Cycling vs. Omniscience

FindingHeart8

Other--Please explain

TheDragonHermit said:

Coilbox said:

Also, there should be an option like 'Don't nerf or eliminate any of them'

The poll is biased.

There might be some biasing wording, but the poll itself is fairly solid. There is a question posed that presents 3 binary axises; should something be done about cycling, should something be done about Omniscience, nerf or elimination. This would result in 8 possible answers usually but negative, negative, nerf and negative, negative, eliminate both amount to neither, which could be looked at as the other option, though a definitive negative answer would be appropriate. Furthermore, elimination has its own issues in game design and play with how players would react to a card disappearing from their library and others suddenly losing major functionality. This is The Dragon Hermit, yet again ranting about poll design.

well, giving actual card elimination as a priority over leaving it as-is does make this survey pretty slanted as (from past threads) doing nothing would have a significantly higher vote than card elimination (which no player has ever supported to the best of my knowledge).  And claiming it could be grouped under other would be a cop out in my opinion.

"This is The Dragon Hermit, yet again ranting about poll design. "

On an unrelated note, I'm totally picturing you as a homeless dragon news anchor now.  lol

wereotter

Other--Please explain

Both are broken in this game, but need to be adjusted separately. Cycling is broken because your deck in this game is infinite, and cycling is free without having to jump through the hoops that the paper version requires of you to do the same thing. New Perspectives needs to be adjusted to make all cycling costs 0, but only if you have 6+ cards in hand, and Drake Haven/Faith of the Devoted needs to drain mana off you to have an effect.

Omniscience is ridiculously over power, but so is its paper card. The main problem with it here is that it doesn't cost enough. In paper mana, it's a 10 CMC card that requires triple blue making it one of the hardest to cast spells in the game. There are very few cards in the game with that type of casting cost that don't have a built-in way to reduce themselves. Because of that, there's no reason that Depala or Pyromancer's Goggles should cost more than Omniscience. This card needs to have its casting cost increased by about 10-12 mana and it, along with all other masterpieces, needs to be restricted to legacy events only.

Gilesclone

Nerf Omniscience

Their translations are just bizarre sometimes.  Depala is an excellent cheap card in paper.  I’m not sure what they were thinking.  She should have cost 7 or 8.

Gilesclone

Nerf Omniscience

Btw, I agree that both cycling and Omni are broken.  But I fear if they try to fix cycling they’ll just screw it up.  Omniscience is a much simpler problem.

Mainloop25

Nerf Omniscience

Gilesclone said:

Their translations are just bizarre sometimes.  Depala is an excellent cheap card in paper.  I’m not sure what they were thinking.  She should have cost 7 or 8.

The old designers way overrated the power of fetching in the new days of Kaladesh, which is why Rashmi was thought to be garbage for a long time. They gave us ways to easily cast Rashmi, being a B/G card, but not enough with Depala. I have a Depala deck on my YouTube  page that actually makes decent use of her but it takes a lot of other great cards. 

hawkyh1

Gilesclone said:

Btw, I agree that both cycling and Omni are broken.  But I fear if they try to fix cycling they’ll just screw it up.  Omniscience is a much simpler problem.

I keep getting the impression that players who don't want
omni to not loop know this. that's why they insist on fixing
cycling if omni is fixed. cycling is a mechanic that affects
many cards. it's not a light task to fix. omni on the other
hand is a single card fix. comparing omni with something
like huf is a much better comparison. but then maybe
both huf and omni get fixed. cycling and omni are two
completely different problems. even now cycling is not
completely stable to play, why would developers risk
tampering with it?

HH

FindingHeart8

Other--Please explain

I keep getting the impression that players who don't want
omni to not loop know this. that's why they insist on fixing
cycling if omni is fixed. cycling is a mechanic that affects
many cards. it's not a light task to fix. omni on the other
hand is a single card fix. comparing omni with something
like huf is a much better comparison. but then maybe
both huf and omni get fixed. cycling and omni are two
completely different problems. even now cycling is not
completely stable to play, why would developers risk
tampering with it?

HH

I agree with your general premise, but I'd argue that HuF isn't even as overpowered as Omni, because HuF can't be fetched and can't combo to fetch itself.  So while I will not argue HuF is incredibly powerful, it is quite finite.

That being said, I'm overall against nerfing in general, and I don't want to deprive the lucky few of their precious Omni (no I don't own it lol).  I still think it should be good, just not 10 minute-turn-loop-to-victory good.

