Cycling vs. Omniscience

ILikePancakes

Other--Please explain

andrewvanmarle said:

@bken1234
@Brigby


Please can someone closed this topic, enough is enough, we allready have a discussion on omniscience and one on huf and one on cycling, the boards really do not benefit from another topic on the same subject with the same people saying the same things.

Thanks

I got a lot of insight from the comments on this thread. I'm sorry it didn't help you.

Furordraco

Other--Please explain

It's heavy to discuss a topic continuously. It can stress people out. However, discussing is always a positive thing, shows you want to find solutions

FindingHeart8

Other--Please explain

ZW2007- said:

Good list, a clarification to my post...when I said fetch I was implying with a free cast.  A fetch but unable to play would be a barrier to a continuous-loop-combo, I thought this was obvious.

Tower Geist and Glint-Nest Crane?  Now you're just naming general fetch cards.  Yes...cards that can fetch any card can fetch HuF.  The point here is Omni paired with Whir of Invention (or that white support that brings back supports from graveyard) can bring another Omni straight to the field, which'll combo until it gets another one, and so on and so on.  HuF at its worst (beyond DtG, which is very powerful but finite) can fetch Bring to Light, and if the next card (10% chance) is HuF then yes it will combo again, but at best if it fetched 3 more Bring to Lights, you'd look at a small chance of pulling it off a second time (don't make me open my old math textbook on the probability of three 10%s lol).

Pyro Goggles fetching and casting HUF for free is enough to win the game immediately in some cases. Does that make it any better or worse than Omni? I don't really know. I also don't know what an infinite/continuous loop combo Omni deck looks like. Everyone talks about it but I have yet to see someone post a list.

I'd agree with you that Pyro Goggles to HUF is a mean mean combo (I should know, I shamelessly run it lol).  But here's a quick layout as to why it's not as bad as Omni:

1) Omni is 17 mana to cast, Goggles is 25
2) Omni combos out the minute it's dropped.  Goggles requires an extra turn to activate, and only activates if you can match 1 of the 3 gems (I've had games I wasn't able to ever activate it and it was a dead support).  This also gives you an opportunity to stop Goggles if you run support destruction or if you make sure your swaps hit their activated gems, there's no opportunity to interact with Omni.
3) It is much more difficult for the AI to abuse Goggles.  AI usually activates HuF when they already have a full hand, and gets 25-50% of their combo.  In my experience facing many Omni decks, the AI combos out with it almost as if I was facing a real other player (who also happened to be a powergamer).
4) The wait time is different.  I've clocked Omni combos taking over 10 minutes to finally kill me.  Goggles+HuF at its absolute worst is over in a minute or less.

bk1234

@andrewvanmarle

Unfortunately stale content does not warrant closing a thread. Since this is a poll, it couldn’t be included in a previous thread and it seems people would like to continue to discuss this. 

ZW2007-

Nerf cycling and Omniscience

Kinesia said:

There isn't one single Omni deck. That's the problem. With HUF people can use whatever high cost spells they happen to have and pick whichever Reddish walker works best for _them_. Same for Omni. People can pick whatever win condition they like out of what they have. If you can't look at your _own_ collection and work out how you could win with Omni then you are probably being deliberately obtuse for the sake of argument.

You are right, there isn't one single Omni deck, but there are only a few ways to potentially make it an infinite loop. That is why I keep asking for a deck list. Everyone still talks about this magical looping Omni deck that only requires the AI to cast Omni, then boom it kills you in one turn and takes up to 10 minutes to do so. Trouble is no one seems to want to type out the list so that it can be analyzed and have its weakness exposed because that wouldn't help their argument. I know plenty of ways to win with Omni and I've used them. None of them create perfect infinite loops that take 10 minutes to kill someone. So I simply ask for someone to show me a perfect Omni deck that will make an infinite loop, with ease, and can't be interrupted.

All cards can combo with what works best for the player. New Perspectives doesn't need to use Drake Haven or Faith to be broken either. It can combo with Shefet Monitor, 7 other cyclers, and Gaea's Revenge. That doesn't change the argument one way or the other. The fact of the matter is this, all the cards discussed in this thread are overpowered. Relegating things to legacy doesn't help the problem either. Saying Deploy is fine but Omni needs nerfed is a joke. There are still tons of legacy events. If all the powerful standard cards get nerfed, that just turns legacy into SOI block constructed.

I don't think any of the cards should be nerfed, cycling and Omni included. But if they are going to do it, I think it needs to be uniform and not just one card because one group complained more loudly than the other. A big factor everyone overlooks is that events have objectives and a lot of the time those objectives run counter to what a looping Omni deck wants to do. Any objective that requires you to cast less than X things will be missed with a looping Omni deck. It will inevitably cast more than the allotted creatures, spells, and supports; especially if it is looping for 10 minutes. If an objective asks you to kill 3 or more creatures, an Omni loop deck isn't going to meet that objective. If it asks you to take 10-15 or less damage, Omni loops most likely won't meet that either. Cycle 3 or more? Not happening. You know what deck can easily meet all of those? A deck abusing New Perspectives and a few cyclers to effectively make your deck less than 10 cards and ensure that you always have what you need in hand at all times.

Here are a few ways to proactively stop Omni:

Overwhelming Splendor: This will increase the free cards cost to 6 mana and immediately shut down any looping.

Insidious Will: Proactively stops anything. Combine it with Sphinx's Tutelage to get more use out of a single iWill and increase your chance of having another one ready before the first one is popped.

Avaricious Dragon: Omni is blue and will land on a blue gem. If AI is looping using Days Undoing, Omni will get blown up very quickly. Not the best strategy but it's a decent countermeasure that is also a very good creature in general.

Jace's Defeat: Not as good as iWill but could shut down the first Whir that starts the loop.

Scab-Clan Berserker: Will probably kill the AI before the Omni loop kills you.

Harsh Mentor: A better Scab-Clan Berserker.

@andrewvanmarle a topic shouldn't be closed because you don't want to read or discuss it. If you aren't interested, don't participate.

FindingHeart8

Other--Please explain

bken1234 said:

@andrewvanmarle

Unfortunately stale content does not warrant closing a thread. Since this is a poll, it couldn’t be included in a previous thread and it seems people would like to continue to discuss this. 

I'd argue that without a "change nothing" option that has been expressed by multiple players in previous and this thread that this is a biased poll, which violates D3s rules and policies and could warrant closing this thread.  There are already multiple other threads that people are discussing this so I do not believe it will have a significant impact on the discussion overall.

Brigby

Hi @ILikePancakes. Thank you for creating a poll, in order to gather community sentiment, however unfortunately the poll does not contain any counter-argument options. (For example, Don't Nerf Cycling or Don't Nerf Omniscience) Due to this, I must close your thread, and request that you create a new poll with options that satisfy both perspectives.

Once you have done so, feel free to reach out to me, and I can merge the comments from this thread into that one. Thank you for understanding.