new idea for PVP

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Comments

  • Daiches
    Daiches Posts: 1,252 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited February 2018
    NotBAMF said:
    Daiches said:
    NotBAMF said:
    Net points for placement rewards.

    Gross points for progression rewards.

    It's the easiest fix in the world, and it's utterly baffling to me that they don't do it. 
    Because that would make dumping and sniping the most effective strategy by far and no one would use a shield anymore until the last hour or so.
    Yeah, I have no idea what "dumping and sniping" is, but it can't be any worse than the current system.

    You think people would use dramatically fewer shields? I don't know. To fight for T10, you'd still have to shield early and often. There would be fewer people shielding JUST to reach progress and then get knocked back down, but I don't imagine shielding would fall off dramatically. By-and-large, most of the people who bother shielding up to reach 900 are the same kind of people who also want good placement. 
    And that, good sir, is why you have no place commenting on PVP. Learn how it works now first before you come in with ideas that won't work.
    And that goes for other commenters too. If you don't understand how PVP works yet, you should delve into it and you could come out with an entirely different opinion on how PVP is broken or boring or whatever, because trust those that know. Pvp is rather fun when you know what you're doing.

    EDIT: this was the civil response..
  • smkspy
    smkspy Posts: 2,024 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited February 2018
    acescracked said:
    smkspy said:
    ZeroKarma said:
    Daiches said:
    So you just hit a few seals while out and are immune to sniping?

    No. It means that you get some people up high at the beginning of an event, and then they can just be perpetual targets for the whole shard to raise their scores on. 

    If there were a "milestone" every 200 points where you can't lose points, or even at the end of progression, I think you would see a couple of things. 

    1) People who can climb to 1200 without using a shield would simply never use one

    2) Scores would go insane. Imagine someone gets to 3000 points and their score can't drop below that. The whole shard can just climb off that guy to astronomical point totals. Milestones that hold every 200 points would fairly quickly result in 10,000 point event scores using <gulp> no shields. 

    3) It would be hilarious.

    Or stop milestones after after 1000. They'd still have to shield eventually. Other than the 15cp, the main gripe has always been the knock down of points from 800 to 900. Getting the 4 star easier is the main focus for all but the top tier players. 
    Just have it so when you open MPQ you automatically get the 4* cover. Ultimate goal of these PvP ideas is to make sure the 4* cannot be missed in anyway.
    Brilliant idea!!! Super smart of you to think of it like that. Maybe you make a poll about it...
  • Daiches
    Daiches Posts: 1,252 Chairperson of the Boards
    NotBAMF said:
    Daiches said:
    NotBAMF said:
    Daiches said:
    NotBAMF said:
    Net points for placement rewards.

    Gross points for progression rewards.

    It's the easiest fix in the world, and it's utterly baffling to me that they don't do it. 
    Because that would make dumping and sniping the most effective strategy by far and no one would use a shield anymore until the last hour or so.
    Yeah, I have no idea what "dumping and sniping" is, but it can't be any worse than the current system.

    You think people would use dramatically fewer shields? I don't know. To fight for T10, you'd still have to shield early and often. There would be fewer people shielding JUST to reach progress and then get knocked back down, but I don't imagine shielding would fall off dramatically. By-and-large, most of the people who bother shielding up to reach 900 are the same kind of people who also want good placement. 
    And that, good sir, is why you have no place commenting on PVP. Learn how it works now first before you come in with ideas that won't work.
    And that goes for other commenters too. If you don't understand how PVP works yet, you should delve into it and you could come out with an entirely different opinion on how PVP is broken or boring or whatever, because trust those that know. Pvp is rather fun when you know what you're doing.
    You are working on assumptions that everyone who doesn't enjoy points-based PVP with progression loss is someone who just flails hopelessly at the night and has no idea what they are doing. It's not always the case.

    I "get" PVP. I play more PVP than I do PVE. As it stands, I enjoy PVP more than I do PVE. And when it comes to PVP, I do somewhat well at it. I've never personally tried to earn the 1200 points reward, but when I want the 900 points cover, I get it. I am at ~8000 points on the season currently. I don't think it's an impossible system to grasp. I don't think it's some fantasy prize that is out of reach. When I want 900 points, I shield hop, and I get it. So don't make assumptions about what others do or don't know about PVP just because I don't have a MPQ dictionary in front of me. 