And before anyone asks, yes I've lost multiple matches to Omni loops, it seems like a 50/50 everytime I face Kiora or Dovin whether I'll be facing that combo or not.  One comes to mind where it was my lvl 60 Ajani, at full health, with a 90somethin/90somethin flying defender and 2 other buff creatures.  Opponent had ~30 life, no supports, no creatures.  Dropped Omni and looped until they'd dropped 10+ Emrakuls and gave them haste.  Yeah I lost that turn.

Matthew

Nerf cycling and Omniscience

FindingHeart8 said:

I agree with your general premise, but I'd argue that HuF isn't even as overpowered as Omni, because HuF can't be fetched and can't combo to fetch itself.  So while I will not argue HuF is incredibly powerful, it is quite finite.

HUF can 100% be fetched. Here is a non-comprehensive list of some of the cards that can do just that:

Pyromancer's Goggles (This one even makes it free!)
Rashmi
Bring to Light (Also makes it free!)
Panharmonicon
Glint-Nest Crane
Tower Geist
Pieces of the Puzzle (it was a combo of this, HUF, Omni, and a few other spells that cost me one of the only two games I've lost to Omni btw)

Theros

Other--Please explain

@wereotter reducing cost to 0 when having 6 cards in hand would make it truly OP. What about losing 1 shield for each card cycled (eg. swarm intelligence)?
This would force people to make multiple setups and get more involved.
I'm more in favor of restrictions than nerf.

Cycling as a mechanic and the cards in that set are not the issue. It comes down to 3 specific cards that some people find problematic: NP, faith and drake.
Doubling/increasing the cost of Omni is not a nerf considering what it does

Gilesclone

Nerf Omniscience

MADAFAKA said:

@wereotter reducing cost to 0 when having 6 cards in hand would make it truly OP. What about losing 1 shield for each card cycled (eg. swarm intelligence)?
This would force people to make multiple setups and get more involved.
I'm more in favor of restrictions than nerf.

Cycling as a mechanic and the cards in that set are not the issue. It comes down to 3 specific cards that some people find problematic: NP, faith and drake.
Doubling/increasing the cost of Omni is not a nerf considering what it does

You can probably add Shefet Monitor to that list.  But even if you don’t, the chance of screwing up a 3 card fix is too high for my tastes.

FindingHeart8

Other--Please explain

Matthew said:

FindingHeart8 said:

I agree with your general premise, but I'd argue that HuF isn't even as overpowered as Omni, because HuF can't be fetched and can't combo to fetch itself.  So while I will not argue HuF is incredibly powerful, it is quite finite.

HUF can 100% be fetched. Here is a non-comprehensive list of some of the cards that can do just that:

Pyromancer's Goggles (This one even makes it free!)
Rashmi
Bring to Light (Also makes it free!)
Panharmonicon
Glint-Nest Crane
Tower Geist
Pieces of the Puzzle (it was a combo of this, HUF, Omni, and a few other spells that cost me one of the only two games I've lost to Omni btw)

Good list, a clarification to my post...when I said fetch I was implying with a free cast.  A fetch but unable to play would be a barrier to a continuous-loop-combo, I thought this was obvious.

Tower Geist and Glint-Nest Crane?  Now you're just naming general fetch cards.  Yes...cards that can fetch any card can fetch HuF.  The point here is Omni paired with Whir of Invention (or that white support that brings back supports from graveyard) can bring another Omni straight to the field, which'll combo until it gets another one, and so on and so on.  HuF at its worst (beyond DtG, which is very powerful but finite) can fetch Bring to Light, and if the next card (10% chance) is HuF then yes it will combo again, but at best if it fetched 3 more Bring to Lights, you'd look at a small chance of pulling it off a second time (don't make me open my old math textbook on the probability of three 10%s lol).

wereotter

Other--Please explain

MADAFAKA said:

@wereotter reducing cost to 0 when having 6 cards in hand would make it truly OP. What about losing 1 shield for each card cycled (eg. swarm intelligence)?
This would force people to make multiple setups and get more involved.
I'm more in favor of restrictions than nerf.

Cycling as a mechanic and the cards in that set are not the issue. It comes down to 3 specific cards that some people find problematic: NP, faith and drake.
Doubling/increasing the cost of Omni is not a nerf considering what it does

I don't think it would when you consider it with the other changes, and the part I forgot to mention that cards like New Perspectives would no longer provide cards that have cycling with mana, just change them to cycling 0 if you have 6+ cards in hand. Basically you can cycle all you want, but you won't get any benefit from the cards needed to abuse it if you don't have other cards in hand that already have mana to be drained. And, if you don't have any mana on your cards in hand, too bad. Drake Haven gives you nothing.

