Has OML's nerf been proven bogus?

Dormammu

I know, I know, this is an old scar to be re-opening at this point, but this question has been eating at me a little.

When OML was nerfed we were given some usage statistics by the development team to justify the nerf. Basically, they stated that he was being used in a certain percentage of all matches (in both PvP as well as PvE) and that percentage was too high, meaning (of course) that OML was overpowered and needed to be knocked down a peg. I don't even remember the percentage and I'm far too lazy to go back and look it up now. But a lot of people thought that reason was nonsense and the real reasoning behind the nerf was to increase health pack sales.

I wasn't one of the people who jumped on the conspiracy-theory wagon. The truth is, OML was ubiquitous. Even if a player was nowhere near the 5-star tier of play, all they needed to do was luck out and get a single yellow OML cover and he'd be a permanent fixture in their rotation. The guy was everywhere in PvP SHIELD sim. The nerf certainly corrected that in a hurry.

But now I'm wondering if the conspiracy theorists were indeed spot-on accurate, because 4-star Rocket & Groot are even more ubiquitous than OML ever was for 4-star (and lower) players. They are present in 95% of the teams I see in the SHIELD sim and 75% of the teams I see in other PvP events. I have to guess that they're use in PvE is equally heavy.

If usage is an indicator, R&G should have been nerfed re-balanced a loooong time ago. But they don't have a negative impact on health pack sales. In fact, they probably increase them due to the fact that you can't find anyone else to fight in the SHIELD sim.

So I ask: does this prove the reasoning given for OML's nerf was nothing but a sham?

Daiches

Well yeah, DUH. We all know it was due to OML yellow impacting healthpack sales too much.
That said, no, R&G4 isn't used as much as an OML with even just a yellow cover. It only seems that way due to the level and meta you currently play at.

HoundofShadow

OML is useful with just 1 yellow cover in PvP or PvE at that point of time.

To do a fair comparison and to play the devil's advocate, try using R&G with 1 cover in your team and see if R&G can be as effective in PvP.

If R&G usage with only one cover is as high as OML in PvP, then you might expect a change.

Sandmaker

It find it weird that people expect design decisions to remain constant forever. 

This is generally not true for most online games.

It's been well over half a year. Whatever guidelines the developers use for deciding if something is or is not acceptable for a character has probably changed twice over.

That doesn't mean their original decision was a "sham." It just means that their views on the subject has changed. Sometimes it's for the better, sometimes for the worst. But it's well within their prerogative to do so without having their integrity questioned. 

madsalad

Replace R&G with Gambit and you're golden.

The OML nerf reasoning was bogus and they completely GUTTED him to ensure that nonsense would stop (health back savings).

Here we are and Gambit is more powerful than OML ever was but he requires at least some health packs to keep going.

Punisher5784

HoundofShadow said:

OML is useful with just 1 yellow cover in PvP or PvE at that point of time.

That was supposed to be the original purpose for 5*'s. When 5*s were announced, they were made to be usable with only a few covers.

https://forums.d3go.com/discussion/32577/5-star-rarity-silver-surfer-announcement-in-depth#latest

This was before Championing, CP, Bonus Heroes, etc. With the increased ways to earn 5*'s, the model changed to where you needed much more covers to be usable. OML did not fall into that category because 1 yellow was sufficient so he was nerfed, around the same time Thanos was king. You could pair OML with Thanos and not use healthpacks, so nerfing him was their best solution.

madsalad

Punisher5784 said:

HoundofShadow said:

OML is useful with just 1 yellow cover in PvP or PvE at that point of time.

That was supposed to be the original purpose for 5*'s. When 5*s were announced, they were made to be usable with only a few covers.

https://forums.d3go.com/discussion/32577/5-star-rarity-silver-surfer-announcement-in-depth#latest

This was before Championing, CP, Bonus Heroes, etc. With the increased ways to earn 5*'s, the model changed to where you needed much more covers to be usable. OML did not fall into that category because 1 yellow was sufficient so he was nerfed, around the same time Thanos was king. You could pair OML with Thanos and not use healthpacks, so nerfing him was their best solution.

But they used a nerf cannon instead of just a bat.

