Abilities that suck in 3* characters

Pylgrim

Thanks to simulation mode, "Day 2" we had a chance to play with a guest Loki level 167 with maxed abilities. It was a huge disappointment to discover that even at such high level (I've never bothered to level up my own [1]/[4]) his purple ability sucks horribly. After a somewhat lengthy animation, he may get 0-3 matches, and/or leaving the board set for a 4-5 match. I all the times I used that ability, I averaged around 300 damage! For a 167 level character! For that much AP spent, 1-star Storm deals around that much damage and similarly shuffles the board, with the added benefit of loading up your environment AP, which is brutal in the desert and jungle to chain into her green. And this is for a 3* character with only TWO abilities, the other of which is highly conditional and expensive as hell. Even 2* Moonstone gets a clause of dealing damage when her own highly conditional ability doesn't have anything useful to do. Not so Loki's! Why does he suck so much? I wonder if there are plans of ever fixing those or at least giving him a green ability.

Similarly, thanks to the recent The Punisher PVP event, where he was pumped, I had the chance to discover that even at level 135 his green ability still does a laughable amount of damage, between 100 and 300. Sure, he also leaves 2 powerful strike tiles. But so does 2* Wolverine's green, for cheaper, with the chance of creating many more strike tiles and dealing almost 600 damage at level 85. for a 3* character, that ability should either generate AP from the destroyed tiles, or (and?) not be randomly placed. As it is, in my experience, it will activate on a side or a corner like 80% of the times destroying very few tiles, preferably where you had your previous Green ability's strike tiles, or Black ability's counter or attack tiles.

Unknown

Pylgrim wrote:

Similarly, thanks to the recent The Punisher PVP event, where he was pumped, I had the chance to discover that even at level 135 his green ability still does a laughable amount of damage, between 100 and 300. Sure, he also leaves 2 powerful strike tiles. But so does 2* Wolverine's green, for cheaper, with the chance of creating many more strike tiles and dealing almost 600 damage at level 85. for a 3* character, that ability should either generate AP from the destroyed tiles, or (and?) not be randomly placed. As it is, in my experience, it will activate on a side or a corner like 80% of the times destroying very few tiles, preferably where you had your previous Green ability's strike tiles, or Black ability's counter or attack tiles.

Get him to 5 green covers. 3 strike tiles (not dependant by the number of red AP you have) that hit for more than wolverine. Also, the tile destruction has led to cascades more than once for me. Also, in my book, spmmable green+spammable black+higher health >> spammable green+powerful, but slow, red.

Back on topic now: useless ability? I'd say Godlike Power, from everyone's favourite underdog, Ragnarok. The only thing it succeeds in doing is annoying me. Yes, it could lead to cascades, but so does any tile destroying ability. It doesn't give back any AP, does negligible damage. I know pre-nerf Raggy was the most broken character ever, but now he's broken the other way.

Unknown

The irony here is that the Loki / Patch node in the sim is actually pretty hard for a lot of people b/c the decoy feeds black mana at a ridiculous rate to Loki. So you're practically guaranteed not to have any shield or strike tiles, which is a staple for a lot of people. And once Patch goes off, if Loki is still there, it is utterly devastating. Quite a fun node, honestly. I had to laugh when I saw Best There Is followed by a Trickery. I laughed and then I died pretty quickly, but it was already going poorly (I sent in a scouting team which looks very similar to my tanking team).

I disagree with your Punisher assessment, though I have his green at 5. Sure, it does squat for damage, but at max level drops 3x 100 strength strike tiles. That's an extra 900 initial damage from Cocktails, and for a character like OBW, that's an extra 600 damage per blue or purple match. That's nothing to laugh at and is an amazing ability. Sure it may wipe out other valuable tiles, but that just means you should plan it better. And barring anything else, if using it a second time wipes out 1 strike tile, you're still netting positive tiles.

As for abilities I will never ever use, Rag's green now tops the list, along with Black Panther's blue (unless I'm desperate or my other blue ability character is dead). And while he may be valuable in some teams' setup, I've never found Hood's black to be all that useful (I'm in a 5/1/3 build right now, not having the greatest luck getting more).

NighteyesGrisu

I don't agree with your assessment of Punisher...at max level his strike tile is 2.5 times as powerful as **-wolvie's and he always places 3 of them (regardless of how many red you have..or if there are any free red on the board). On top of that, there's a chance of starting a cascade, generating even more damage. When I use him all things added up he often does 1000+ damage...and that's not counting damage form subsequent rounds. Furthermore, his own strike tiles power up his own attack tiles.

