Death of the softcappers

atomzed
atomzed Posts: 1,753 Chairperson of the Boards
in MPQ General Discussion
One of the problem I see was the existence of the softcappers. The softcappers in PVE gets to play at a lower difficulty due scaling, but the veterans players have to play at a higher difficulty while challenging for the same placement rewards. 

The recent changes to PVE has all but killed the reasons of softcappers in Pve. first, difficulty is now fixed within the SCL, meaning the time levelling your character makes more sense. Secondly, the 5* essentials means that even if the softcappers have the 5* character, they will have difficulty dealing with the 450 level enemies. 

I am glad for the change as the game now rewards genuine progression. 

Thank you D3!

what opinions do you have about the recent pve changes? 
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Comments

  • Infrared
    Infrared Posts: 240 Tile Toppler
    I do engage in a little bit of softcapping. I have 3 (soon to be 4) max covered 5* characters, with enough Iso to champ them all. When they introduced self selectable difficulty, I champed one 5*. I wanted to test the waters before going all in.

    PVE has been great. I can choose my SCL according to how much free time I have, and how interested I am in that particular event. Even before SCL9 was a thing, If I wanted a challenge I could just voluntarily refrain from using my 5*. More choice is always good. I could almost champ the rest of my eligible 5* with no regret.

    Except there is still PVP MMR. Before my first 5* champ, PVP was mostly effortless for me, yet still quite entertaining. The weekly changes in boosted 4* provided a nice variety to keep things interesting. I hardly ever saw scary enemy teams with 5* characters in them. This has changed now that I have one 5* champ, and there is less variety in opponent teams. When I go full 5* it will get worse. Will I become part of the crowd that resents the new win count progression format?

    I'm most likely going to go full 5* eventually. Sooner, if I happen to pull another cover for one of those that I already have at 13/13. But I will be losing something that I now currently enjoy.
  • Borstock
    Borstock Posts: 2,734 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited September 2017
    Yeah, I don't see why anyone who was soft-capping before would change what they're doing now. The game may have made it more difficult for them, but they were already angry they felt compelled to soft-cap in the first place. No one WANTS to soft-cap. All they've done is further upset people who were already aggravated to begin with.
  • broll
    broll Posts: 4,732 Chairperson of the Boards
    @Infrared
    So you want PvE to be a challenge but PvP to be effortless?  It's a general rule in video games that PvP is always more difficult than PvE because people are smarter then limited programmed logic of automated characters.  I think your expectations are a little unrealistic, but I guess you found a way to make it work for you...
  • Infrared
    Infrared Posts: 240 Tile Toppler
    edited September 2017
    broll said:
    @Infrared
    So you want PvE to be a challenge but PvP to be effortless? 
    Not quite. I like the option we have now to choose PVE to be either challenging or effortless. We do not have this choice in PVP. Effortless PVP is fun for me. Challenging PVP is also fun. Except for the super whales, one does not get to the 5* transition without having put in effort. It's more the monotony of facing the same teams all the time that I fear will take away from my enjoyment of the game. And I will not be able to go back to how it was before, unless I sell my hard earned 5* champs. With PVE now, if you get tired of using 5*s you can downgrade to a lower SCL and use your 4* and 3* again.
  • Calnexin
    Calnexin Posts: 1,078 Chairperson of the Boards
    I have acecdotal data from my alliance commander that the 5* rosters might get some relief with win-based progression PvP.  He's got a single 5* champ.  Under standard PvP he was usually seeing at least one champ 5* with a boosted 4*.  In the win-based events he was seeing a lot more 4* rosters.  They may be tweaking the MMR in the new format to make the "climb" (such as it would be) easier for 5* rosters.
  • broll
    broll Posts: 4,732 Chairperson of the Boards
    Infrared said:
    broll said:
    @Infrared
    So you want PvE to be a challenge but PvP to be effortless? 
    Not quite. I like the option we have now to choose PVE to be either challenging or effortless. We do not have this choice in PVP. Effortless PVP is fun for me. Challenging PVP is also fun. Except for the super whales, one does not get to the 5* transition without having put in effort. It's more the monotony of facing the same teams all the time that I fear will take away from my enjoyment of the game. And I will not be able to go back to how it was before, unless I sell my hard earned 5* champs. With PVE now, if you get tired of using 5*s you can downgrade to a lower SCL and use your 4* and 3* again.
    Ah, thanks for the clarification.  I'm actually in the same boat there.  The ability to choose your difficulty mode in PvE is great and I'd love to see that in PvE as well.  That's definitely harder to do in PvP due to the human component though.
  • bluewolf
    bluewolf Posts: 5,825 Chairperson of the Boards
    @broll   Except this PVP is not against a person. It is all AI; all that changes is which opponents you see.  And variety is the casualty of having dual champed 5's.  Yes, it is harder to fight 5's than 4's, but as a climber with 4's you will see other teams for a while.  It won't just be the boosted champed 4's.