If him being a problem at low coverage was a problem, they could have left his final build numbers as-is and lowered how they worked at less covers. But they did not. They did not want OML of any size saving on health packs so they gutted him to the point to where he is nigh unplayable in PVP.

HoundofShadow

Where did you guys get the idea that it affects healthpack sales? And, does healthpack sales contribute a lot to their revenues? I thought most players are more interested in HP sales rather than healthpack. 

1 healthpack takes 36 min to recover. After 6 hours, you get 10 healthpack max. With the right team, you might use 3 healthpack every couple of hour.  I don't think most players spend more than 6 hours on the game per day unless they are hardcore gamers. Most people have work or school and they need to sleep as well. Not to mention social life.

In the other healthpack thread, there are people with thousands or hundreds of healthpacks.

Pr0spect0r

HoundofShadow said:

Where did you guys get the idea that it affects healthpack sales? And, does healthpack sales contribute a lot to their revenues? I thought most players are more interested in HP sales rather than healthpack. 

1 healthpack takes 36 min to recover. After 6 hours, you get 10 healthpack max. With the right team, you might use 3 healthpack every couple of hour.  I don't think most players spend more than 6 hours on the game per day unless they are hardcore gamers. Most people have work or school and they need to sleep as well. Not to mention social life.

In the other healthpack thread, there are people with thousands or hundreds of healthpacks.

but for any given cover or token pack awarded for any given event they can blow through hundreds of health packs very easily.

madsalad

HoundofShadow said:

Where did you guys get the idea that it affects healthpack sales? And, does healthpack sales contribute a lot to their revenues? I thought most players are more interested in HP sales rather than healthpack. 

1 healthpack takes 36 min to recover. After 6 hours, you get 10 healthpack max. With the right team, you might use 3 healthpack every couple of hour.  I don't think most players spend more than 6 hours on the game per day unless they are hardcore gamers. Most people have work or school and they need to sleep as well. Not to mention social life.

In the other healthpack thread, there are people with thousands or hundreds of healthpacks.

Insert <you must be new here> meme.

lol

If you used OML as a 3rd in every battle, that was essentially one person you didn't have to heal. Almost ever. I have a champed OML (I think he was only 12 covers at time of nerf) and I crutched hard with him.  I never bought health packs (with HP, since you were saying about HP sales.  HP goes to health pack sales; one funds the other).

I would PVP with OML and Phx all the time. I could grind away a lot, and then step into a PVE to heal up OML and come back to PVP. His health regen was much stronger.

And, yes, this game is being played by people for more than 6 hours a day.  Go read some of the PVE threads concerning "tapping". 

HoundofShadow

Yes, indeed I am new. I guess that happens at the higher level. I did what you did with my Daken and Wolverine as well. But after a while I stopped doing it because it can get quite tedious and disruptive.

I read about the tapping issue as well. I guess those group of players are competitive and willing to make some sacrifice to tap continously to win the top prize. 

Jarvind

I was always curious as to who is actually buying health packs. The only time I ever get extra health packs is when I get them from a taco token, and when I do it's like "ew I wanted an actual reward."

I assume it's mostly newer players who don't have deep rosters - the same reason I assume every other team in SHIELD sim in my 3* days was Patch/Daken/Loki - but I'd be curious to know for sure. Not that I ever will.

Pr0spect0r

HoundofShadow said:

Yes, indeed I am new. I guess that happens at the higher level. I read about the tapping issue as well. I guess those group of players are competitive and willing to make some sacrifice to tap continously to win the top prize. 

not even much of a sacrifice, i came home from work around 7p, ate my dinner and tapped til 12 midnight(edit) and while watching twitch streams then went to bed. it was just easy mindless tapping with some entertainment in the background

madsalad

Pr0spect0r said:

HoundofShadow said:

Yes, indeed I am new. I guess that happens at the higher level. I read about the tapping issue as well. I guess those group of players are competitive and willing to make some sacrifice to tap continously to win the top prize. 

not even much of a sacrifice, i came home from work around 7p, ate my dinner and tapped til 12p and while watching twitch streams then went to bed. it was just easy mindless tapping with some entertainment in the background

I can't even man. 5 hours of on and off tapping? That's even too much for me. I can't bring myself to tap at all.  I just look at PVE as resource gathering now and PVP as The Show. Only time I try for any placement in PVE is new release time and even then I'll try to bracket snipe. But to each their own.

