Elite Pack Repeats

MDsupa
MDsupa Posts: 124 Tile Toppler
in MtGPQ General Discussion
I can't find the thread that discuss this before, but i thought this was fix.  I saved 1200 pinkies and Open 3 RIX Mythic Elite pack and yet, out of 41 cards.  I got 1 repeat out of the 3 open.  I thought it suppose to be near impossible to get repeat.  Very discouraging when you saved these for over a few months.  Especially when I didn't have any cards before this. :/
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Comments

  • Gideon
    Gideon Posts: 356 Mover and Shaker
    They claim it’s working perfectly.
  • Indymon
    Indymon Posts: 35 Just Dropped In
    I got one repeat out of three as well. Insanity. 
  • khurram
    khurram Posts: 1,090 Chairperson of the Boards
    GrizzoMtGPQ said:
    MDsupa said:
    I can't find the thread that discuss this before, but i thought this was fix.  I saved 1200 pinkies and Open 3 RIX Mythic Elite pack and yet, out of 41 cards.  I got 1 repeat out of the 3 open.  I thought it suppose to be near impossible to get repeat.  Very discouraging when you saved these for over a few months.  Especially when I didn't have any cards before this. :/
    Are you the mayor of valuetown yet?
    He has only applied for the residentship yet.
  • rafalele
    rafalele Posts: 876 Critical Contributor
    I have opened 4 premium packs and got 2 mythic, one Tetzimoc.

    Opened 3 Elite Packs and got two Tetzimoc and a new one.
  • _Daromax_
    _Daromax_ Posts: 22 Just Dropped In
    After they changed the policy of no reroll for dupes I decided it's too risky to buy one having even a few cards of the pack because rune compensation is not good enough so when the Ixalan elite packs were introduced (especially considering the size of the pool) I didn't hesitate to buy one - I've pulled 'Blood Baron of Vizkopa' with zero chance for dupe. I was super happy about it - my first masterpiece from elite pack. I was motivated to grind every event to earn pink crystals to get another pack. When I finally collected 400 pink crystal I had only the Baron and two mythics I got from packs (I completely forgot to consider them in the calculation of my chances) so out of 36 (I guess) cards pool I had 3 cards. I couldn't believe my eyes when I bought second pack - I've pulled another 'Bloody Baron of Vizkopa' 

    That kind of experience completely discourage and drains all the fun from this game. Now I don't see any other way than buying only one RIX elite pack and wait until the new expansion because I'm afraid that something that happened with only Vorlak knows how low chance will happen again :/

    BTW: what do you think is the safe ratio of the cards you have and the cards you want in buying an elite pack?
  • Volrak
    Volrak Posts: 732 Critical Contributor
    edited March 2018
    MDsupa said:
    I thought it suppose to be near impossible to get repeat.
    I'm sorry about your dupes, but nothing like that was ever promised.

    _Daromax_ said:
    BTW: what do you think is the safe ratio of the cards you have and the cards you want in buying an elite pack?
    "Safe" as in guaranteed no dupes: zero.  Generally, if you have n% of the mythics out of what the pack you open could contain (say 5%), then if you do get a mythic, it has the same percentage chance of being a dupe.   And of the thousands of players in that situation, a dupe will happen and does happen to 5% of them.
  • Kinesia
    Kinesia Posts: 1,621 Chairperson of the Boards
    I am hoping the way they set up the packs was the "quick fix" they could implement fast just by upping the numbers and that proper dupe prevention is coming in the future...
  • Volrak
    Volrak Posts: 732 Critical Contributor
    Kinesia said:
    dupe prevention
    You're also hoping for something that was never promised for elite packs.  That doesn't mean you're not allowed to want it, of course, but sometimes there's a fine line between wishes and expectations.

    Also, in the case of orbs, we've already been given dupe prevention, which far exceeded anyone's expectations.  I could be mischaracterising things, but already the appearance seems to be that we as players have outgrown all appreciation for that, incredible as it was and still is, and are back to wanting more.  It's worth pondering the lessons D3/Oktagon might be taking away from that.
  • Kinesia
    Kinesia Posts: 1,621 Chairperson of the Boards
    Volrak said:
    Kinesia said:
    dupe prevention
    You're also hoping for something that was never promised for elite packs.  That doesn't mean you're not allowed to want it, of course, but sometimes there's a fine line between wishes and expectations.

    Also, in the case of orbs, we've already been given dupe prevention, which far exceeded anyone's expectations.  I could be mischaracterising things, but already the appearance seems to be that we as players have outgrown all appreciation for that, incredible as it was and still is, and are back to wanting more.  It's worth pondering the lessons D3/Oktagon might be taking away from that.