Loki's black isn't horrible either (though not really good) because unlike with moonstone, you can actually influence its usefulness by placing hostile strike tiles...in combination with Patch, Loki's black can be quite fun (still not fun enogh to make him valid in regular games, though). As for level: both his abilities are level-independent...it doesn't matter if your loki is lvl 15 or lvl 121...so having him boosted will do nothing. The only thing that does have impact is having additional covers for his abilities.

Dormammu

GSBW's red pistols. That ability is about as useful as a third nipple.

Unknown

For Loki we have fine "buff Loki" threads with good ideas -- the way he is he is certainly mostly useless, and leveling him makes him considerably worse, those using him time to time collect the covers and keep him low level so he does not make matches at all. Trickery is actually a very good thing either with your patch or fighting bull/daken or whatever providers (except falcon where it's bugged). Just manage to keep Loki alive to the activation and it's like the "I win" button.

Punisher is great as he is, I doubt anyone would agree with you on that one. Green does not do any damage really (just from blown tiles) neither it is supposed to, it creates like 300 pts worth of really stable strike tiles that you exploit using further abilities -- if you just shoot molotov after judgement enjoy almost 1k extra dmg.

You can compare it to patch that gives substantial upstart damage on berserk with more but really fragile attack tiles -- but it costs more and gives the opponent a ton of strike tiles too making him a liability. While Punisher is safe. Except facing Loki.

Rags godlike was designed with his original form feeding ton of green. Where the "effective" cost was way under 6. With his red ruined of course it is left hanging. But it's still a good and balanced ability for that cost -- nuke 16 known tiles for 6 is okay. And Rags could be fixed just by having a 3rd ability that was kinda hinted by devs but remained in the black hole with the other stuff.

NighteyesGrisu

Not strictily an ability that sucks, but IM40's yellow is a bit of a funny case...it kinda gets worse the more you level it.

Unknown

Dormammu wrote:

GSBW's red pistols. That ability is about as useful as a third nipple.

It's pretty great at smashing strike/defense/countdown tiles. You can target two shots anywhere and you get about 1400+ in tile damage.

I would rather use her red than Hulk's red.

NighteyesGrisu wrote:

Not strictily an ability that sucks, but IM40's yellow is a bit of a funny case...it kinda gets worse the more you level it.

I kept him at 5/5/2 for so long and in a moment of weakness, I gave him a third yellow cover. I so desperately want to go back now that Lazy Cap is around.

MarvelMan

I wholeheartedly agree about Loki being **** (there was a time when he was a GOD), but Frank is better than that taste may have indicated to you. The only redeeming thing about Loki is he can offer an alternate way to spidey on how to deal with Patch....except that black is a tad expensive.

Frank, at 141, deals 250 damage (unless there are already strike tiles out), but the three strikes he puts out can be on any color making them harder to match and it is a good board shake up. Add in his cocktail and he can do some significant damage in subsequent turns. Cant tell you how many times I thought I was safe making one more match to get OBW 9 blue, or Spidey enough yellow, only to have a cascade hit. Last night, took down a 7k LT starting with a match three (had 5 strikes and 2 attacks on the board). As a tip, try to cast green before black. But most people like the direct damage of black best anyway.



Back to topic....since the Thorverine nerf I would say that Wolvies heal is pretty useless. Doesnt help that yellow is one of the least used colors.

Dormammu

Toxicadam wrote:

Dormammu wrote:

GSBW's red pistols. That ability is about as useful as a third nipple.

It's pretty great at smashing strike/defense/countdown tiles. You can target two shots anywhere and you get about 1400+ in tile damage.

It's too expensive for what it does. You can't rely on it to eliminate special tiles because they'll be popping up far faster than you can gather enough red to take them out, especially in goon fights. And looking at the damage-to-AP ratio, it's horrible.

Unknown

The problem with Loki is that he was originally designed to have a powerful purple. It was considered OP (rather quickly) and they changed it to what it is today. Then even tweaked it once more because it was even worse (if you can imagine).

So, he went from a Doom/pre-Nerf Rags type of villain (limited abilities, but powerful) to a third wheel support character. Problem is that none of his support powers are terribly effective, or if they are effective they aren't cheap. He really needs a third ability that packs some punch or a passive that can be annoying.

