This Game Isn't Fun Anymore

daveomite

Phantron wrote:

Rajjeq wrote:

I think the simplest solution is to:

1. Clearly explain to the playerbase how scaling works.
2. Entirely reset activity-based scaling between events, or at least take it way down. There is simply no excuse for 395x3 on the unlock nodes. None.

It's supposed to reset. It just doesn't work all the time. Pretty sure reckless and I had some of the highest scaling from The Hunt (my essentials are in the 330s, every hard mission has been at 395 for a while) and my mission started out in the 100-150 range for Hard. More transparency would be good too so that we're not just trying random things and hoping something works. The system is sound but the implementation and the communication can definitely be improved. At this point I'm pretty sure personal scaling is based the amount of HP you lost, perhaps relative to your most powerful character, compared to the number of wins you have, but we really need to know what is considered as too little damage, and they also should nerf the two characters (Magneto/Spiderman) that enable winning while taking too little damage. I ran through a lot of my other teams in this tournament and I found that as long as you're not using those two, even trying to get a flawless victory on 3 goons is harder than it looks, because there's probably going to be a couple Pistols that you just can't stop without those two guys.

I agree. And though i will likely get flamed for saying the following from others, here goes. This is from my perspective.

Compare what you got in the Hunt and now Sim, we're similar. I too was getting those 395's in at least 5-6 nodes in Hunt, with the majority of the rest in the 300+ range. Now, in the Sim, all of my round 2 "easy" nodes start around 135, and hard around 177. And I haven't even played one node in either round 2 sub yet.

But you and reckless, both have 141's. I do not even have one.

No, I did not use Spidey in the Hunt until I was faced with incermountable odds of 395 nodes, I didn't really have any choice but to stun 15k plus health goons to be able to even have a chance.

My point is, and I think this is a major component to the issue, there seems to be no rhyme or reason for why some high level players are getting lower levels, or some mid range players are getting 180+ levels or greater. Those differences can make or break players overall perception of scaling, and the game.

For me, I'm not enjoying the Sim rounds at all. I'm going to do them, but not because they're fun, not even because I feel some urge to play well. I'll do it for my alliance, to hopefully help boost some of their iso and rewards.

But I'm not about to dump even more money in the game, as I've already learned what happens after buying 8 covers for Torch and Spidey toward the start of the Hunt. Just by maxing Torches red/green, and Spidey's blue, I sat there and watched my scaling skyrocket, regardless of if I used Spidey or not, and because I got my first over 100 character.

I keep hearing people say Spidey/OBW/CMags have "broken" blues, and that's why scaling is bad. Fine. Tell D3P to stop telling us they're broken, for months. FIX THEM and be done with it. Then we'll see if they are the true culprits of high scaling. I'm just tired of being fed the excuse that it's because of them, but they continue to allow these broken characters that, as they claim, cause scaling issues, but don't actually fix the problem with them.

True, I have both OBW and Spidey, but my Spidey isn't even to level 80 yet. And I just got my first CMags covers in the PvP, so I've never even used him once.

Everything has just become **** about it. Just this assumption that if you have one character over 100, then you can handle 300+ level goons is insanity. I just finished my 70th day in game. If this is what I have to look forward to in each new event... what's the point?

Rant over.

Unknown

Right now we have like this circular blame going on where everyone's mad. You got guys who face level 395 guys, guys who face level 200 guys, and guys who probably face level 30 guys (that's the only way you can possibly have a guy with a 1* roster on top of your sub bracket).

The guy facing the 395s says how come my levels are way higher than everyone else? This is messed up!

The guy facing the 200s says these guys are too hard because he doesn't have Magneto, and why on earth is some 1* roster beating him?

The 1* says the little guy can never catch a break because the 3* guys always win at the end!

Sure, in a system where everyone think he's screwed is probably balanced, but that's not very good for customer satisfication.