    Calnexin said:
    I have acecdotal data from my alliance commander that the 5* rosters might get some relief with win-based progression PvP.  He's got a single 5* champ.  Under standard PvP he was usually seeing at least one champ 5* with a boosted 4*.  In the win-based events he was seeing a lot more 4* rosters.  They may be tweaking the MMR in the new format to make the "climb" (such as it would be) easier for 5* rosters.
    I do not believe the MMR was tweaked at all.  I believe win based PvP results in more people playing and playing longer, so more high score targets are out (no one shields, what's the point?).  MMR relies on both point value and roster to create opponents. If someone boosted a 3 and a 4 and climbed high at the right time to, say, 800, even a 5* champ roster might see them.  So if dual 4's are going higher than usual (and anecdotally, many people stop at 575 in other PvP, even with boosted 4 champs), their high score makes them viable opponents for a climbing 5 champ.
  • Dormammu
    Dormammu Posts: 3,531 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited September 2017
    atomzed said:
    One of the problem I see was the existence of the softcappers.
    This thread confuses me a little. Why was/is the existence of soft-capping a problem? As far as I'm concerned, the practice was a necessary one due to the games (previous) inability to manage difficulty for us in PvE.
  • broll
    broll Posts: 4,732 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited September 2017
    bluewolf said:
    @broll   Except this PVP is not against a person. It is all AI; all that changes is which opponents you see.  And variety is the casualty of having dual champed 5's.  Yes, it is harder to fight 5's than 4's, but as a climber with 4's you will see other teams for a while.  It won't just be the boosted champed 4's.
    True, but the human compenent still factors in because you've got players that know the game (in a lot of ways better than the devs) picking defensive teams that work well with the AI.  This make PvP more challenging (in general) than PvE.  I've never seen a winfinite team in PvE...
  • atomzed
    atomzed Posts: 1,753 Chairperson of the Boards
    Dormammu said:
    atomzed said:
    One of the problem I see was the existence of the softcappers.
    This thread confuses me a little. Why was/is the existence of soft-capping a problem? As far as I'm concerned, the practice was a necessary one due to the games (previous) inability to manage difficulty for us in PvE.
    Maybe you didn't think it was a problem (which is fine!). 

    It is a problem for some segments of the MPQ population because it makes a mockery of the game. Generally in games, the established practice is to continue levelling, as you build up your roster. Some parts of the games become easier, and you gain access to more difficult parts of the games with better rewards.

    Softcapping turns this upside down. People deliberately choose not to level, and the game actually becomes easier when you don't level. What's worse is that softcapping allows you access to the same rewards as those veterans who level their characters. I have many friends who are irritated with the soft capers in PVE (before the release of thanos), because they can clear pve much faster than the 4* and 5* players.  

    With the introduction of SCL scaling AND 5* essential nodes, MPQ resembles a proper game. As you levelled, the precious playing arena becomes easier (aka lower SCL level). You can now decide to step up to a higher level with better rewards. 5* essential nodes take SCL scaling further as the node rewards are substantially higher, with more CP per node and access to LT.

    @Blindman13, softcapping is generally define as keeping ALL your rosters underlevelled despite having the resources to level them. As dormannu pointed out, it's a reaction towards scaling. If you have some non-covered 5* under levelled or not levelled, that is usually not considered as softcappers. Softcappers are concerned about their levels of their highest 4 characters. 

