2* Bonus Heroes

DAZ0273
DAZ0273 Posts: 10,289 Chairperson of the Boards
edited November 2017 in MPQ General Discussion

Now that XP gains have all shifted to roster building, is it maybe time to extend bonus heroes into the 2* level? Allowing players to gain covers at faster rates at this level would help farms turnover more efficiently and keep XP flowing and for those with more limited roster slots available would allow more targeted farming.

Thoughts?





2* Bonus Heroes 60 votes

Yes please - I'm all about ratcheting up that farm!
51%
brisashiCoppsWonko33sinnerjflrixmithMagicjcarrey4DaichesPunisher5784LordXberkYoikcooperbigdaddyPollozz[Deleted User]motownjunkieevade420DTrain514OldManWolvsmonsieurmojotchipley 31 votes
No thanks - this would speed up XP gain too much
8%
wymtimeBlindman13CalnexinvinsensualRayElwood 5 votes
Don't care either way - my 2* farm is already fast enough
30%
Dragon_NexuskillercoolPhumadeTiggidaHendrossArctic_OneMeanderOrionAmsha3garpenguinifficAlfje17ChattyWhackerMETT-T dependentrobertbahBrigadierbleuKillians8[Deleted User]MrKotlet 18 votes
Other
10%
DormammuStarfurysmkspybluewolfbrollTPF Alexis 6 votes
«1

Comments

  • broll
    broll Posts: 4,732 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited November 2017
    Other
    2* BHs would just further dilute the BHs and make it less likely you ever get 3* and 4* BHs from heroics....  Big no thanks.

    Remove the XP gain from all dups.
    Add ISO into other modes to compensate.

    If they want SR to be reflective of roster strength (which they said they do and I've always felt it should be) then dups don't add to roster strength and dilute the values.  Take them out.
  • DAZ0273
    DAZ0273 Posts: 10,289 Chairperson of the Boards
    Yes please - I'm all about ratcheting up that farm!
    Dormammu said:
    Absolutely not. 2-star bonus heroes would mean less 3-star and 4-star bonus heroes.
    Maybe not if you could get them from standards.
  • robertbah
    robertbah Posts: 124 Tile Toppler
    Don't care either way - my 2* farm is already fast enough
    Dormammu said:
    Absolutely not. 2-star bonus heroes would mean less 3-star and 4-star bonus heroes.
    Why? The BH is randomly occur after each draw and independent between different star levels. 
  • DAZ0273
    DAZ0273 Posts: 10,289 Chairperson of the Boards
    Yes please - I'm all about ratcheting up that farm!
    broll said:
    2* BHs would just further dilute the BHs and make it less likely you ever get 3* and 4* BHs from heroics....  Big no thanks.

    Remove the XP gain from all dups.
    Add ISO into other modes to compensate.

    If they want SR to be reflective of roster strength (which they said they do and I've always felt it should be) then dups don't add to roster strength and dilute the values.  Take them out.
    As I said above - what if you could only get them from standards and not heroics?
  • Magic
    Magic Posts: 1,199 Chairperson of the Boards
    Yes please - I'm all about ratcheting up that farm!
    I would be in favour. There were times that a 2* had to sit on the wine for 2 weeks as I was missing a cover in one color to champ. I would like that.

    Also @Dormammu - it's not how BH work. Your token is pulled - it's 2-3-4 start one (say it's a heroic). When that is determined the RNGesus checks if you get a bonus hero on top of it. In the current system he only checks if your pull is 3 or 4*. 
  • DAZ0273
    DAZ0273 Posts: 10,289 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited November 2017
    Yes please - I'm all about ratcheting up that farm!
    aesthetocyst said:
    Instead of loaded wording, how about a simple "No, this is not needed."
    The wording wasn't intended to be loaded, apologies if it comes across as such.

    Edited to add: Right I see where you are coming from now on the wording and that does sound sarcastic but in fact that was completely unintentional. I used the speed up XP gain too much thought in connection with comments from Brigby's thread where it had been posited that players were gaining XP levels in adavance of roster strength and that this could be detrimental to them.
  • broll
    broll Posts: 4,732 Chairperson of the Boards
    Other
    DAZ0273 said:
    broll said:
    2* BHs would just further dilute the BHs and make it less likely you ever get 3* and 4* BHs from heroics....  Big no thanks.

    Remove the XP gain from all dups.
    Add ISO into other modes to compensate.