Dormammu wrote:

It's too expensive for what it does. You can't rely on it to eliminate special tiles because they'll be popping up far faster than you can gather enough red to take them out, especially in goon fights. And looking at the damage-to-AP ratio, it's horrible.

It's a 'late-match' ability. Like Hood/Lazy Cap yellow or IM40's red/blue. You're not going to build your attack around it, but it's going to save you from damage late in the match as you are mopping up the final enemies.

Unknown

NighteyesGrisu wrote:

Not strictily an ability that sucks, but IM40's yellow is a bit of a funny case...it kinda gets worse the more you level it.

Well, I thought it would be unfair to post Bagman with such abilities...

Recharge's usability is dependent on your AP needs, it certainly gets better if you want it to feed the additional colors, I keep mine on 3 that looks like a good balance and proved itself all the way in heroics. The ability would be awesome with option to activate for any of its levels.

Unknown

Toxicadam wrote:

I would rather use her red than Hulk's red.

Yes, Hulk's red should at the least cause all-opponent-team damage with many greens -- probably even so normally. It didn't look that bad back in time but with coming of LT, LC and others degraded completely and should be buffed to a sensible level.

Unknown

MarvelMan wrote:

Back to topic....since the Thorverine nerf I would say that Wolvies heal is pretty useless. Doesnt help that yellow is one of the least used colors.

I thought so only reading it but in practice it saved him too many times and screwed me some times in fights too. If it being under half was not a requirement it would be on par with the old one at lev3. Can't recall what more levels do.

Phaserhawk

pasa_ wrote:

MarvelMan wrote:

Back to topic....since the Thorverine nerf I would say that Wolvies heal is pretty useless. Doesnt help that yellow is one of the least used colors.

I thought so only reading it but in practice it saved him too many times and screwed me some times in fights too. If it being under half was not a requirement it would be on par with the old one at lev3. Can't recall what more levels do.

This is why I've been reluctant to change my 3/5/5 Patch to 4/5/4 or 5/5/3, I know the bonus strike tiles are huge, but that constant heal is powerful, and if you build Wolvie/Patch comps correctly a 3/5/5 build can be a huge annoyance.

Unknown

Lokis Black - There have been many times that I've got enough AP to use his black, but it isn't able to be used because there are no special enemy tiles on the board.

Black Widow Grey Suit Red - While expensive is not useless and does around 1100 damage(with 3 Red, I think). Its useful to rid of enemy special tiles and can rearrange the board pretty nicely.

Daredevil - Has anyone really used him?

Unknown

Phaserhawk wrote:

pasa_ wrote:

MarvelMan wrote:

Back to topic....since the Thorverine nerf I would say that Wolvies heal is pretty useless. Doesnt help that yellow is one of the least used colors.

I thought so only reading it but in practice it saved him too many times and screwed me some times in fights too. If it being under half was not a requirement it would be on par with the old one at lev3. Can't recall what more levels do.

This is why I've been reluctant to change my 3/5/5 Patch to 4/5/4 or 5/5/3, I know the bonus strike tiles are huge, but that constant heal is powerful, and if you build Wolvie/Patch comps correctly a 3/5/5 build can be a huge annoyance.

For Patch heal is quite essential as you level him all the way so he is in front even before berserk. Then he must survive a few turns with elevated damage too. For ** it is more like nice to have. And he heals like 450 pts on one strike instead of old 169ish auto -- that really can bring him back from death.

gambl0r312

"Toxicadam wrote:

[quote="NighteyesGrisu"]Not strictily an ability that sucks, but IM40's yellow is a bit of a funny case...it kinda gets worse the more you level it.

I kept him at 5/5/2 for so long and in a moment of weakness, I gave him a third yellow cover. I so desperately want to go back now that Lazy Cap is around.[/quote]


THIS. SO MUCH THIS!

I did it the same way, planning to level IM40 to 141 for the Hit points, Green character synergy etc....still at 117

why do they make it suck to Level up certain covers? Now wishing they'd have a way to let us REMOVE certain cover levels/ or covers from certain characters

Unknown

gambl0r312 wrote:

"Toxicadam wrote:

[quote="NighteyesGrisu"]Not strictily an ability that sucks, but IM40's yellow is a bit of a funny case...it kinda gets worse the more you level it.

I kept him at 5/5/2 for so long and in a moment of weakness, I gave him a third yellow cover. I so desperately want to go back now that Lazy Cap is around.