HoundofShadow

Jarvind said:

I was always curious as to who is actually buying health packs. The only time I ever get extra health packs is when I get them from a taco token, and when I do it's like "ew I wanted an actual reward."

I assume it's mostly newer players who don't have deep rosters - the same reason I assume every other team in SHIELD sim in my 3* days was Patch/Daken/Loki - but I'd be curious to know for sure. Not that I ever will.

I would love to meet this team composition in SHIELD sim. All of them have less than 8000hp
 I'm still in 3* lands and the most common characters I met are: IM40, 1-2 covers 5 stars team, Dr. Strange, KK. 

mohio

madsalad said:

Punisher5784 said:

HoundofShadow said:

OML is useful with just 1 yellow cover in PvP or PvE at that point of time.

That was supposed to be the original purpose for 5*'s. When 5*s were announced, they were made to be usable with only a few covers.

https://forums.d3go.com/discussion/32577/5-star-rarity-silver-surfer-announcement-in-depth#latest

This was before Championing, CP, Bonus Heroes, etc. With the increased ways to earn 5*'s, the model changed to where you needed much more covers to be usable. OML did not fall into that category because 1 yellow was sufficient so he was nerfed, around the same time Thanos was king. You could pair OML with Thanos and not use healthpacks, so nerfing him was their best solution.

But they used a nerf cannon instead of just a bat.

If him being a problem at low coverage was a problem, they could have left his final build numbers as-is and lowered how they worked at less covers. But they did not. They did not want OML of any size saving on health packs so they gutted him to the point to where he is nigh unplayable in PVP.

I completely agree (and it was mentioned here on the forum by many long time players) that OML could have been handled much better by making his healing scale more with covers, while leaving his final version alone. That would have gotten rid of probably at least 50% of people that were using him at such low levels. Make him heal like patch and people may have chosen to leave him on the sidelines. 

I disagree about a couple other things though. Their rebalance to OML, while clearly seen as a nerf, actually served to make him slightly more powerful on offense. He wasn't the obvious tank that he was before and you couldn't just play endlessly with him using no health packs, but I continued to use him to down Thanos/BP teams for weeks after, and his cheaper yellow AOE definitely helped in that regard. Saying that "they gutted him to the point to where he is nigh unplayable in PvP" is disingenuous at best. The truth of the matter is that he was barely playable in PVP already at that point, and was mostly used by people that either didn't have any other options, or wanted the crutch of not needing health packs. He ended up getting nerfed all the way from mid tier, to lower-mid tier, didn't really come close to the nerf cannon you mention in your post. 

Just my opinion on the matter. 

Dormammu

HoundofShadow said:

OML is useful with just 1 yellow cover in PvP or PvE at that point of time.

To do a fair comparison and to play the devil's advocate, try using R&G with 1 cover in your team and see if R&G can be as effective in PvP.

If R&G usage with only one cover is as high as OML in PvP, then you might expect a change.

It's a lot easier to get R&G covers than it was/is to get OML. Sure, a 1-cover R&G is next to useless, but that hasn't stopped them from taking over a high percentage of PvP nodes for 3-star and 4-star players. The fact that they rode the 'latest-12' train through most of the period when vaulting was a thing helped make max-covered R&Gs even more common. 

CharlieCroker

Jarvind said:

I was always curious as to who is actually buying health packs. The only time I ever get extra health packs is when I get them from a taco token, and when I do it's like "ew I wanted an actual reward."

I assume it's mostly newer players who don't have deep rosters - the same reason I assume every other team in SHIELD sim in my 3* days was Patch/Daken/Loki - but I'd be curious to know for sure. Not that I ever will.

I just climbed from 0-1200 in one hour in PVP, primarily using Gambolt but also threw in Thanos/Gambit, Daredevil/Gambit and Surfer/Gambit for a few matches.  All 10 healthpacks gone, so if I want to hop soon I'll likely need to buy 5 (or run a different team that'll attract more hits).  May also need packs for PVE later in the evening.

