if you're on these forums, chances are, your voice is an outlier. The typical player likely isn't on here, and likely isn't as hardcore into the game as you are, and probably will be turned away if the game is too challenging, and fewer players getting into the game, or sticking with it, is bad for the health of the game overall.

I'm not sure that's true. Casual players are _more_ likely to be represented on forums, as they are more interested in the social side of the game, which is what forums represent. A forum poster might be better at articulating _why_ they think some aspect of game should be changed than an 'average' player, or simply have more time to engage in the forums to do that, but there's no particular reason why posting on forums automatically makes you less representative of the game's players as a group.

Just to intervene, saying that casual players are more interested in the social side of the game isn't true. The majority of the large-scale coalitions initially coalesced around a single community (which has now become multiple communities), and the social aspect is what has kept us here even when we have been utterly disappointed/frustrated/dismayed at the state of the game.

This forum has a lot of great posters, but they come from both casual and hardcore sides of the game. It isn't coincidental that a number of the most frequent posters come from Goblinpile, though.

Kinesia

The mastery system isn't good enough to split people up.

I want better AI at higher levels, but jumping from gold to platinum gets heaps harder because you are playing against much better decks in the first place, So "Platinum Veterans" need different things from "Platinum Squires", but how is that line drawn?

Gold to Platinum can't be the place where the AI gets better, it has to be further on into Platinum, but I don't know how to decide that "nicely".

NinjaE

wereotter said:

Honestly, I don't mind the lowered difficulty.

I don't come to the game for a challenge, I come to enjoy myself and to relax, and the higher difficulty wasn't really achieving that. It seems to me he's in a good place between the absolute moron it was prior to Ixalan and the high difficulty he has been in the last few weeks.

I also just an reminded of an issue regarding difficulty that was in play with another game I am involved in wherein the outliers of the game who were the most hardcore kept complaining that the game was too easy, and since they were the loudest voices, the developers took that to imply that they spoke for the community and massively raised the difficulty of the game. Then they took note of how few players were completing content, and started to get backlash against the higher difficulty and tuned things back down, but not until the game had suffered as a result of the higher difficulty for over a year, disengaging many players. The point is, if you're on these forums, chances are, your voice is an outlier. The typical player likely isn't on here, and likely isn't as hardcore into the game as you are, and probably will be turned away if the game is too challenging, and fewer players getting into the game, or sticking with it, is bad for the health of the game overall.

I feel like this sums up how I like to play the game pretty accurately.

Brigby

Player feedback is important for us to understand, because it provides perspective outside of just the minds at D3/Oktagon. We created this forum to gather the thoughts and sentiment of players like all of you. There is a wide variety of players here, both newcomers and veterans alike, but it's no surprise that players who frequently post are usually the most passionate about wanting to see the game improve and grow.

Having said that though, we also understand that there are players out there who either don't know the forum exists or are just content with playing the game and going with the flow. That doesn't mean that their feedback doesn't matter. It just means we need to work harder to make sure their voices are heard, hence the occasional in-game poll we provide.

GrizzoMtGPQ

@Brigby bring back the smart AI for Platinum. Let the low colors have this dullard.

Lars

Kinesia said:

The mastery system isn't good enough to split people up.

I want better AI at higher levels, but jumping from gold to platinum gets heaps harder because you are playing against much better decks in the first place, So "Platinum Veterans" need different things from "Platinum Squires", but how is that line drawn?

Gold to Platinum can't be the place where the AI gets better, it has to be further on into Platinum, but I don't know how to decide that "nicely".

Isn't it about time a new Diamond tier is introduced?

Kinesia

Lars said:

Kinesia said:

The mastery system isn't good enough to split people up.

I want better AI at higher levels, but jumping from gold to platinum gets heaps harder because you are playing against much better decks in the first place, So "Platinum Veterans" need different things from "Platinum Squires", but how is that line drawn?

Gold to Platinum can't be the place where the AI gets better, it has to be further on into Platinum, but I don't know how to decide that "nicely".

Isn't it about time a new Diamond tier is introduced?

Grin. They probably deliberately avoided calling the tiers "Common", "Uncommon", "Mythic", "Legendary"...

FindingHeart8

Lars said:

wereotter said:

I mean consider how many players exist in this game, then think about how many names you see here and with what frequency. The majority of players don’t give feedback on here. 

True; but just because a minority of players post here, it doesn't mean they are 'outliers'. Since they are players, their views are entirely representative of players.

It doesn't confirm they're outliers or that their views are entirely representative of the player population.

We're a sample population, but since we're not a true random sample, our collective opinion on these threads are not a determinant to predicting the views of the mass.  Only the developers who are able to compare their revenue fluctuation have the knowledge to determine the impact of their choices.

That being said, the players who are active in these threads are passionate enough about the game to go out of their way to mingle with strangers and debate about (frequently complex) game mechanics...with no guarantee that it will have any effect on the game whatsoever.  That, in my opinion, makes them more committed to this game than your general "casual player."

Mburn7

@bken1234 please shut this down, its gone a bit off topic and I'm gonna make a poll for the AI difficulty issue instead

Lars

FindingHeart8 said:

Lars said:

wereotter said:

I mean consider how many players exist in this game, then think about how many names you see here and with what frequency. The majority of players don’t give feedback on here. 

True; but just because a minority of players post here, it doesn't mean they are 'outliers'. Since they are players, their views are entirely representative of players.

It doesn't confirm they're outliers or that their views are entirely representative of the player population.

We're a sample population, but since we're not a true random sample, our collective opinion on these threads are not a determinant to predicting the views of the mass. 

