A request regarding expressing frustation

fight4thedream

While I understand many people are dissatisfied with the announced changes to 3* and 5* Gambit, I would like ask the community to tone it down on the snark a bit. I know many of you have made good arguments and presented good ideas on how to fix Gambit and improve the top tier experience and with today's announcement you feel all your feedback has been ignored. I can understand why you would feel that way.

But what exactly do you hope to accomplish by engaging in snark and making a mockery of the development process? 

Yes, I get that you need to vent. But the first time, in a very long time, we had a dev provide information into the development process. And while admittedly it was not ideal as they showed no interest in engaging the community in discussion on the issue, I look around the GD and see an outburst of mock posts requesting "nerfs" or "buffs". If this is the response, can you blame them?

There is nothing wrong with wanting to campaign for an adjustment to the game. I get that Gambit has made the game less fun for a significant amount of high end players. I also understand that the 3* Gambat nerf has also negatively impacted the experience of other players. But if you really want change, focus your frustration in a constructive way. Gather relevant information, comparison charts of character stats, win-loss ratios and what not. Anything that helps illustrate what it is you have a problem with. While obviously there is no guarantee the dev team will share your view, the better constructed your argument, the more persuasive it is.

And before you fall into a cynical mindset and think it's a waste of time, I want to remind you that just recently the PvP progression win system was reverted and I like to believe that a good part of that was the campaign to gather data and testimony, especially the hard work and dedication of @The rockett.

I apologize if I'm coming across high-handed. That is not my intention. I just don't understand the purpose of engaging in snark if you want to see improvements made to the game. To be honest, it seems rather counter-productive. But maybe that's just me.

Anywhoo, I have a PvE grind calling! Later!ε=ε=ε=ε=ε=└|∵|┐

LifeofAgony

Being that the proposed fix is essentially a joke to the player base and involves a solution that literally NO ONE asked for (adding more power to his passive), how can you blame the masses for being angry and thinking “well, we made a 20 page thread that doesn’t have all the snark and other negativity the OP is claiming.  Maybe if we try asking for the opposite, we’ll actually get it since that’s what happened.”

This is called learned behavior.  If being civil and thoughful in providing solutions to fixing a broken toon leads to him being more broken than before, then how can you stand in judgement of those wanting to try a different tactic.

Orion

It's not just you, it is counter-productive.

The devs tried a solution to a problem most people agree exists.  They didn't go as far as most would like, but I'd at least like to see how the new Gambit plays before I say the nerf was a failure.  Don't get me wrong, I think the new 5Gambit might be better now than he was before, but I still want to play him and see.  But all of these buff/nerf posts are just irritating and do nothing to help the situation.  And flaming a dev for coming on here and explaining the thought process makes it that much more likely that they won't do that again.  Not helpful.

Borstock

fight4thedream said:

While I understand many people are dissatisfied with the announced changes to 3* and 5* Gambit, I would like ask the community to tone it down on the snark a bit....

If this works, can we send you to Washington?

Shintok17

I do agree with you on the snark remarks and sarcastic threads about Gambit Buffs and Nerfs. They are a little misleading and don't give Devs any incentive to consider them.

One thing you said that kind of does not compute with me is this: " I want to remind you that just recently the PvP progression win system was reverted and I like to believe that a good part of that was the campaign to gather data and testimony, especially the hard work and dedication of @The rockett " Come on let's be real here and call it how it is. They got rid of the win based PVP progression system, because they lost sales of HP from shields, which is their only source of income from this part of the game. I for one played more matches of PVP in the win based system and reached 40 Wins every PVP that season, full progression in the Shield Simulator and Season rewards. All without using a shield and saving my HP for roster slots or vaults. It might sound like a grind playing more to reach 40 wins, but it was worth it since I got GUARANTEED rewards from progression instead of almost getting there and losing double the points I just gained from a loss of an attack.

99% of the players who complained about the win based system did so, because of the loss of CP in progression rewards and the high amount of wins to get those rewards, specially for high leveled players who fight harder teams and matches take way longer due to the high health of characters. I think if we would of had the CP in progression and a hybrid system where rewards would be given for example 1,200 or 40 wins then it would of been better received. Either way it would of been shut down because of the money loss.