    That said, I don't LIKE the system. Just because I CAN do it does not mean I enjoy it. I don't feel the need to thoroughly explain myself, but what it boils down to is that I find current PVP to be too stressful and too rigid. Like I said... I can do it (and I do like it more than PVE currently), but it absolutely has problems.

    What's more, there is a huge amount of the player base that hates current PVP, and as someone capable of seeing beyond my own front door, I empathize with them. I find it awful that they see PVP as unenjoyable or too tedious or too complex. That's silly for  match-3 cell phone game. They should be able to enjoy the game at their pace and not be locked out of basic PROGRESS rewards because of it. Placement? Sure. Progress? No, that's silly. Why would anyone WANT other players to be unhappy?

    I personally enjoyed the wins-based season we had, but I'm not calling for a return to that because I saw that another chunk of the player base also hated that. Again... beyond my own front door. 

    I'm just saying that MPQ should institute a PVP system that makes the largest amount of its players happy as possible. That's just common sense. Maybe you think Net/Gross points isn't that system; that's fair! I think it'd be great and is, at worst, absolutely worth a shot. But I appreciate you aren't for it. I don't think MPQ should settle on a system that a lot of folks hate, though. That's not healthy for the game, and it sucks for the players. This shouldn't be an "Us vs Them" thing where one side HAS to win. It's way past time they compromise somehow and try to please as many of the players as possible, that's all I think. 
    This wasn't a general assumption. This was a direct call out to you stating that you do not understand how current pvp works. And a proposal for you to first get to know how it works, so that you can make an informed opinion on the matter. 
    Yet you prefer to flag and misdirect my comment into something that it isn't, so that you can go on a diatribe. 
    All I'm saying is try to understand and learn the current system and why people enjoy it instead of trying to tear down something you don't understand or want to understand apparently.

  • Daiches
    Daiches Posts: 1,252 Chairperson of the Boards
    Spudgutter said:
    TetsujinOni said:

    Until you have enough experience in the system to at least understand the difference between a late climb versus hostiles versus front running, or dump-and-sniping versus enforcing, and how a group of coordinated unshielded players can disrupt the ability to queue 'similar' rosters to your own at all....

    You don't have any business trying to rewrite the way the system works, because you don't yet know how the system works.
    i won't defend their ideas, because i don't 100% agree with them, but what really bugs me is this argument that you and others seem to have, right out of gatekeepinng 101.  

    You don't understand it, so you can't comment on it

    I've never flown a helicopter, but if i see one in a tree, i know that person isn't doing it right.  Not a perfect analogy, but the principle is the same.  

    The condescension from those that "have figured it out" does not help the cause either.  Daiches probably wasn't flagged for what he said, but HOW he said it.  Your version is a little more civil, but that doesn't make it right.

    Here is what we know:  some people like pvp as it is.  I will start with that premise, acknowledging your side first, even though my second point is rarely recognized by what seems to be the majority of the first crowd: some people don't like pvp the way it is.

    With those two points established, we can look at why this thread and others are created.  Some people wish it was better for them.  And there is nothing wrong with that.
    While wishing to improve pvp for everyone is a noble goal, to assess what needs to be changed or fixed you also need to see what does work . This comes from understanding how the current system works.
    If you are not willing to figure out the intricacies that make the current system fun and compelling, how can you propose a better one?

    Can the current system be improved? Definitely.
    Does it need to hand out freebies because progression in PVE sets expectations of low hanging fruit? No. Progression in PVP is worth more than placement rewards.
    Can the progression system be changed? Yes. Hybrid points/win was a good example for instance of a suggestion with minimum impact to the metagame, but that won't be implemented because of bean counters likely saying too many rewards are going out.

    It's a very tough nut to crack. And no one has all the answers. But at least make sure you've got all the questions first.

  • cameronsch
    cameronsch Posts: 30 Just Dropped In
    I have a roster, heavy in 3&4* champs, no 5* champs. At that, none of my 5*'s have been leveled at all. Yet, they find me to be appropriate competition for a team of maxed out 5*'s. There is barely a chance I can hope to defeat them. I think that is an issue to address. 
  • killerkoala
    killerkoala Posts: 1,185 Chairperson of the Boards
    best scenario would be either points or win get you progression. and also once you get point progression you can't get lower than it, so 1200 would be the bottom max progression without losing points.  but devs would never work to make life easier for everyone.
  • CharlieCroker
    CharlieCroker Posts: 254 Mover and Shaker
    edited February 2018
    Spudgutter said:
    Daiches said:
    Spudgutter said:
    TetsujinOni said:

    Until you have enough experience in the system to at least understand the difference between a late climb versus hostiles versus front running, or dump-and-sniping versus enforcing, and how a group of coordinated unshielded players can disrupt the ability to queue 'similar' rosters to your own at all....