Unknown

This is the first time I have seen a post turn green from the positive rep given to it. I just read this threads 6 pages and 103 posts and it has been incredibly interesting to see so many players of different levels all in agreement. And the posts are not angry or impulsive - the posts are really well thought out and genuinely sad that MPQ is becoming unplayable. I hope the devs see this thread and notice that all of these users are united in our disappointment in erect chafes in the game. I hope they recognize how unusual if is to have a thread where everyone is in agreement and that no one is arguing a different opinion.

Unknown

So that's why my post turned green then lol

kensterr

Phantron wrote:

Right now we have like this circular blame going on where everyone's mad. You got guys who face level 395 guys, guys who face level 200 guys, and guys who probably face level 30 guys (that's the only way you can possibly have a guy with a 1* roster on top of your sub bracket).

The guy facing the 395s says how come my levels are way higher than everyone else? This is messed up!

The guy facing the 200s says these guys are too hard because he doesn't have Magneto, and why on earth is some 1* roster beating him?

The 1* says the little guy can never catch a break because the 3* guys always win at the end!

Sure, in a system where everyone think he's screwed is probably balanced, but that's not very good for customer satisfication.

The 1* guys should read up on NP's guide and aim for the 2* instead of gunning for 3* in every event. It makes more sense that they don't skip the 2* transition that will help them play better in PVE and PVP.

Unknown

Phantron wrote:

Right now we have like this circular blame going on where everyone's mad. You got guys who face level 395 guys, guys who face level 200 guys, and guys who probably face level 30 guys (that's the only way you can possibly have a guy with a 1* roster on top of your sub bracket).

Not really. mStorm, a buffed featured character, and an underleveled 2* can take you a long way in a sub, hitting goon battles and desert nodes, even when they're high level

Phantron wrote:

The guy facing the 395s says how come my levels are way higher than everyone else? This is messed up!

The guy facing the 200s says these guys are too hard because he doesn't have Magneto, and why on earth is some 1* roster beating him?

The 1* says the little guy can never catch a break because the 3* guys always win at the end!

Sure, in a system where everyone think he's screwed is probably balanced, but that's not very good for customer satisfication.

Just because someone's making an argument doesn't mean that argument has merit. Way more "guys facing the 200s" get high placements than 1* rosters, and 1* rosters shouldn't expect to beat 3* guys (and contrary to your argument I don't think any of them DO - their complaint is that community scaling makes the event too hard for them to compete for ANY prizes)

Unknown

Wow. A lot of interesting, well considered thoughts in here.

I've found a way to have fun playing MPQ again, which is to not give a ****. I played a little of the first round of Simulator, haven't touched the 2nd round yet, and may not play it again.

In PvP, I played Army of One for fun, enjoyed a few retal back and forths, and haven't checked in to see where I finished.

The odds are stacked so much against me (UK player = useless end times; MMR shot to hell) and to be competitive the game requires committed time at a level of madness I can't possibly subscribe to, that I've literally stopped caring to try. I will keep the game around for a while, but only use it for fun in short bursts, and resign myself to never being competitive again. When the game kicks you so hard, so often, it gets really hard to remember why you started playing in the first place.

It's fundamentally broken. I could give a **** about dev time / effort - I can see this game's shelf life rapidly decreasing on a daily basis just now because of the direction it is going in. Things need to change - and quick.

For me the problem is incredibly simple. The only method of competiting just now is by accumulating points. The game is crying out for some diversity in competition. For example, if you do have lvl 395 enemies - how about a competition to see who can beat them in the quickest time? Or with the weakest roster? Or a combination of both? If the competiton(s) and awards are diversified, it gives more opportunity for more people to get something from the game. You could still have the biggest / best rewards for point accumulation so that the people who are most committed get the rewards they deserve. But there has to be something in it for everyone - and crucially more than just one way to have fun while playing.

There are lots of possibilities.

Unknown

pandaberry6 wrote:

This is the first time I have seen a post turn green from the positive rep given to it. I just read this threads 6 pages and 103 posts and it has been incredibly interesting to see so many players of different levels all in agreement. And the posts are not angry or impulsive - the posts are really well thought out and genuinely sad that MPQ is becoming unplayable. I hope the devs see this thread and notice that all of these users are united in our disappointment in erect chafes in the game. I hope they recognize how unusual if is to have a thread where everyone is in agreement and that no one is arguing a different opinion.