    @Volrak Nodnod, I totally understand. And technically getting a dupe masterpiece is pretty awesome, the problem isn't the logic part of our brains, it's the feeling.

    Any chance the brain has to feel bad it will. It will overlook everything good given the slightest loophole.

    Mixing the mythics with the masterpieces is the first part of this... It doesn't matter if the chance of getting a masterpiece is higher than ever because if you get a mythic, even if it's one you wanted, your brain will immediately go "Awww, not a masterpiece!" and you can't stop yourself feeling that even if you know all the logic.

    Dupes are the same, realistically they are nowhere near as bad as they once were and the crafting system is awesome in both theory and execution...

    It's just that you've spent time saving up purple (especially when it's your very first purple pack, that might have taken ages!) and you open it and... "Awww, not a dupe!"

    And noone can stop themselves feeling that way. People feeling that way is bad for the company in the long run so it's better if they work out a plan to remove that feeling somehow.


    There are absolutely still examples of it in game in other places, like when you are crafting for a particular card, but there you have the fallback of knowing for _certain_ you can keep grinding and get what you are after.


    It's a psychological problem that can't be solved through logic, it needs to be designed around so people don't get the initial feeling. (And, yeah, I don't have a 100% answer for how yet, I know a few things that can diminish it, but no way to get rid of it.)

  • Volrak
    Volrak Posts: 732 Critical Contributor
    Kinesia said:

    the problem isn't the logic part of our brains, it's the feeling.
    Yes, I agree completely, and also see it as a real problem.  No matter how fair and clear the odds are prior to making the RNG roll, mtgpq still has plenty of scope for players to feel bad depending on the result they get.  (Ironically, this calls for some override or control on top of the randomness, when that's often exactly the perception of how things already are when unlucky outcomes occur.)
  • FindingHeart8
    FindingHeart8 Posts: 2,731 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited March 2018
    Volrak said:
    Kinesia said:
    dupe prevention
    You're also hoping for something that was never promised for elite packs.  That doesn't mean you're not allowed to want it, of course, but sometimes there's a fine line between wishes and expectations.

    Also, in the case of orbs, we've already been given dupe prevention, which far exceeded anyone's expectations.  I could be mischaracterising things, but already the appearance seems to be that we as players have outgrown all appreciation for that, incredible as it was and still is, and are back to wanting more.  It's worth pondering the lessons D3/Oktagon might be taking away from that.
    I'm with you on this Volrak.

    Before Across Ixalan, when even at Platinum it took weeks of investing pink crystals through TotP, I could understand player's frustration for all that work leading to a mere low-tier dupe mythic.  However now (thanks to Across Ixalan) pink crystals are almost as common as the generic yellow crystals, and we get a free pack if we complete the event.

    With a new batch of mythics, I see minimal reason for players to complain about elite dupes right now, and certainly hope Octagon doesn't take unfavorable critiques to heart or as a motive to make changes the general mtgpq community would enjoy less.
  • ZW2007-
    ZW2007- Posts: 812 Critical Contributor
    edited March 2018
    Assuming it takes you a week to earn 400 jewels (spoiler, it takes far longer for 99% of the players) and you get a dupe mythic from all your Elite Packs, you'll earn 750 orbs (during this first month) and then 500 orbs after that per week. This means it would take you thirteen weeks of these terrible results (and amazing event performance) to be able to craft one new mythic from the newest set. Let that sink in, thirteen weeks; that's almost 3 months. A new paper set releases every three months.

    Of course this is a very extreme example but as we've seen, someone out there will get hit with such horrible luck. Also, keep in mind we no longer get rare rewards. Those were a huge boon to your orb supply if you bought enough of the new set to get most of the rares. Yes, booster crafting was generous for those players that already had huge collections and also had massive amounts of saved up dupes. At this point though, booster crafting is no longer very generous, especially when you look at it through the lens of Elite Pack dupes. Elite Pack dupes should reward half the cost to craft a mythic at the very least but this forum goer thinks they should just be dupe free at the 400 jewels cost.

    And remember, the last time we had this convo, the Elite Packs were limited to certain cards. Now the entire set is in one Elite Pack so there will be no cherry picking of the best mythics in the set by buying all the cards in a limited pool Elite Pack.
  • FindingHeart8
    FindingHeart8 Posts: 2,731 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited March 2018
    ZW2007- said:
    Assuming it takes you a week to earn 400 jewels (spoiler, it takes far longer for 99% of the players) and you get a dupe mythic from all your Elite Packs, you'll earn 750 orbs (during this first month) and then 500 orbs after that per week. This means it would take you thirteen weeks of these terrible results (and amazing event performance) to be able to craft one new mythic from the newest set. Let that sink in, thirteen weeks; that's almost 3 months. A new paper set releases every three months.