Wumpushunter

Sometimes thier changes (Not gambit) are so game breaking ridiculous that the only rational reaction is frustration.

Shintok17

Wumpushunter said:

Sometimes thier changes (Not gambit) are so game breaking ridiculous that the only rational reaction is frustration.

I agree with you on that one. 3* Gambit got nerfed to the point where he is useless. The decision to make him attack his team mates boggles my mind. Where did that come from? We don't need anymore Sentry like characters.

Anon

They need to switch 3* and 5* Gambits Black powers. The 3* version got gutted while the 5* version barely got a slap on the wrist. If anything, it should be the other way around.

broll

Borstock said:

fight4thedream said:

While I understand many people are dissatisfied with the announced changes to 3* and 5* Gambit, I would like ask the community to tone it down on the snark a bit....

If this works, can we send you to Washington?

That's some punishment...

Landale

I am very disappointed with the change to 3* Gambit.  I didn't care that you wanted to remove the GamBatt aspect - that was fine...heck, I was one of the first people to post that it seemed like a bug at first.  I'm glad they finally removed it (even though I just christened a shiny new GamBatt myself).

But, the 3* version Black cover is awful now.  Charged tiles can either help or hurt, so it's not necessarily a boon to lay those down, and then to top it off firing the power damages the player's team?  It better do a whole lot of damage to the targeted enemy to make up for that.

I was using a championed 3* version of him for fun in the SHIELD Simulator and low-level PvE fights, but now I can't see myself ever using him again except when he's an essential.  Why didn't they just make the 3* version the same as the 5* version, except without the "destroy enemy AP" part?  

I'll still try it out when the changes go live, but I'm not very hopeful.

I guess I just don't understand the severe alteration, and the dev's post did not shed light on that particular decision.

Edit: For what it's worth, I agree that people shouldn't be yelling at the developers.  The snark doesn't help, nor does attacking the developers.  

alaeth

Very well thought out post, thank you.

I think passion of the game spills into the forums, couple that with the anonymity of "the internet", and we tend to express ourselves with more... vigor... than we would use face to face.

If you haven't ever watched it, watch "The Guild" with Felica Day.  Season 6 deals with exactly this type of behavior... a game designer - crippled by reading too much feedback from the community, and not wanting to upset them, they delay the release of a major update.

Yes, change can be bad, and yes, I'm also upset that Gambit got nerfed.

But the realist in me sees just how over-powered the original design was.

I for one, appreciate the incremental approach to fixing Gambit 5*... perhaps there are more changes directly to that character in the future, or perhaps there are other counters to his abilities (new characters, other buffs, etc)

Colognoisseur

I understand and agree with the request to tone down the snark. It doesn't become constructive and allows the Demiurge team to avoid the forum because of it.

My frustration comes from the same place it always does with these changes; their complete lack of understanding of the way the game is played at the higher levels.

I again offer the solution for them to talk to a few of the high end players and run a change like this by them. Then like every one has pointed out the realization that the 2ap random destruction could have been tested to see if it was the problem we suspect it is.

This has always been the source of my frustration their inability to talk to just a few players who play the game at level they are unfamiliar with to understand how the change will affect things. But as every other time I make this suggestion I know it will fall on deaf ears because they really do not want to hear from us.

Marine8394

Great post, and well said. For me this falls under the category, again; Careful what you wish for. Also it's almost as if we were lead to this point. Introduce said character to play like this, knowing said character will not be liked. Oh you know likey? Fine! THIS! is what he was really supposed to be! Have fun. This is what you wanted. 
What kills me is the 3* version takes the brunt, but the 5* is still better than decent. Hmmmm conspiracy me says. Oh progression suppression for lower rosters, but keep high end happy. That's just a random feel I get. But that's the cynical me. For me the change just means 3* sits with Sentry in the corner. Not happy, but that is this to me has always been the way it is. What we want is never going to be exactly what we get. 

Dormammu

What's important here is that they got Rogue right.

JHawkInc

Colognoisseur said:

I again offer the solution for them to talk to a few of the high end players and run a change like this by them. Then like every one has pointed out the realization that the 2ap random destruction could have been tested to see if it was the problem we suspect it is.