You're right there, we are a self selecting sample, which does not necessarily mean we are, or are not, a representative sample. If you want to make a statement like 'your voice is an outlier', then, it seems like you'd better have some data to back it up.

FindingHeart8 said:

That being said, the players who are active in these threads are passionate enough about the game to go out of their way to mingle with strangers and debate about (frequently complex) game mechanics...with no guarantee that it will have any effect on the game whatsoever.  That, in my opinion, makes them more committed to this game than your general "casual player."

Being more committed that the average player does not mean that their views about the game, and what they want from it, are different.

wereotter

Lars said:

FindingHeart8 said:

Lars said:

wereotter said:

I mean consider how many players exist in this game, then think about how many names you see here and with what frequency. The majority of players don’t give feedback on here. 

True; but just because a minority of players post here, it doesn't mean they are 'outliers'. Since they are players, their views are entirely representative of players.

It doesn't confirm they're outliers or that their views are entirely representative of the player population.

We're a sample population, but since we're not a true random sample, our collective opinion on these threads are not a determinant to predicting the views of the mass. 

You're right there, we are a self selecting sample, which does not necessarily mean we are, or are not, a representative sample. If you want to make a statement like 'your voice is an outlier', then, it seems like you'd better have some data to back it up.

FindingHeart8 said:

That being said, the players who are active in these threads are passionate enough about the game to go out of their way to mingle with strangers and debate about (frequently complex) game mechanics...with no guarantee that it will have any effect on the game whatsoever.  That, in my opinion, makes them more committed to this game than your general "casual player."

Being more committed that the average player does not mean that their views about the game, and what they want from it, are different.

Actually.... being more committed means that your views are more likely to be skewed. People who are really into the game are likely to have the skills or resources to meet harder challenges than less dedicated players due to the amount of time and resources spent into the game. That means our perception of the game is skewed in a way that will cause some of us to cry for higher difficulty when the game may already be too difficult for others.

I never meant to imply that the opinions of people on the forums are irrelevant, because clearly they aren't. It's just important to realize that sometimes what we think is best for the game based on our observations might not be best for the player base at large.

FindingHeart8

Lars said:

FindingHeart8 said:

Lars said:

wereotter said:

I mean consider how many players exist in this game, then think about how many names you see here and with what frequency. The majority of players don’t give feedback on here. 

True; but just because a minority of players post here, it doesn't mean they are 'outliers'. Since they are players, their views are entirely representative of players.

It doesn't confirm they're outliers or that their views are entirely representative of the player population.

We're a sample population, but since we're not a true random sample, our collective opinion on these threads are not a determinant to predicting the views of the mass. 

You're right there, we are a self selecting sample, which does not necessarily mean we are, or are not, a representative sample. If you want to make a statement like 'your voice is an outlier', then, it seems like you'd better have some data to back it up.

(I've bolded both your posts to highlight the contradiction)

The following sentence, which somehow seems to have been lost in your quote of what I said, states "Only the developers who are able to compare their revenue fluctuation have the knowledge to determine the impact of their choices."

Neither of us have the information available to make a claim on whether or not we are our opinions reflect accurately to mtgpq's mass population.  However, I was originally replying to your post that contradicts your most recent reply:

"True; but just because a minority of players post here, it doesn't mean they are 'outliers'. Since they are players, their views are entirely representative of players."

Here you're either making the claim that the our opinions on these threads are the direct will of the mtgpq players, or you're being redundant.

However, if you actually meant something different than what you wrote, could you clarify?

FindingHeart8 said:

That being said, the players who are active in these threads are passionate enough about the game to go out of their way to mingle with strangers and debate about (frequently complex) game mechanics...with no guarantee that it will have any effect on the game whatsoever.  That, in my opinion, makes them more committed to this game than your general "casual player."

Lars replied:
Being more committed that the average player does not mean that their views about the game, and what they want from it, are different.

No, but it doesn't prove it either.  My point here was speculative, which is why I stated it as my opinion and my observations that supported it.

Lars

wereotter said:

Actually.... being more committed means that your views are more likely to be skewed. People who are really into the game are likely to have the skills or resources to meet harder challenges than less dedicated players due to the amount of time and resources spent into the game. That means our perception of the game is skewed in a way that will cause some of us to cry for higher difficulty when the game may already be too difficult for others.

Pure speculation. It sounds like the kind of thing that might be true, but it's easy to see that isn't: Look at the most popular thread on the forum right now, and you'll see it's full of posters who are complaining that the game is too difficult for them. I see that you're not telling *them* that their opinions are firmly in the minority because they are people who post on this forum.

wereotter

Lars said:

wereotter said:

Actually.... being more committed means that your views are more likely to be skewed. People who are really into the game are likely to have the skills or resources to meet harder challenges than less dedicated players due to the amount of time and resources spent into the game. That means our perception of the game is skewed in a way that will cause some of us to cry for higher difficulty when the game may already be too difficult for others.

Pure speculation. It sounds like the kind of thing that might be true, but it's easy to see that isn't: Look at the most popular thread on the forum right now, and you'll see it's full of posters who are complaining that the game is too difficult for them. I see that you're not telling *them* that their opinions are firmly in the minority because they are people who post on this forum.

You're taking my generalization with already admitted exceptions and applying it as a rule. I'm done having this conversation with you. I still stand by the assertion that IN GENERAL people who post on the forum are a minority of the players and IN GENERAL the most engaged in the game. This means that IN GENERAL their opinions may be outliers from the opinions of the majority of players.

This never implied that the opinions are 100% in opposition to the opinions of other players or that 100% of people who post here are of one set group.

Brigby

*Closing this topic due to OP's request, off-topic deviation, as well as to avoid potential attacks against other players.