Except we're not all in agreement. You need to re-read the thread.

Everything that I've seen so far leads me to the conclusion that the problems people are having is with their personal scaling. And since there exist many people who do *not* have a problem with scaling, there is evidently a "right" way to manage scaling. Looking at the forums, it's not hard to see what the rough outline of the right way is.

Unknown

Well I tend to agree with what most people have posted in this thread but the thing that REALLY annoys me about the scaling is the futility of it...

IF you are able to beat 3x lv230 bad guys consistently then you can beat 3x lv395 bad guys. The only real differences are that it takes longer (FOREVER) and if the board doesn't have plenty of the colours you need on it as you start (blue basically) then you retreat immediately, prologue heal and return to look again.

It doesn't make the game more fun (unless you're literally a masochist) and in my experience it doesn't fulfill the dev's presumed primary purpose of getting people to use (and buy) health packs. If anything I am getting less health packs with HP now (read exactly ZERO for PvE since they scaled to 395) because I now feel like they are trying to rip me off. So now i'm super careful... I simply retreat at the first hint of a problem and heal in the prologue. It takes longer, it's annoying BUT I refuse to spend money on something if it feels like a rip off.

Finally, probably my biggest issue with scaling (even though it doesn't effect me) is it is COMPLETELY UNDOCUMENTED and there's no in game warnings or guidance about it. If you don't come to the forums then how the hell do you know you NEED to take lots of damage and NEED to not grind nodes down to do remotely well in PvE. I mean who the hell would EXPECTS a game to punish you for the dual SINS of PLAYING WELL and PLAYING LOTS. It's counter-intuitive **** and one of the worst game mechanics i've ever seen in a video game.

Unknown

bonfire01 wrote:

IF you are able to beat 3x lv230 bad guys consistently then you can beat 3x lv395 bad guys.

This is actually only true if you use things like stun-lock. Otherwise, it's still possible to beat 230's. Not so much 395's.

Unknown

what about scaling the iso-prize with the levels of the foes?

Unknown

ZenBrillig wrote:

bonfire01 wrote:

IF you are able to beat 3x lv230 bad guys consistently then you can beat 3x lv395 bad guys.

This is actually only true if you use things like stun-lock. Otherwise, it's still possible to beat 230's. Not so much 395's.

Unless it's a pretty damned friendly set of bad guys then I don't think you can consistently beat 230s without stunlock. The amount of damage you'd take either means you can't do it often enough to further ramp up your MMR or you are spending a fair amount on health packs which isn't the situation most ppl are in. At that level bad guys' health is too high to deny all their overly damaging abilities while you kill them.

KingKollegah wrote:

what about scaling the iso-prize with the levels of the foes?

If fighting high level people involves taking lots of damage on the limited number of heroes you can possibly win then getting some extra ISO wouldn't balance out the drastically lower rate at which you can finish nodes. Also it won't help you if the nodes you can no longer complete AT ALL because of scaling are worth more ISO

Unknown

Everyone's so busy complaining about PvE, that almost no one is noticing the oh-so-subtle changes that have gradually snuck into PvP this week a little at a time.

Some folks are starting to identify some of the individual changes, but no one as of yet has posted about how they all connect together...

The top-tier players are oblivious to these changes, as they have already sandboxed themselves into the trap. The rest of us mid-tiers are being slowly pushed into the same trap, in which all of us will be sandboxed away permanently from the "precious" casual crowd, invisible forever to everyone outside those in the sandbox. Shouldn't take much more than a few more days at most, a week tops.

Then, once everyone is sandboxed, the final herald of the apocalypse will be played. And the most ironically glorious part of it all... the final card to be played is the one that the forum has been screaming at the devs for months to pursue.

I wonder how many veterans will continue to play the game at all once every PvP will be from 0 points onward will be against 141s with little to no board control, and potentially out of health packs by 50-100 points as massive damage is inflicted on team members by any one the overpowered gold characters recently released, if even that on a bad board/cascade wipe. After all, the game should be "fair" in comparing equivalent fights for 1* newbie rosters and 3*** end-game rosters, right?