  • Borstock
    Borstock Posts: 2,734 Chairperson of the Boards
    What Tony Foot said. He worded it well. 
  • mkmagius
    mkmagius Posts: 37 Just Dropped In
    I would like to point out that most pvps I can run to 1200 with my 5*(s) with nary a tap or worry.
  • Moon Roach
    Moon Roach Posts: 2,863 Chairperson of the Boards
    Blindman13 said:
    @Borstock  Maybe I'm confused on the definition of soft-capping. 
    I have every 4* and 5* rostered. None of the 5*s are fully covered, and I have not put ISO into any of them. I am waiting to champ all of my 4*s (or at least max level the new ones until I get enough covers) before I level any 5*s. Does that make me a soft-capper? If so, I am intentionally doing this, and I was not angry before or after these changes.
    Because my 5*s are still level 255 I know I can't compete in CL9, so I am staying in CL8.  I had to use a few health packs for the initial 4 clears on the 5* node, but I made it.  I'm happy to stay here until I am done growing my 4*s and once I start leveling my 5*s I will move up to CL9. 

    Agreed.

    I have every 5* too, and all 4* championed except Lockjaw and Yondu, and all 3* championed except Elektra.  Some of my 5* are fully covered, but none of them are above level 330.  That's almost entirely because of ISO.  I've only ever thrown ISO at 5* when there hasn't been a call for it elsewhere.

    I've got about 175k saved up, but that's ready for when and if I get covers for the 3* and 4* that aren't yet fully covered.  And for my 2* farm where I have covers dying on the vine waiting for that yellow Storm and a red or purple Hawkeye.

    My rambling point is that this game is also about managing limited resources; some choose to level and champion 5* at the expense of their 4* and under characters, some choose to level and champion the lesser characters at the expense of the 5*.  Some manage to do both, I wish I knew how :slightyjealousemoji:

  • Tseb
    Tseb Posts: 67 Match Maker
    broll said:
    @Infrared
    So you want PvE to be a challenge but PvP to be effortless?  It's a general rule in video games that PvP is always more difficult than PvE because people are smarter then limited programmed logic of automated characters.  I think your expectations are a little unrealistic, but I guess you found a way to make it work for you...
    Except that MPQ doesn't have "true" PVP since it's still the limited logic of the program that decides the moves.
  • atomzed
    atomzed Posts: 1,753 Chairperson of the Boards
    For those who don't want to champ their 5* because of their fear of PVP opponents, i think it is a valid concern. 

    but if and when they change it to a wins-based progression, then that concern is less valid. why? because you can use your boosted 4* teams to fight 5* too. As you are no longer concern about points loss, you can use a wide variety of team to tackle the 5* opponent. 

    5* opponent is really not so scary if you go in with a plan. yes, their match dmg is high, but you can find ways to work around it. 
  • acescracked
    acescracked Posts: 1,197 Chairperson of the Boards
    #SoftCappersMatter
  • Spudgutter
    Spudgutter Posts: 743 Critical Contributor
    atomzed said:

    what opinions do you have about the recent pve changes? 
    I don't mind the change, wish CL10 came out as well, and think the rewards could be a little better.  This should have been the name of your post.  The rant about soft cappers just confuses me.  

    atomzed said:

    it makes a mockery of the game. 
    No, it doesn't, that is a giant over generalization for such a small issue

    atomzed said:

    Generally in games, the established practice is to continue leveling, as you build up your roster. Some parts of the games become easier, and you gain access to more difficult parts of the games with better rewards. 
    Generally speaking, you are leveled up by the game automatically.  In MPQ, you are able to choose different CL not based on the levels of your characters, but by a completely different metric altogether.  Someone can get into CL 9 without a single champed 4*.

    atomzed said:

    People deliberately choose not to level, and the game actually becomes easier when you don't level. 
    Well, the game gives you a finite resource with which to level your characters, and choosing not to spend it is still a valid choice.  Until the game forces you to spend it, or commit it to a character in some form, then they are not doing anything game breaking.  Secondly, it's their time to spend on the game.  If they want to keep it "easier," let them.  I never prescribed to that theory, and in my own experience, the opposite was true.  Even before scaling was addressed, the number of "soft cappers" in the top 10 of a pve was few and far between.  Certainly not enough to warrant such discussion about it in this thread and others.

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