I think if that were the case, it makes it so cycling does what it was intended to do, help you filter through your deck to get to the pieces you need, and it cements the other cards as rewards to playing cycling smart.

ZW2007-

Nerf cycling and Omniscience

FindingHeart8 said:

Matthew said:

FindingHeart8 said:

I agree with your general premise, but I'd argue that HuF isn't even as overpowered as Omni, because HuF can't be fetched and can't combo to fetch itself.  So while I will not argue HuF is incredibly powerful, it is quite finite.

HUF can 100% be fetched. Here is a non-comprehensive list of some of the cards that can do just that:

Pyromancer's Goggles (This one even makes it free!)
Rashmi
Bring to Light (Also makes it free!)
Panharmonicon
Glint-Nest Crane
Tower Geist
Pieces of the Puzzle (it was a combo of this, HUF, Omni, and a few other spells that cost me one of the only two games I've lost to Omni btw)

Good list, a clarification to my post...when I said fetch I was implying with a free cast.  A fetch but unable to play would be a barrier to a continuous-loop-combo, I thought this was obvious.

Tower Geist and Glint-Nest Crane?  Now you're just naming general fetch cards.  Yes...cards that can fetch any card can fetch HuF.  The point here is Omni paired with Whir of Invention (or that white support that brings back supports from graveyard) can bring another Omni straight to the field, which'll combo until it gets another one, and so on and so on.  HuF at its worst (beyond DtG, which is very powerful but finite) can fetch Bring to Light, and if the next card (10% chance) is HuF then yes it will combo again, but at best if it fetched 3 more Bring to Lights, you'd look at a small chance of pulling it off a second time (don't make me open my old math textbook on the probability of three 10%s lol).

Pyro Goggles fetching and casting HUF for free is enough to win the game immediately in some cases. Does that make it any better or worse than Omni? I don't really know. I also don't know what an infinite/continuous loop combo Omni deck looks like. Everyone talks about it but I have yet to see someone post a list.

Kinesia

Nerf cycling and Omniscience

There isn't one single Omni deck. That's the problem. With HUF people can use whatever high cost spells they happen to have and pick whichever Reddish walker works best for _them_. Same for Omni. People can pick whatever win condition they like out of what they have. If you can't look at your _own_ collection and work out how you could win with Omni then you are probably being deliberately obtuse for the sake of argument.

Mainloop25

Nerf Omniscience

Discard/IWill decks give my Omni decks the most trouble.

Gilesclone

Nerf Omniscience

I agree with those who would also nerf HUF and Deploy.  Those cards are just as broken as Omniscience.

Theros

Other--Please explain

Gilesclone said:

I agree with those who would also nerf HUF and Deploy.  Those cards are just as broken as Omniscience.

Deploy is legacy, it does not need to be changed. Legacy is fair game and to be expected. Otherwise there are dozens of other cards in legacy  that the community was glad to have them restricted to legacy.
HUF in standard is not broken. Omni  is more powerful than HUF in standard.

Rishkar is apparently flying under the radar. As a platinum player, I lose more to rishkar than HUF tbh. In fact, i'm more afraid of rishkar than Omniscience in standard specifically.

Whenever I play legacy I don't mind losing to them olivias, pig, deploy, Omni and whatnot. Those are thing I expect. I'm sure i'm not the only one who  like the challenge, play with powerful cards and push the game to its limits. Legacy has many  loops and devastating combos AI can already perform.

I don't think nerfting left and right is a good idea.

Coilbox

Other--Please explain

People here complaining about combos that involve a few different cards, in which you need to be lucky enough to pull them all from boosters, then draw them in game and put them in play together... awh dear...

Yeah, lets just nerf everything, make the most balanced game of all times. Eliminate all supports, all spells and mechanics and leave only creatures 1/1 costing 6 mana, and 2/2 costing 9 mana.

There you go, the most balanced and boring as FECK game ever seen.

TomB

Other--Please explain

I say don't nerf either. I hate the nerf stick.

Good move, btw, making the poll without this as an option...

andrewvanmarle

@bken1234
@Brigby


Please can someone closed this topic, enough is enough, we allready have a discussion on omniscience and one on huf and one on cycling, the boards really do not benefit from another topic on the same subject with the same people saying the same things.

Thanks