    If they want SR to be reflective of roster strength (which they said they do and I've always felt it should be) then dups don't add to roster strength and dilute the values.  Take them out.
    As I said above - what if you could only get them from standards and not heroics?
    Still no.  Dup XP shouldn't count at all and is something that should be fixed.  2* acquisition rate is fine.
  • DAZ0273
    DAZ0273 Posts: 10,289 Chairperson of the Boards
    Yes please - I'm all about ratcheting up that farm!
    broll said:
    DAZ0273 said:
    broll said:
    2* BHs would just further dilute the BHs and make it less likely you ever get 3* and 4* BHs from heroics....  Big no thanks.

    Remove the XP gain from all dups.
    Add ISO into other modes to compensate.

    If they want SR to be reflective of roster strength (which they said they do and I've always felt it should be) then dups don't add to roster strength and dilute the values.  Take them out.
    As I said above - what if you could only get them from standards and not heroics?
    Still no.  Dup XP shouldn't count at all and is something that should be fixed.  2* acquisition rate is fine.
    I've seen this argument before and I'm not sure I follow. The idea that farming doesn't improve rosters seems strange as you can obtain iso and covers from doing so that you apply to improve your roster. Or is there another reason I am missing?
  • vinsensual
    vinsensual Posts: 458 Mover and Shaker
    No thanks - this would speed up XP gain too much
    I'd rather they let you buy a 2* cover for a pittance of cp.  And give the lightning rounds their old 2* drop rate as suggested earlier.  We weren't even told that the drop rate was being nerfed we sorta had to confirm with each other in the forums. 
  • Starfury
    Starfury Posts: 719 Critical Contributor
    Other
    robertbah said:
    Dormammu said:
    Absolutely not. 2-star bonus heroes would mean less 3-star and 4-star bonus heroes.
    Why? The BH is randomly occur after each draw and independent between different star levels. 


    There's a 5% chance of getting a BH from an Elite token. However, since there's only a 25% chance of getting a 3* from the token, this means that if you get a 3*, you effectively have a 20% chance of getting a 3* bonus.

    If 2* gave out BH, you'd still get only an average of 5 BH per 100 pulls, but suddenly 3/4 of the BH you got would be 2*.

    Essentially it means that you wouldn't get more BH, you just got less valuable BH.

  • Piro_plock
    Piro_plock Posts: 287 Mover and Shaker
    edited November 2017
    robertbah said:
    Dormammu said:
    Absolutely not. 2-star bonus heroes would mean less 3-star and 4-star bonus heroes.
    Why? The BH is randomly occur after each draw and independent between different star levels. 
    This isn't true when it comes to standard, elite and heroic tokens. The rule is that you should have about 5% chance of any BH when pulling a token other than standard.

    Standards have ~2% chance (1:43) of pulling a 3* and when that happens, you automatically get a BH. If you added the possibility of getting BH from a 2* pull (~12%), the devs would most likely remove the guaranteed 3* BH and substituted it with 40% chance for a BH when pulling 2* or higher (which would bring the overall BH rate from standards to about 5%).

    In elite or heroic tokens, you have 25% (~32% in heroics) chance to pull a character that's elligible for a BH (3* or higher). This means that a chance for a BH if you happened to pull a 3* or 4* is about 20% in elites and 15% in heroics. This brings the overall BH rate to 5% for single pulls.

    If 2* BH were added, you would get LESS 3* BH than you do now. This should make sense, because the number of BH should stay about the same, you would just trade some of 3*/4* covers for an additional CStorm or OBW. Yay?
  • Starfury
    Starfury Posts: 719 Critical Contributor
    Other
    aesthetocyst said:
    MPQs frequent flyer miles!
    You just made my day :D
  • DAZ0273
    DAZ0273 Posts: 10,289 Chairperson of the Boards
    Yes please - I'm all about ratcheting up that farm!
    aesthetocyst said:
    DAZ0273 said:
    I've seen this argument before and I'm not sure I follow. The idea that farming doesn't improve rosters seems strange as you can obtain iso and covers from doing so that you apply to improve your roster. Or is there another reason I am missing?
    It is a very indirect form of improvement and increasingly marginal one as a roster progresses. And yet it continually pays as though the characters were being built the first time.

    The system doesnt know the difference.

    And the truth is that, outside of farming, the change in xp triggers killed the xp flow of more advanced rosters.

    The game needs a roster strength metric to make SCLs work. So long as it is also serving as a participation rewards program (MPQs frequent flyer miles!), it fails to measure roster strength, even tho it stopped paying for most forms of participation.


    I can definitely see how the changes in XP hurt advanced roster progress.

