Can everyone please stop complaining about Ixalan?

2

Comments

  • Volrak
    Volrak Posts: 732 Critical Contributor
    Mainloop25 said:
    Yeah Harvester is definitely a solid card  but I think in order to call a card effective at splashing energy, it has to reliably energize 2-4 gems a turn. That almost always requires mythics. 
    I take "splashing energise" not to mean setting up an engine, but adding one or more playable cards for which some reasonable utility is gained from energised gems, without energise being the primary focus of the deck.  Harvester is that, and to make my point clear using some previous wording from this thread, it's also a "way to enjoy energise" without "a large hurdle to clear"; it's a use of energise that's more than an "academic exercise"; and it's "remotely worth using" without being "locked away behind a mythic brick wall".  It's not just my opinion; Harvester still sometimes makes appearances in AI-driven decks which don't include the key energise mythics.

    None of this means energise particularly shines at all in the absence of the energise mythics.  It doesn't. Though of course some of those mythics are what make arbitrary damage in <5 turns possible; again, hardly useless, despite energise initially being seen as just that.

    There's plenty of scope for Ixalan to turn out similarly.  Or better.  Or worse.  But like OP I find speculation about a complete set on the basis of a handful of spoiler cards to be of limited value.
  • khurram
    khurram Posts: 1,090 Chairperson of the Boards
    Volrak said:
    Matthew said:
    there is really no way, nor is there really a point, to splash Energize without the mythic cards.
    While I agree with your overall sentiment, some of these assertions are a little too sweeping for my tastes.

    A simple example of an energize splash without mythics, having both a way and a point, is Aethersphere Harvester.  It's perfectly serviceable for lifegain without any of the mythics, especially for a PW like Dovin or Saheeli, and still sees use today.
    You can't reliably trigger overload with just harvester and PWs first abilities. Triggering it every 3rd or 4th turn is not sufficient to truly make use of energy.

    I agree that energy can be fun and I frequently use the mechanic but I have all the enablers and they are all mythics.

    For an effective non-mythic route you have to use Dovin's second ability. Or you have to use Decoction Module.. again with _mythic_ token generating supports or with Drake Haven in a cycling deck where energising is kind of not needed anyway.
  • Gunmix25
    Gunmix25 Posts: 1,442 Chairperson of the Boards
    Volrak said:
    Matthew said:
    there is really no way, nor is there really a point, to splash Energize without the mythic cards.
    While I agree with your overall sentiment, some of these assertions are a little too sweeping for my tastes.

    A simple example of an energize splash without mythics, having both a way and a point, is Aethersphere Harvester.  It's perfectly serviceable for lifegain without any of the mythics, especially for a PW like Dovin or Saheeli, and still sees use today.
    Guess who doesn't have aethersphere harvester either?
     You're still applying the need for a splash card but in this case, one rare. I tried to use lesser rarity cards that had a smidgeon of energize ETB effects but I couldn't compete with those that had the good splash cards to feed the energize engine.

    A good comparison is this. You have DH and NP and I have just DH. That's  how bad energize was in KLD/AER for players who lacked the necessary engine to fuel energize cards in the uncommon and common bracket or even rares
  • Mainloop25
    Mainloop25 Posts: 1,959 Chairperson of the Boards
    @Volrak fairfenough. IIjustI  misunderstoodm your use of the term "splash"  My bad. 
  • Gunmix25
    Gunmix25 Posts: 1,442 Chairperson of the Boards
    Mainloop25 said:
    @Volrak fairfenough. IIjustI  misunderstoodm your use of the term "splash"  My bad. 
    Put. The. Pint. Down. XD
  • khurram
    khurram Posts: 1,090 Chairperson of the Boards
    Also I think the topic of this thread is kind of unreasonable. What the OP has labeled as "complaining" and "whining" is simply feedback from players and labeling it with derogatory terms to make it seem like it carries any less weight then other people's feedback is not constructive.

    The "negative"  feedback is at least based on what we know and what has been revealed so far. I applaud your optimism though if you have faith in the upcoming cards without knowing what they will be and while even agreeing at the same time that the revealed cards so far do seem a bit meh. But this thread seem equivalent to if i started a thread with topic "Can everyone please stop praising Ixalan?". Because 15ish Mana 5/6s and 4/4s do seem like trash. 

    I disagree that it happens with every set. Kaladesh was considered weak by SOI standards. This is weak even by KLD's standard. And the bomb cards in KLD set were acknowledged as so from the start. Some people were able to recognise Rashmi's potential from the start (although not me admittedly, but she was my first mythic from the set so I quickly came around after testing it). Visions of brutality wasn't some hidden gem; it was junk until HUF came along would still be gathering dust if HUF wasn't in the game. I don't recall any complaints about OLM and Resilient Khenra. Many of my fellow players actually desired to get OLM. There were concerns about eternalize being weak and apart from the Khenra it is still weak. And the brokenness of Khenra can partially be blamed on it being bugged.
  • Mainloop25
    Mainloop25 Posts: 1,959 Chairperson of the Boards
    Gunmix25 said:
    Mainloop25 said:
    @Volrak fairfenough. IIjustI  misunderstoodm your use of the term "splash"  My bad. 
    Put. The. Pint. Down. XD

    No its this trash heap of a forum mangling my predictive  texting Anda I can't be bothered to fixfit every single damn time. 
  • Drewster
    Drewster Posts: 116 Tile Toppler


    Energy just gets crazy with Dovin Baan. This picture is my last match of 3.1 in RotGP.