I used to play in S4 using Panthos and have on more than one occasion climbed to 3000 in one session and bought healthpacks multiple times (maybe 5x5).  However I didn't have to buy multiple shields, so balances out a little.

I now save up Tacos before a PvP climb but sometimes, like with LT's, you just run bad with RNG and get all iso/covers rather than the healthpacks you were looking for.

Pr0spect0r

madsalad said:'ll

Pr0spect0r said:

HoundofShadow said:

Yes, indeed I am new. I guess that happens at the higher level. I read about the tapping issue as well. I guess those group of players are competitive and willing to make some sacrifice to tap continously to win the top prize. 

not even much of a sacrifice, i came home from work around 7p, ate my dinner and tapped til 12p and while watching twitch streams then went to bed. it was just easy mindless tapping with some entertainment in the background

I can't even man. 5 hours of on and off tapping? That's even too much for me. I can't bring myself to tap at all.  I just look at PVE as resource gathering now and PVP as The Show. Only time I try for any placement in PVE is new release time and even then I'll try to bracket snipe. But to each their own.

Surprisingly it was pretty good with iso rewards and such so after a while. I was getting closer to champing invisible woman with the bits and pieces of iso I was getting

Orion

For this and other arguments that "XXXX is used just as much as OML was back in the day".  No, they aren't.  Let's break it down:

R&G is used a lot.  But he's only being used by 4* players and the 5* transitioners with their single 5*.

2* players - don't have R&G or won't use him with a single cover or two
3* players - again, don't have R&G or won't use him with a single cover or two
4* players - will use him IF he's covered enough and have a well covered Guardian to go with him
5* transitioners - will use him along with Gamora/Medusa
5* players - he's good, but he's not replacing a team of 5*s, even if boosted

Meanwhile, in OML's heyday:

2* players - if OML had a single yellow cover, he was used in EVERY fight
3* players - if OML had a single yellow cover, he was used in EVERY fight
4* players - a level 360 or so OML was better than any 4* and used in EVERY fight
5* transitioners - since there weren't as many 5*s around, highly covered OMLs were everywhere
5* players - OML/Phoenix was used as much as Grockett/Gamora is now

So OML was used by people at every stage of the game.  Grockett is used by people that have him champed, unless they're 5* players.  It's not even close.  Since the vast majority of players aren't ones that are in the 4* world, there's no way that Grockett is being used in 10% of all fights.  Is he used in 90% of 4* fights?  Yeah, probably, and that should be addressed.  Maybe a 4* counter to strike tiles, a la Black-Suit Spidey.

Qubort

Dormammu said:

I know, I know, this is an old scar to be re-opening at this point, but this question has been eating at me a little.

When OML was nerfed we were given some usage statistics by the development team to justify the nerf. Basically, they stated that he was being used in a certain percentage of all matches (in both PvP as well as PvE) and that percentage was too high, meaning (of course) that OML was overpowered and needed to be knocked down a peg. I don't even remember the percentage and I'm far too lazy to go back and look it up now. But a lot of people thought that reason was nonsense and the real reasoning behind the nerf was to increase health pack sales.

I wasn't one of the people who jumped on the conspiracy-theory wagon. The truth is, OML was ubiquitous. Even if a player was nowhere near the 5-star tier of play, all they needed to do was luck out and get a single yellow OML cover and he'd be a permanent fixture in their rotation. The guy was everywhere in PvP SHIELD sim. The nerf certainly corrected that in a hurry.

But now I'm wondering if the conspiracy theorists were indeed spot-on accurate, because 4-star Rocket & Groot are even more ubiquitous than OML ever was for 4-star (and lower) players. They are present in 95% of the teams I see in the SHIELD sim and 75% of the teams I see in other PvP events. I have to guess that they're use in PvE is equally heavy.

If usage is an indicator, R&G should have been nerfed re-balanced a loooong time ago. But they don't have a negative impact on health pack sales. In fact, they probably increase them due to the fact that you can't find anyone else to fight in the SHIELD sim.

So I ask: does this prove the reasoning given for OML's nerf was nothing but a sham?

R&G isn't in nearly that many teams. Perhaps for your MMR he is over used. But overall an unboosted R&G isn't really a deterrent.