It's hard to be on board with both accusing the devs of not doing any testing, and agreeing that the players know better about something they haven't even gotten a chance to test yet.

Colognoisseur

JHawkInc said:

Colognoisseur said:

I again offer the solution for them to talk to a few of the high end players and run a change like this by them. Then like every one has pointed out the realization that the 2ap random destruction could have been tested to see if it was the problem we suspect it is.

It's hard to be on board with both accusing the devs of not doing any testing, and agreeing that the players know better about something they haven't even gotten a chance to test yet.

They admitted last year that they didn't test Boss Rush at a high level; so they are on the record at having a habit of ignoring it.

As players we have a habit of pointing things out too late because when we learn about it they can't do anything about it. As an example had they mentioned the recent SHIELD Training where there was no token available to get Main Event Hulk so you could play it. I saw the issue. I commented to Anthony on Discord. I was dismissed with a cut and paste that did not address the issue that they would come to admit was a mistake after it went live.

This is where frustration builds and if this was a single data point it would be much easier to shrug my shoulders but its not. Plus there is an arrogance which tints the way they treat us when they do respond to something we see ahead of it being an issue.

I have come to accept it but it doesn't mean it isn't a consistent issue.

LifeofAgony

If there is a member of d3 or Demi who has a roster comparable to any of the high level players, I’ll defer to them.

They play test in the sandbox, which just doesn’t give you the same information as being on the frontline.  And unless there’s a dev whale out there, I would love to hear their first hand experience.  Otherwise, I’m confident many players know more about the game than those making these decisions.

BoyWonder1914

fight4thedream said:

And while admittedly it was not ideal as they showed no interest in engaging the community in discussion on the issue, I look around the GD and see an outburst of mock posts requesting "nerfs" or "buffs". If this is the response, can you blame them?

I wholeheartedly agree with you that "snark" is not constructive whatsoever and gets nothing done, but I'm sorry, I can't accept that they choose not to engage the community over fear of snark. Any company that deals with the public in any capacity is going to have customers and stakeholders that just ALWAYS have negative things to say. That's just business. At the same time, you'll have stakeholders that are always positive, and stakeholders that are always offering constructive suggestions on improvement because they love your product. In any business, your stakeholders are going to come in all types and deviations of thinking. It's THEIR responsibility as a business to put their big boy slacks on and sift out the information that is pertinent to their ability to move forward in the best way to keep those stakeholders happy. Companies send out customer satisfaction surveys because they legitimately want to hear what they are doing well and what they are doing wrong. They're not going to just stop requesting feedback because they know that they are going to get some bad reviews no matter what they do. It only makes them look worse to not be willing to engage with their stakeholders in active discussion about the game yet to continue to be perfectly happy to take our money. Even worse, they don't want to engage, but they have no problem absolutely throwing Brigby to the wolves when they've got some bad news to share.  

Why create forums, discord chats, and openly encourage feedback if they're scared of a little snark? Snark is merely a symptom of dissatisfaction,  it's the dissatisfaction that should be worrying them. Dissatisfaction should show them that they're not doing something right, which should be worth dissecting to any sensible business. Being scared to get your feelings hurt doesn't fly when there's clearly plenty more people that are still willing to give you their money. 

Beer40

BoyWonder1914 said:

fight4thedream said:

And while admittedly it was not ideal as they showed no interest in engaging the community in discussion on the issue, I look around the GD and see an outburst of mock posts requesting "nerfs" or "buffs". If this is the response, can you blame them?

Companies send out customer satisfaction surveys because they legitimately want to hear what they are doing well and what they are doing wrong. They're not going to just stop requesting feedback because they know that they are going to get some bad reviews no matter what they do. It only makes them look worse to not be willing to engage with their stakeholders in active discussion about the game yet to continue to be perfectly happy to take our money. 

Not trying to derail the convo, but can anyone remember the last time we got one of those in-game surveys about recommending the game?

I feel like its been awhile, so maybe they are done with requesting feedback.

I think the OP has some decent sentiments that basically boil down to "do unto others..." but in fairness to the community, the people associated with the game really, really push that to the limits some times.

NotBAMF

I'm saving all my snark for when it's confirmed there is no change to PVP progression rewards.

beyonderbub

It's tough to comply with the OP when certain forumites only post pure snark.