    Energy will come back in the same set Bushido comes back in :wink:...
  • Stormcrow
    Stormcrow Posts: 462 Mover and Shaker
    Thoughts, in no particular order:

    - Kaladesh was regarded as underpowered, at first, and...it was. I don't remember anyone calling Aether Revolt underpowered, rather the general feeling was that Aether Revolt was a deliberate effort to make the mechanics that had kind of nonplussed everyone from Kaladesh become actually interesting.

    - I don't remember people declaring Amonkhet underpowered. Maybe they did, but I certainly didn't see it that way. In any case, Hour came out and was very clearly a stronger set. I expect RIX will be stronger than the first Ixalan set, too.

    - It's also worth pointing out that the people calling Kaladesh underpowered were reacting to the jump from SOI/EMN to Kaladesh. It is reasonable to say the SOI/EMN are insanely strong sets. It is also reasonable to remind us that when people were reacting to Kaladesh's previews/first release, in this game there was no such thing as Legacy vs. Standard. If Legacy and Standard weren't things now, people could call Kaladesh, Aether Revolt, Amonkhet, Hour of Devastation, and Ixalan all underpowered, and they would be 100% correct. Because SOI/EMN were so, so ridiculously strong.

    - None of the above thoughts mean that I don't also think that very nearly every single Ixalan card previewed is significantly overcosted, even for the Standard environment, because I do.

    -Speaking of overcosted, the only reason people think Visions of Brutality is a junk card is because it costs 22 mana. 22 MANA! Shockingly, the only reason it gets used now is because people can cast it for free by casting HUF, a vastly stronger card that costs...wait for it.....21 mana! Who knows, if it cost, say, 11 mana to cast, Visions might have even seen play before HUF came along.

    - Point being, pointing out that people have complained about things previously or called things junk does not, by itself, indicate that those people were wrong.

    -On another note, I've had Aetherworks Marvel for a while now, and I recently acquired Dynavolt Tower, but my favorite Energized-gem-generator is still the combination of Decoction Module and Thopter Spy Network. (Riddleform will also get the job done, especially with Aetherworks out as well. Really any source of lots of tiny token critters.)
  • Mburn7
    Mburn7 Posts: 3,427 Chairperson of the Boards
    khurram said:
    Also I think the topic of this thread is kind of unreasonable. What the OP has labeled as "complaining" and "whining" is simply feedback from players and labeling it with derogatory terms to make it seem like it carries any less weight then other people's feedback is not constructive.

    The "negative"  feedback is at least based on what we know and what has been revealed so far. I applaud your optimism though if you have faith in the upcoming cards without knowing what they will be and while even agreeing at the same time that the revealed cards so far do seem a bit meh. But this thread seem equivalent to if i started a thread with topic "Can everyone please stop praising Ixalan?". Because 15ish Mana 5/6s and 4/4s do seem like trash.
    What I've been seeing here goes beyond simple feedback, based on volume if not language.  And even still, I have always tried (unsuccessfully mostly) to encourage people to avoid passing judgement until after the set has been out for a couple weeks, so the interactions and combos can be tested.

    Only 15 cards or so have been revealed so far.  That isn't nearly enough to pass judgement on the set as we have been.  Depending on how easy it is to explore, I don't think the mana costs will be that ridiculous, not with how much mana some walkers generate.  And I fully expect vampires to be broken as all hell with their emphasis on reinforcing.  But we won't know for sure for another week or two, and that is really all I am trying to say.
    khurram said:
    Some people were able to recognise Rashmi's potential from the start (although not me admittedly, but she was my first mythic from the set so I quickly came around after testing it). Visions of brutality wasn't some hidden gem; it was junk until HUF came along would still be gathering dust if HUF wasn't in the game. I don't recall any complaints about OLM and Resilient Khenra.
    My point about Rashimi was based on the several forum posts criticizing her.  I wasn't a part of a major coalition until much more recently, and this was my only place to see comments.  I did not see any good ones.

    My thoughts on OLM and Resilient Khenra were due to the surprise heard from within my coalition when someone managed to use them effectively.  Also based on the fact that I never see anyone using either of them in events.

    And Visions was never totally useless (I actually used it a lot when I first started playing), it is just totally broken with HUF (or Rashimi once we get Vraska).  And that's actually the point, anyway, even garbage cards can be found to be broken with the right combo, but nobody will ever know until they try them out. 