    I'm not at a stage where I have even run through my 3* once let alone have duplicates, so I guess I am "thinking at another level" to players like you. The 3* covers gained from 2* farming is still an important element for me in roster building as it it helps drive my 3* Champs to pay out 4* covers but if you are well past that mattering much then I do see your point.
  • robertbah
    robertbah Posts: 124 Tile Toppler
    Don't care either way - my 2* farm is already fast enough
    Okay the mechanism of BH in my mind is different from both piro and starfury. Here is what I believe is correct. First, for each token draw, there is another addition 5% chance of getting BH at that star level when you get 3 or higher. Therefore, if they do put a 2* BH, the 5% chance will be independently applied after you get 2*. Therefore, if I am correct, you simply get 5% more 2* at the end. 
  • Piro_plock
    Piro_plock Posts: 287 Mover and Shaker
    robertbah said:
    Okay the mechanism of BH in my mind is different from both piro and starfury. Here is what I believe is correct. First, for each token draw, there is another addition 5% chance of getting BH at that star level when you get 3 or higher. Therefore, if they do put a 2* BH, the 5% chance will be independently applied after you get 2*. Therefore, if I am correct, you simply get 5% more 2* at the end. 
    Nope. Tracked data suggests that around 5% pulls from elites and heroics yield BH.
  • robertbah
    robertbah Posts: 124 Tile Toppler
    Don't care either way - my 2* farm is already fast enough
    Well I don’t know exactly how it works in their code. Could you elaborate more on how BH works in details? 
  • Piro_plock
    Piro_plock Posts: 287 Mover and Shaker
    edited November 2017
    https://forums.d3go.com/discussion/60255/new-feature-bonus-heroes-updated-3-1-17/p1
    Brigby said:
    *New Update* How did we arrive at 5% for single packs? Here's Anthony from Demiurge with an exclusive drop rate breakdown, using Heroic Packs as an example:
    Anthony, Demiurge wrote:
    Let's take the Heroic Pack. You have a ~71% chance to get a 2-Star, a ~23% chance to get a 3-Star and a ~6% chance to get a 4-Star. When you open a pack, you have an overall 5% chance to get a Bonus Hero. The way we get to that math is to set the chance to get a Bonus Hero per rarity that you draw. When you draw a 3-Star or 4-Star, you have roughly a 17% chance to get a Bonus Hero. When you multiply the chance to get a cover of that rarity with the chance to get a Bonus Hero, you get the [percent] chance to get a Bonus Hero from any one pull from a Heroic pack (~4% for 3-Stars and ~1% for 4-Stars).
    In other words, because 2-Stars don’t have Bonus Heroes available, the Bonus Hero drop rate is actually 17% for 3-Star and 4-Star pulls, and factoring the 2-Stars into the equation is what drops it down to 5%
    That was before odds in heroic/elite tokens changed slightly after vaulting was gone. BH mechanism stayed the same though.
  • Straycat
    Straycat Posts: 963 Critical Contributor
    Yes please - I'm all about ratcheting up that farm!
    Going back to their announcement
    Anthony, Demiurge wrote:
    Let's take the Heroic Pack. You have a ~71% chance to get a 2-Star, a ~23% chance to get a 3-Star and a ~6% chance to get a 4-Star. When you open a pack, you have an overall 5% chance to get a Bonus Hero. The way we get to that math is to set the chance to get a Bonus Hero per rarity that you draw. When you draw a 3-Star or 4-Star, you have roughly a 17% chance to get a Bonus Hero. When you multiply the chance to get a cover of that rarity with the chance to get a Bonus Hero, you get the [percent] chance to get a Bonus Hero from any one pull from a Heroic pack (~4% for 3-Stars and ~1% for 4-Stars).
    For LTs it is set at 5%, but for heroics the 5% is not set, it is derived from the combined chances of bonus hero rate,the rate of 3* and 4* from heroics, and the fact that 2*s don't have bonus heroes. So keeping the math the same and only expanding bonus rates to include 2*s, overall bonus rate should increase, and 3* bonus rate should remain the same.
    There is supposedly a 17% bonus rate for 3* and 4*. If that rate is added to 2*s, then bonus rate of heroics should jump to 17%.
    I don't know how bonus rates actually work tho. Does it roll the bonus dice independently of the token? So might I have gotten 5 bonus heroes in a row, but the token was a 2* so I never saw it? Or does it roll the bonus dice after?

    Tl;dr - I don't think it will automatically mean less 3* bonus heroes, but who knows. It won't happen anyways

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