    Of course this is a very extreme example but as we've seen, someone out there will get hit with such horrible luck. Also, keep in mind we no longer get rare rewards. Those were a huge boon to your orb supply if you bought enough of the new set to get most of the rares. Yes, booster crafting was generous for those players that already had huge collections and also had massive amounts of saved up dupes. At this point though, booster crafting is no longer very generous, especially when you look at it through the lens of Elite Pack dupes. Elite Pack dupes should reward half the cost to craft a mythic at the very least but this forum goer thinks they should just be dupe free at the 400 jewels cost.

    And remember, the last time we had this convo, the Elite Packs were limited to certain cards. Now the entire set is in one Elite Pack so there will be no cherry picking of the best mythics in the set by buying all the cards in a limited pool Elite Pack.
    You're right ZW2007, this is an extreme example.

    With Across Ixalan, a Plat player can score 25 pink crystals per day (20 per day for gold).  That means every 20 days a gold player can take a shot at a new mythic, and with this current batch they're guaranteed at least 1 new one.

    Presuming Across Ixalan is a player's only source of orbs, and every mythic pack opened is a dupe, it would take 17 weeks for a gold player to have enough orbs for a legacy mythic.

    However if you factor in the booster pack you get in every Across Ixalan event (presuming each pack is are all common dupes, the worst possible pack pull), you still get an additional 350 orbs per week.  Which means every 8.5 weeks you can open a legacy mythic pack just off the pack orbs alone.

    Now I haven't even combined the two yet, but it would average about to being at least (in the worst possible scenarios ever) double the profit of the estimation you've given.

    edit: I don't mean this in a condescending way (because it's easy to misinterpret through text), just pointing out a different perspective via math.
  • ZW2007-
    ZW2007- Posts: 812 Critical Contributor
    edited March 2018
    FindingHeart8 said:

    With Across Ixalan, a Plat player can score 25 pink crystals per day (20 per day for gold).  That means every 20 days a gold player can take a shot at a new mythic, and with this current batch they're guaranteed at least 1 new one.

    That's assuming that player didn't open a single mythic from Premium Packs that almost certainly bought as soon as the set released. The point is, no player, unless spending a ton of cash to buy crystals, will ever come close to getting all the cards again. Some players were able to complete their collections when booster crafting released but there is no way that will ever happen moving forward.

    Edit: And keep in mind a legacy mythic costs less than half of a newest set mythic. And are also the worst investment for new players as far as I'm concerned considering you can't use them in events that have 300 jewels as the top prize.
  • FindingHeart8
    FindingHeart8 Posts: 2,731 Chairperson of the Boards
    I'd be more likely to assume that, after weeks of Across Ixalan yet nothing but mediocre Ixalan mythics to spend it on, players would be more eager at a shot at one of the new Kamigawa dragons that you can't get in the packs.  Also, the probability of getting a mythic in a premium pack, and then getting the same mythic in the elite pack is so low it would easily fit as a worst case scenario.

    The point is, no player, unless spending a ton of cash to buy crystals, will ever come close to getting all the cards again. Some players were able to complete their collections when booster crafting released but there is no way that will ever happen moving forward.

    I mean...I don't see an abundance of available cards as a bad thing.

    Edit: And keep in mind a legacy mythic costs less than half of a newest set mythic. And are also the worst investment for new players as far as I'm concerned considering you can't use them in events that have 300 jewels as the top prize
    This doesn't make any sense to me.  In what game ever would a new player think they can get the top prize in a grand tournament consisting of thousands of players?

    Pink jewels are an end-game luxury for veteran players to chase after, that have now been made more accessible to newer players thanks to Octagon being awesome.  New players should start off playing through Story Mode to learn game mechanics and acquire plenty of crystals, a place where legacy mythics are useful and encouraged.  There are also still frequently legacy events where legacy mythics are still useful, and the awarded crystals can award them standard cards.


  • ZW2007-
    ZW2007- Posts: 812 Critical Contributor
    FindingHeart8 said:
    I'd be more likely to assume that, after weeks of Across Ixalan yet nothing but mediocre Ixalan mythics to spend it on, players would be more eager at a shot at one of the new Kamigawa dragons that you can't get in the packs.  Also, the probability of getting a mythic in a premium pack, and then getting the same mythic in the elite pack is so low it would easily fit as a worst case scenario.
    Worst case scenarios can and do happen. A teammate of mine got 3 Zetalpa's from 3 separate Premium Packs. There's no reason that same thing couldn't happen in an Elite Pack. 
    FindingHeart8 said:

    I mean...I don't see an abundance of available cards as a bad thing.

    I'm not really sure what you mean here. An abundance of cards available that you could get? Of course it's not a bad thing. The bad thing is that because there are so many, there are always going to be an abundance of cards you want that you never will get.

