Has OML's nerf been proven bogus?

Spoit

mohio said:

madsalad said:

Punisher5784 said:

HoundofShadow said:

OML is useful with just 1 yellow cover in PvP or PvE at that point of time.

That was supposed to be the original purpose for 5*'s. When 5*s were announced, they were made to be usable with only a few covers.

https://forums.d3go.com/discussion/32577/5-star-rarity-silver-surfer-announcement-in-depth#latest

This was before Championing, CP, Bonus Heroes, etc. With the increased ways to earn 5*'s, the model changed to where you needed much more covers to be usable. OML did not fall into that category because 1 yellow was sufficient so he was nerfed, around the same time Thanos was king. You could pair OML with Thanos and not use healthpacks, so nerfing him was their best solution.

But they used a nerf cannon instead of just a bat.

If him being a problem at low coverage was a problem, they could have left his final build numbers as-is and lowered how they worked at less covers. But they did not. They did not want OML of any size saving on health packs so they gutted him to the point to where he is nigh unplayable in PVP.

I completely agree (and it was mentioned here on the forum by many long time players) that OML could have been handled much better by making his healing scale more with covers, while leaving his final version alone. That would have gotten rid of probably at least 50% of people that were using him at such low levels. Make him heal like patch and people may have chosen to leave him on the sidelines. 

I disagree about a couple other things though. Their rebalance to OML, while clearly seen as a nerf, actually served to make him slightly more powerful on offense. He wasn't the obvious tank that he was before and you couldn't just play endlessly with him using no health packs, but I continued to use him to down Thanos/BP teams for weeks after, and his cheaper yellow AOE definitely helped in that regard. Saying that "they gutted him to the point to where he is nigh unplayable in PvP" is disingenuous at best. The truth of the matter is that he was barely playable in PVP already at that point, and was mostly used by people that either didn't have any other options, or wanted the crutch of not needing health packs. He ended up getting nerfed all the way from mid tier, to lower-mid tier, didn't really come close to the nerf cannon you mention in your post. 

Just my opinion on the matter. 

So basically, the same exact situation as the pre-nerfed spidey?

carrion_pigeons

Healthpack sales are the default conspiracy theory motivation behind every change ever.  Ask yourself if you really want to live in a world where OML and Thanos could tap for eternity. A nerf was strictly necessary once lots of people started getting Thanos to a usable level, and if it was a choice between nerfing OML or nerfing Thanos, obviously they were going to pick OML because he's older. 

It's it about healthpacks? Sure, in the sense that allowing the game to turn completely 1-dimensional by making the fastest team immune to damage would make the game less engaging. Is it about *selling* healthpacks, though? I kinda doubt it: the odds of them losing more revenue over healthpacks than over having a ****, boring, 1-team endgame with infinite sustainability in pve seems pretty unlikely to me.

tl; dr if you don't want to tap for 24 hours per sub, be happy OML was nerfed.

Bowgentle

carrion pigeons said:

Healthpack sales are the default conspiracy theory motivation behind every change ever.  Ask yourself if you really want to live in a world where OML and Thanos could tap for eternity.

Not much different from DD Thanos tapping for eternity, really.

Polares

OML was nerfed for the wrong reasons, and he should have never been nerfed in the first place. He was nerfed simply because he had the best heal in the game. Period. That and 5's match damage made him immensely useful for 2 and 3 players, but he was never too powerful, which is the reason any particular char should be nerfed. He was also used a lot by 4 players with 5 or 6 covers, again just for the heal.

Instead of addressing that 2 and 3 players should have never been allowed to win 5 chars in the first place, they nerfed a char that was already not even in top5 power ratings of 5 players. 

Nowadays we have DD that is basically in the same situation as OML was, he is immensely useful for 2 and 3 players once you get one yellow cover. He is not as useful for 4 players as now there are so many 4 chars in the 300+ cover range that a 5-6 cover 5 is not as useful as it used to be back then.

Again, OML should have NEVER been nerfed, if anything he should have been buffed! (Do anybody use him at all other than for easy rounds in PvP together with Thanos?)


PS: I could accept the way his yellow was changed, as it makes sense for the char, but then red and black should have been buffed, specially red. Probably also made the transformation easier to accomplish.

DAZ0273

From an at the time lower tier player perspective:

OML yellow definitely allowed 3* teams to survive against much better teams - at the time I had him with 2 yellow I would run OML/Champ Thor/Champ IM40 and OML would soak up the damage whilst the other 2 got on with AP generation and then attacks and he still hit hard for match damage. It wasn't uncommon for him to outheal the damage the AI was causing round after round and you just threw him in next match, he would carry you. If you needed your OML to have a breather, you played a few low level PvE clears and voila - he was back up to full health in no time. I don't have a 5* DD so can't comment on him but Cloak & Dagger passive yellow heal boosted will give an idea for any player who never got to use OML yellow.

He wasn't invicible as his health was quite low for a 5* but there wasn't a single other character at that time who was so useful to lower tier players. At that level where your heroes have low health pools and so surviving in PvP for more than maybe even one match without healthpacks was a gamechanger. It let you play PvP and PvE.

His nerf to yellow did change the way he could be used by lower tier players as he just couldn't keep up absorbing everything any more, I can't comment on what it meant for those with high level OML though.

Jonny1Punch

Polares said:

OML was nerfed for the wrong reasons, and he should have never been nerfed in the first place. He was nerfed simply because he had the best heal in the game. Period. That and 5's match damage made him immensely useful for 2 and 3 players, but he was never too powerful, which is the reason any particular char should be nerfed. He was also used a lot by 4 players with 5 or 6 covers, again just for the heal.