    You don't have any business trying to rewrite the way the system works, because you don't yet know how the system works.
    i won't defend their ideas, because i don't 100% agree with them, but what really bugs me is this argument that you and others seem to have, right out of gatekeepinng 101.  

    You don't understand it, so you can't comment on it

    I've never flown a helicopter, but if i see one in a tree, i know that person isn't doing it right.  Not a perfect analogy, but the principle is the same.  

    The condescension from those that "have figured it out" does not help the cause either.  Daiches probably wasn't flagged for what he said, but HOW he said it.  Your version is a little more civil, but that doesn't make it right.

    Here is what we know:  some people like pvp as it is.  I will start with that premise, acknowledging your side first, even though my second point is rarely recognized by what seems to be the majority of the first crowd: some people don't like pvp the way it is.

    With those two points established, we can look at why this thread and others are created.  Some people wish it was better for them.  And there is nothing wrong with that.
    While wishing to improve pvp for everyone is a noble goal, to assess what needs to be changed or fixed you also need to see what does work . This comes from understanding how the current system works.
    If you are not willing to figure out the intricacies that make the current system fun and compelling, how can you propose a better one?

    Can the current system be improved? Definitely.
    Does it need to hand out freebies because progression in PVE sets expectations of low hanging fruit? No. Progression in PVP is worth more than placement rewards.
    Can the progression system be changed? Yes. Hybrid points/win was a good example for instance of a suggestion with minimum impact to the metagame, but that won't be implemented because of bean counters likely saying too many rewards are going out.

    It's a very tough nut to crack. And no one has all the answers. But at least make sure you've got all the questions first.

    Lastly, and most annoyingly, the notion of freebies. It was brought up earlier in the thread as well, and it cracks me up that people who know how to play high end pvp, with grilling and battlechats, can say, without a hint of irony, that these newer players just want their rewards easier.  People lay out easy wins for others prior to shielding, communicate to others to help artificially inflate the scores, and reach max progression with the minimum amount of work.  Who wants the rewards just handed to them? 
    This just demonstrates the lack of understanding which Daiches was, by his standards, quite diplomatically trying to highlight as being an issue here and in other threads.

    For example, did you know in that in the shards where people are routinely scoring 3k or higher, people can't generally queue grills from 0.  I remember having a straight climb to that score a few months back, and I didn't get a single grill until around 2700.  That was a lot of A-teams I grinded through and a lot of time and healthpacks spent.

    Nowadays I generally shoot for 1200 (if that) and its rare I catch a single grill, whether I'm using a battlechat or not, before I've reached or got very close to my target score.

    I mostly enjoy the current system but can also see it needs refining.  However before you tear things down, you need to understand what works and what doesn't, and also understand why the things do/don't work.  Preferably without the use of pointless analogies.

    A partial fix I'd personally like to see is progression targets tailored to clearance levels.  The devs should be able to identify scores most players at a given CL can hit and cap progression rewards with more compression if necessary.  For example it's redundant having a 1200 progression reward for players in SCL1-4.

  • Spudgutter
    Spudgutter Posts: 743 Critical Contributor
    Spudgutter said:
    i won't defend their ideas, because i don't 100% agree with them

    Some people wish it was better for them.  And there is nothing wrong with that.

    Quoting myself from earlier in the thread because of relevance.  Not defending ideas because i agree with them.  Just disagree with the fact that the system cannot be criticized .

    CharlieCroker said:
    Spudgutter said:
    Daiches said:
    Spudgutter said:
    TetsujinOni said:

    Until you have enough experience in the system to at least understand the difference between a late climb versus hostiles versus front running, or dump-and-sniping versus enforcing, and how a group of coordinated unshielded players can disrupt the ability to queue 'similar' rosters to your own at all....

    You don't have any business trying to rewrite the way the system works, because you don't yet know how the system works.
    i won't defend their ideas, because i don't 100% agree with them, but what really bugs me is this argument that you and others seem to have, right out of gatekeepinng 101.  

    You don't understand it, so you can't comment on it

    I've never flown a helicopter, but if i see one in a tree, i know that person isn't doing it right.  Not a perfect analogy, but the principle is the same.  