    FindingHeart8 said:

    Edit: And keep in mind a legacy mythic costs less than half of a newest set mythic. And are also the worst investment for new players as far as I'm concerned considering you can't use them in events that have 300 jewels as the top prize
    This doesn't make any sense to me.  In what game ever would a new player think they can get the top prize in a grand tournament consisting of thousands of players?

    Pink jewels are an end-game luxury for veteran players to chase after, that have now been made more accessible to newer players thanks to Octagon being awesome.  New players should start off playing through Story Mode to learn game mechanics and acquire plenty of crystals, a place where legacy mythics are useful and encouraged.  There are also still frequently legacy events where legacy mythics are still useful, and the awarded crystals can award them standard cards.


    I didn't mean to imply they should think they can win those events immediately. Building a collection of Standard mythics is the smarter choice though so that those players can eventually hope to compete in those big events. Legacy mythics are no more useful in story mode than Standard legal mythics. The difference is Standard mythics can be used for any event in the game and Legacy ones cannot. Jewels are not an end-game luxury, they are a core part of this games economy across all tiers. And the entire reason I brought up the comparison in the first place is because in my original post I commented on the cost of a booster crafted new set mythic and the time it takes to earn those orbs and you countered by talking about buying a Legacy mythic that doesn't even cost half the price of a newest set mythic. If you are spending jewels on RIX mythics, you want RIX mythics. If you are getting dupes from those jewels, you'll want to use those orbs to make RIX mythics.

    I'm still not sure what your argument is against improving Elite Packs. Here's my argument for it: If they have the entire set in one pack, there shouldn't be dupes or dupes should reward at least 3750 orbs during the first month and 2500 after that. 
  • FindingHeart8
    FindingHeart8 Posts: 2,731 Chairperson of the Boards
    Worst case scenarios can and do happen. A teammate of mine got 3 Zetalpa's from 3 separate Premium Packs. There's no reason that same thing couldn't happen in an Elite Pack.
    my sympathy to your teammate for such cruddy luck.  From the player-side of this, we would need to use @Volrak database to calculate the probability of your average player being that unlucky with the new dupes, or if your teammate's situation is more of an outlier.

    I'm not really sure what you mean here. An abundance of cards available that you could get? Of course it's not a bad thing. The bad thing is that because there are so many, there are always going to be an abundance of cards you want that you never will get.

    From your stated perspective, I'm guessing you're a completionist.  Personally, I enjoy not having all the cards, it gives me something to look forward to and something to chase after.

    I'm sure they will bring back previous card sets to give you the opportunity to obtain them, it would against their strategic objectives to permanently deprive players of obtaining certain cards.
    I didn't mean to imply they should think they can win those events immediately. Building a collection of Standard mythics is the smarter choice though so that those players can eventually hope to compete in those big events. Legacy mythics are no more useful in story mode than Standard legal mythics. The difference is Standard mythics can be used for any event in the game and Legacy ones cannot. Jewels are not an end-game luxury, they are a core part of this games economy across all tiers. And the entire reason I brought up the comparison in the first place is because in my original post I commented on the cost of a booster crafted new set mythic and the time it takes to earn those orbs and you countered by talking about buying a Legacy mythic that doesn't even cost half the price of a newest set mythic. If you are spending jewels on RIX mythics, you want RIX mythics. If you are getting dupes from those jewels, you'll want to use those orbs to make RIX mythics.

    I'm still not sure what your argument is against improving Elite Packs. Here's my argument for it: If they have the entire set in one pack, there shouldn't be dupes or dupes should reward at least 3750 orbs during the first month and 2500 after that. 

    Previous to Across Ixalan, newer players got minimal returns for participating in TotP in comparison to Platinum players.  I discouraged the newer members of my crew from participating in TotP until they were at least gold, and I know other groups that do the same.

    Thanks for your clarification.  I understand where you're coming from now and withdraw my counterargument.  My original thought process is that it's better for newer players to get legacy mythics, build up an arsenal of yellow crystals through storymode and legacy events, and then cross the bridge with the few legacy events that offer standard cards as rewards + purchasing standard packs with earned crystals and use the cards earned from standard packs to compete in Across Ixalan for mythics.

    But looking again at the price for an Rivals mythic via orbs (geez you're right that is pricey) and understanding that your original point was a player that specifically wants Rivals and nothing else, I can see why you'd feel more frustrated about it.

    So misinterpretation aside, I'm in agreement with you for your argument of a considerably higher orb-compensation for an elite pack dupe :)
  • Gideon
    Gideon Posts: 356 Mover and Shaker
    Spend 400 jewels to become the mayor of dupe city which is the opposite of “value town”.

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