Instead of addressing that 2 and 3 players should have never been allowed to win 5 chars in the first place, they nerfed a char that was already not even in top5 power ratings of 5 players. 

Nowadays we have DD that is basically in the same situation as OML was, he is immensely useful for 2 and 3 players once you get one yellow cover. He is not as useful for 4 players as now there are so many 4 chars in the 300+ cover range that a 5-6 cover 5 is not as useful as it used to be back then.

Again, OML should have NEVER been nerfed, if anything he should have been buffed! (Do anybody use him at all other than for easy rounds in PvP together with Thanos?)


PS: I could accept the way his yellow was changed, as it makes sense for the char, but then red and black should have been buffed, specially red. Probably also made the transformation easier to accomplish.

Very well written, Polares. I agree completely 

Jarvind

HoundofShadow said:

Jarvind said:

I was always curious as to who is actually buying health packs. The only time I ever get extra health packs is when I get them from a taco token, and when I do it's like "ew I wanted an actual reward."

I assume it's mostly newer players who don't have deep rosters - the same reason I assume every other team in SHIELD sim in my 3* days was Patch/Daken/Loki - but I'd be curious to know for sure. Not that I ever will.

I would love to meet this team composition in SHIELD sim. All of them have less than 8000hp
 I'm still in 3* lands and the most common characters I met are: IM40, 1-2 covers 5 stars team, Dr. Strange, KK. 

Back when there were only a handful of 4*s and 5*s didn't exist yet, it was much more viable. You could grind forever because Patch and Daken heal, and any damage to Loki could be mitigated by using his black to convert enemy strikes from Patch to shields. And because you were dealing with other 3*s and 270-or-less 4*s, throwing down Patch green was more or less game over within a few turns. Now, yeah, 5*s can just match them down in a few turns, so it's fairly useless.

When OML was the new hotness, I used him with X23 and Daken, which worked fine for infinite grinding until championing came along - a champed Daken tanks purple over a low-champed X23, which left her only able to heal on green matches and kind of screwed the whole thing. I've got her at 320ish now so it'd probably work again, but Gambit breaking everything makes it unnecessary.

LifeofAgony

This was the official reasoning behind his nerf

Old Man Logan, as one of our first 5-stars and one of our first characters with multiple sets of powers, is stronger and significantly more useful than most other options for one’s team, even when he’s at low covers. Over 10% of all battles won include an Old Man Logan on the player’s team. This is higher than the win or play rate of any other character in the game even when those characters are Powered-Up. We believe that his ubiquity and power is reducing options for team composition - Old Man Logan is significantly better even than other 5-stars at low covers, and he’s pushing out otherwise viable 4-star and 5-star options because he warrants a permanent place on the team.

Take from that what you will.

Bowgentle

Lol.
Yep you can totally not replace OML with Gambit there.

Warbringa

Yeah I use R&G all the time in PvE, for probably 95% of matches along with Gamora and insert required or third hero (usually Medusa if I have the choice).  I think that the health pack issue was part of the decision but at the same time I think it was an over reaction based on the fact that OML was the most prevalent 5* out there at the time, and one of the better ones just because of his regeneration utility if you had two or three yellow covers.  For any roster, his unbelievable regeneration was very useful but he wasn't a game breaker (like ahem a fellow X-Men cajun we all know).  Newer 5* have made him less valuable. In today's 5* meta, even if he went back to his pre-nerf form, I don't think he would sniff top 5, maybe even top 10.  I will give players credit because even back when the nerf happened, most 5* players pointed this out that he wasn't really a top tier 5* even at that time.  

Daredevil217

Warbringa said:

Yeah I use R&G all the time in PvE, for probably 95% of matches along with Gamora and insert required or third hero (usually Medusa if I have the choice).  I think that the health pack issue was part of the decision but at the same time I think it was an over reaction based on the fact that OML was the most prevalent 5* out there at the time, and one of the better ones just because of his regeneration utility if you had two or three yellow covers.  For any roster, his unbelievable regeneration was very useful but he wasn't a game breaker (like ahem a fellow X-Men cajun we all know).  Newer 5* have made him less valuable. In today's 5* meta, even if he went back to his pre-nerf form, I don't think he would sniff top 5, maybe even top 10.  I will give players credit because even back when the nerf happened, most 5* players pointed this out that he wasn't really a top tier 5* even at that time.  

I’m solidly entrenched in the 4* tier (which are Grocket’s core users) and only use them for the three easy nodes in PVE and all my seed teams in lightning rounds. That’s it. Otherwise it’s whatever boosted 4s have true heal for climbs and whoever my fastest boosted 4s are for the final push and for PVE clears. 

JarvisJackrabbit

Pr0spect0r said:

not even much of a sacrifice, i came home from work around 7p, ate my dinner and tapped til 12p and while watching twitch streams then went to bed. it was just easy mindless tapping with some entertainment in the background

Wow, man, tapping from 7:00 in the evening until noon the following day. When did you go to sleep? #tantrictapping

Pr0spect0r

JarvisJackrabbit said:

Pr0spect0r said:

not even much of a sacrifice, i came home from work around 7p, ate my dinner and tapped til 12p and while watching twitch streams then went to bed. it was just easy mindless tapping with some entertainment in the background

Wow, man, tapping from 7:00 in the evening until noon the following day. When do you find time to sleep? #tantrictapping

nah not that crazy, 7 to midnight. i think i wrote the wrong time in the original post haha, sorry for the confusion

jredd

not really related to the nerf, but still oml related so might as well drop this here: does anyone else notice that oml's red strike tiles are consistently the most ill-placed special tiles?  i don't think i'm exaggerating to say that they are put in a place where they are matched away about 80% of the time within 1-3 moves. 

no other character seems to have this issue.