    Writing off an entire set based off a little over a dozen spoiled cards is dumb.  That is my point.  I don't think that's very unreasonable
  • khurram
    khurram Posts: 1,090 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited February 2018
    You are right of course. 
    "Flashy" vampires like the 20 Mana 4/4 'Bishop of the Bloodstained' do indicate that vampires are gonna be "broken as all hell". Can't wait to smash the opponents with the 1/1 vampire token from Call to Feast.  :)

    But I'll avoid making anymore "dumb" speculations, until the release.


  • Gunmix25
    Gunmix25 Posts: 1,442 Chairperson of the Boards
    Mainloop25 said:
    Gunmix25 said:
    Mainloop25 said:
    @Volrak fairfenough. IIjustI  misunderstoodm your use of the term "splash"  My bad. 
    Put. The. Pint. Down. XD

    No its this trash heap of a forum mangling my predictive  texting Anda I can't be bothered to fixfit every single damn time. 
    It's all *hic* good, buddy. Just a lil *hic* ribbing. *knuckle bump*
  • andrewvanmarle
    andrewvanmarle Posts: 978 Critical Contributor
    Mainloop25 said:
    Gunmix25 said:loo
    Mainloop25 said:
    @Volrak fairfenough. IIjustI  misunderstoodm your use of the term "splash"  My bad. 
    Put. The. Pint. Down. XD

    No its this trash heap of a forum mangling my predictive  texting Anda I can't be bothered to fixfit every single damn time. 

    J
    You have that too? I get the first letter atatheaend ofosomeowordsoadded

    Ok ill try again, i get the first letter of some words added to the end of that word and space removed. Its only on this forum. And with swiftkey not the samsung keyboard.
  • Gunmix25
    Gunmix25 Posts: 1,442 Chairperson of the Boards
    Kardynal said:
    As a matter of interest, if you don't think people should give their opinions about recent developments in the game of MTGPQ in the MTGPQ General Discussion forum, what do you think they should do there?
    Dunno shte-Kardynal, maybe voice an opinion about waiting to try the cards first before voicing an opinion about untested cards?

    That's what this thread was about. He seems to think it was a matter of interest.  Don't you? Or are you against having opinions about having uninformed opinions? 

    Thing about opinions, everyone has one.  :)

  • Kinesia
    Kinesia Posts: 1,621 Chairperson of the Boards
    Mainloop25 said:
    Gunmix25 said:
    Mainloop25 said:
    @Volrak fairfenough. IIjustI  misunderstoodm your use of the term "splash"  My bad. 
    Put. The. Pint. Down. XD

    No its this trash heap of a forum mangling my predictive  texting Anda I can't be bothered to fixfit every single damn time. 

    That's a relief, I thought you'd become a Lovecraftian Cultist. Again.
  • Kardynal
    Kardynal Posts: 27 Just Dropped In
    Gunmix25 said:
    Kardynal said:
    As a matter of interest, if you don't think people should give their opinions about recent developments in the game of MTGPQ in the MTGPQ General Discussion forum, what do you think they should do there?
    Dunno shte-Kardynal, maybe voice an opinion about waiting to try the cards first before voicing an opinion about untested cards?

    That's what this thread was about. He seems to think it was a matter of interest.  Don't you? Or are you against having opinions about having uninformed opinions? 

    Thing about opinions, everyone has one.  :)

    It wasn't me who said he couldn't have his opinion; it was him who said I couldn't have mine.
  • khurram
    khurram Posts: 1,090 Chairperson of the Boards
    Gunmix25 said:
    Kardynal said: I
    As a matter of interest, if you don't think people should give their opinions about recent developments in the game of MTGPQ in the MTGPQ General Discussion forum, what do you think they should do there?
    Dunno shte-Kardynal, maybe voice an opinion about waiting to try the cards first before voicing an opinion about untested cards?

    That's what this thread was about. He seems to think it was a matter of interest.  Don't you? Or are you against having opinions about having uninformed opinions? 

    Thing about opinions, everyone has one.  :)

    Can't wait to test Lookout's Dispersal. 

    The opinion is about the cards that have been revealed so far. We'll see the rest of the cards when we see them.
  • Mainloop25
    Mainloop25 Posts: 1,959 Chairperson of the Boards
    andrewvanmarle said:
    Mainloop25 said:
    Gunmix25 said:loo
    Mainloop25 said:
    @Volrak fairfenough. IIjustI  misunderstoodm your use of the term "splash"  My bad. 
    Put. The. Pint. Down. XD

    No its this trash heap of a forum mangling my predictive  texting Anda I can't be bothered to fixfit every single damn time. 

    J
    You have that too? I get the first letter atatheaend ofosomeowordsoadded

    Ok ill try again, i get the first letter of some words added to the end of that word and space removed. Its only on this forum. And with swiftkey not the samsung keyboard.

    I use SwiftKey too! Omg is that the problem? I guess I willwhave totswitch keyboards when I post here. Ugh what a pain... 
  • Sirchombli
    Sirchombli Posts: 322 Mover and Shaker
    This is what happens when people complain too much about power creep. It always ends up OK, and I'm sure it'll be ok. Just wait for the set. It'll be better than the 12 cards spoiled. Just probably less splashy than recent sets. It'll all even out in the end. 

Categories