THIS. SO MUCH THIS!

I did it the same way, planning to level IM40 to 141 for the Hit points, Green character synergy etc....still at 117

why do they make it suck to Level up certain covers? Now wishing they'd have a way to let us REMOVE certain cover levels/ or covers from certain characters

I think level 3 Recharge would be less painful if it cost 9 instead of 10 for easier matching, but honestly IM40 just sucks in every possible way. I'd nominate all his abilities for this thread.

IM40's gimmick is supposed to be generating lots of AP and spending lots of AP to do huge damage, he just does both very badly. Unibeam at max level is 3559 damage to one target for 13 AP (273 dmg/AP), but potentially drains 10 AP from your other pools (reducing it up to 155 dmg/AP). It's better than most 2** abilities, but vastly inferior otherwise. His blue is more efficient (400 dmg/AP at max level) but is absurdly hard to fuel.

Especially compared to LazyThor (whose green is 14 AP, 3856 damage to target, 1927 to others, all told 550/AP), IM40 is just insulting in every way. LazyThor generates tiles of colors he needs (doing damage in the process instead of stunning himself) and does more damage per AP with no downside.

If recharge were really cheap, it would be broken for fueling other characters.

I still use him, just because he was the first character I was able to get to 141, but the more characters I play the more it drives home how inferior he is.

Edit: formatting.

Unknown

IM40 is one of the oldest characters and IIRC he was standing out with 7200HP alone for really long -- up until Hulk. And kept the 2nd most HP status up until BP arrived. So he's victim to power creep on all fronts, new characters made his HP uninteresting in compare meanwhile massively increased damage output rendered him mostly obsolete.

What is really too bad, rebalancing should upgrade old things' abilities time to time to keep them viable.

NorthernPolarity

Pylgrim wrote:

Thanks to simulation mode, "Day 2" we had a chance to play with a guest Loki level 167 with maxed abilities. It was a huge disappointment to discover that even at such high level (I've never bothered to level up my own [1]/[4]) his purple ability sucks horribly. After a somewhat lengthy animation, he may get 0-3 matches, and/or leaving the board set for a 4-5 match. I all the times I used that ability, I averaged around 300 damage! For a 167 level character! For that much AP spent, 1-star Storm deals around that much damage and similarly shuffles the board, with the added benefit of loading up your environment AP, which is brutal in the desert and jungle to chain into her green. And this is for a 3* character with only TWO abilities, the other of which is highly conditional and expensive as hell. Even 2* Moonstone gets a clause of dealing damage when her own highly conditional ability doesn't have anything useful to do. Not so Loki's! Why does he suck so much? I wonder if there are plans of ever fixing those or at least giving him a green ability.

Similarly, thanks to the recent The Punisher PVP event, where he was pumped, I had the chance to discover that even at level 135 his green ability still does a laughable amount of damage, between 100 and 300. Sure, he also leaves 2 powerful strike tiles. But so does 2* Wolverine's green, for cheaper, with the chance of creating many more strike tiles and dealing almost 600 damage at level 85. for a 3* character, that ability should either generate AP from the destroyed tiles, or (and?) not be randomly placed. As it is, in my experience, it will activate on a side or a corner like 80% of the times destroying very few tiles, preferably where you had your previous Green ability's strike tiles, or Black ability's counter or attack tiles.

I think you need to change the way you evaluate skills, since your current methods don't seem correct. Quick comparison between 2* Wolvie and Punisher: Punisher deals 200 upfront damage and leaves 300 damage worth of strike tiles at level 5. Wolvie deals 600 damage and leaves 40 damage tiles per 3 red AP you have: lets say on average it's 3 tiles since 9AP seems like a reasonable number to have. This is a 180 damage difference in strike tiles, so as soon as you make two matches in the following turns, Punisher already starts to outdamage Wolverine. I'm not sure how powerful your Punisher strike tiles were, but a 5 green 141 Punisher has far superior strike tiles than Wolvie does.

You also can't compare Loki's purple to M. Storm, who has two of the most efficient abilities in the game. The point of illusions isn't to deal massive amounts of damage, it's to randomly generate cascades/ap and mix up the board in case the current board has no advantageous matches for you. That's a pretty good deal for 5 purple AP, and I think it's a perfectly reasonable ability to have, especially given how it's in a relatively underused color. The character is still underwhelming, but if he had another good ability, he would probably be playable off of that ability and purple alone.