    The condescension from those that "have figured it out" does not help the cause either.  Daiches probably wasn't flagged for what he said, but HOW he said it.  Your version is a little more civil, but that doesn't make it right.

    Here is what we know:  some people like pvp as it is.  I will start with that premise, acknowledging your side first, even though my second point is rarely recognized by what seems to be the majority of the first crowd: some people don't like pvp the way it is.

    With those two points established, we can look at why this thread and others are created.  Some people wish it was better for them.  And there is nothing wrong with that.
    While wishing to improve pvp for everyone is a noble goal, to assess what needs to be changed or fixed you also need to see what does work . This comes from understanding how the current system works.
    If you are not willing to figure out the intricacies that make the current system fun and compelling, how can you propose a better one?

    Can the current system be improved? Definitely.
    Does it need to hand out freebies because progression in PVE sets expectations of low hanging fruit? No. Progression in PVP is worth more than placement rewards.
    Can the progression system be changed? Yes. Hybrid points/win was a good example for instance of a suggestion with minimum impact to the metagame, but that won't be implemented because of bean counters likely saying too many rewards are going out.

    It's a very tough nut to crack. And no one has all the answers. But at least make sure you've got all the questions first.

    Lastly, and most annoyingly, the notion of freebies. It was brought up earlier in the thread as well, and it cracks me up that people who know how to play high end pvp, with grilling and battlechats, can say, without a hint of irony, that these newer players just want their rewards easier.  People lay out easy wins for others prior to shielding, communicate to others to help artificially inflate the scores, and reach max progression with the minimum amount of work.  Who wants the rewards just handed to them? 
    I mostly enjoy the current system but can also see it needs refining.  However before you tear things down, you need to understand what works and what doesn't, and also understand why the things do/don't work.  Preferably without the use of pointless analogies.

    A partial fix I'd personally like to see is progression targets tailored to clearance levels.  The devs should be able to identify scores most players at a given CL can hit and cap progression rewards with more compression if necessary.  For example it's redundant having a 1200 progression reward for players in SCL1-4.

    This forum would shrivel up and die without analogies, pointless or otherwise.  

    The difference between someone who can run up to 1200 without grills or BC(myself included with you) and those that make these threads is quite vast.  That said, i also dont have a problem with the current model. But as i have said elsewhere, that doesn't stop me from understanding those that would like to see "improvements."
  • ZeroKarma
    ZeroKarma Posts: 513 Critical Contributor
    Given the tremendously disparate views that exist, I think it's reasonable to say that the answers for continued engagement in PvP at all levels of play should be different. 

    Having tried Contest of Champions, they specifically limit the events that you can play in based on your roster AND they restrict the characters that you can use as well. Perhaps this is an interesting template that on the surface should be controlled by SCL levels, but in reality isn't since SCL levels don't affect the teams that you play against, (MMR and score do) and creating a confusing experience for all involved. 

    Given that high level players want to start playing more with 4* featured characters, it would seem appropriate to create a PvP space that is 4's and 5's and nothing else. This especially makes sense since 3* are never used except as the featured or by the poor soul who scores a little more than he had expected and gets crushed as a result. 

    Existing PvP should exclude 5* altogether, which would likely make people at all levels quite happy. It can continue to use a 3* or, on occasion a 4*, as the featured character. 

    A dual system like this allows the creation of a kiddie pool of sorts as well for people that want to run 2 and 3* as training runs. The rewards should of course match the level of competition, which means that players in the 4/5* grouping would see greatly increased rewards in comparison to lower brackets. 

    So, we have a couple of problems with this, and I don't know how easy or hard it would be to fix. 

    1) Season scores would need to be split up or abolished. I think changing all of the good rewards into a season progression that actually made sense would be a good idea. After 10k there is nothing at all, and season rewards aren't all that hot. 

    2) PvP for alliances would get....tricky. I don't know that it could still work in the way that it is. It would required the devs to think of better ways to engage alliances as a whole for boss events and also for PvP

    3) It would require quite a bit of design and programming to get this done, though I imagine that all of the tools already exist such as: the standard PvP template, coding to lock out tiers of characters, etc.


  • Brigby
    Brigby ADMINISTRATORS Posts: 7,757 Site Admin
    *I would still consider the conversation constructive, however I can see tensions starting to rise, so I want to step in and provide a general reminder to keep all comments civil please. Thank you!

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