Ready to start buying those health packs every 10 minutes as the 1* and 2**s easily blow by the veterans who will struggle to put any points on the board at all?

mohio

kensterr wrote:

The 1* guys should read up on NP's guide and aim for the 2* instead of gunning for 3* in every event. It makes more sense that they don't skip the 2* transition that will help them play better in PVE and PVP.

While I agree with this premise, the rewards nerf that happened a couple months back has made it so that it's arguable whether that one 2* cover is actually better to shoot for than possibly getting 2 3* covers. You can build up a pretty decent 2* team just from all the event tokens if you place well enough in the subs. If they brought back the 3/2/1 2* cover reward tiers (maybe only for the long PvE events?), it would probably entice those players to place in those reward ranges instead of the top.

Unknown

Lyrian wrote:

Everyone's so busy complaining about PvE, that almost no one is noticing the oh-so-subtle changes that have gradually snuck into PvP this week a little at a time.

Nothing subtle about it, they changed certain things with the MMR. You are not a prophet. This is not the apocalypse you're looking for. Move along.

Unknown

Yep i've noticed it too. My opening nodes in the Loki event are all maxed 2* teams. They have put the final nail in their coffin for me if this continues, they are just burying themselves into more trouble. I don't want to struggle getting too 200 points while been attacked left,right and center. Where is the fun in that?

"victory for 24 points, yessssss"

you have been attacked for 37 points.

It's all well and good dealing with that when your in the 600 point range and have the big hitters to contend with but NOT RIGHT AWAY.

The game is on a fast track to be deleted from my phone for good. Hearthstone is calling me.

Unknown

Level 230s are absolutely beatable without any cheap mechanisms. Even some level 395s are beatable without them. I already had 3 accidentally wins when I was trying to lose against Daken/Storm/Hulk and Hood/Commander/Daredevil, which are very strong combination of enemies and they're in the level 200 range for me, though those fights are all pretty close so if they're 50 levels higher I might not have won, though I was trying to lose so hopefully I'd do better if I wasn't trying to lose.

The Hulk is actually quite good against these guys since they can easily hit hard enough to trigger Anger even when he's level 141. The team I was trying to lose to The Hood was Punisher/Hulk/someone and I think I had 30 green before I realized I was going to win and had to start making really bad matches to not win, because I was getting an Anger every round and when you can use a Judgment every 2 rounds, that is quite devastating. Ironically I think I had to let some Tactile Deployment resolve on purpose initially because they didn't do enough damage to trigger Anger, so it might even be a little bit easier if the enemy starts out doing enough damage to trigger Anger without needing a Tactile Deployment.

daveomite

Lyrian wrote:

Everyone's so busy complaining about PvE, that almost no one is noticing the oh-so-subtle changes that have gradually snuck into PvP this week a little at a time.

Some folks are starting to identify some of the individual changes, but no one as of yet has posted about how they all connect together...

The top-tier players are oblivious to these changes, as they have already sandboxed themselves into the trap. The rest of us mid-tiers are being slowly pushed into the same trap, in which all of us will be sandboxed away permanently from the "precious" casual crowd, invisible forever to everyone outside those in the sandbox. Shouldn't take much more than a few more days at most, a week tops.

Then, once everyone is sandboxed, the final herald of the apocalypse will be played. And the most ironically glorious part of it all... the final card to be played is the one that the forum has been screaming at the devs for months to pursue.

I wonder how many veterans will continue to play the game at all once every PvP will be from 0 points onward will be against 141s with little to no board control, and potentially out of health packs by 50-100 points, if even that. After all, the game should be "fair", right? Ready to start buying those health packs every 10 minutes as the 1* and 2**s easily blow by the veterans who will struggle to put any points on the board at all?

I had literally just posted in the GoL thread about things that I notice. Most have started rearing their ugly heads in the last few PvP's.

1. Thresholds. They seem to keep changing. One minute you've got a few 1* teams in cue, then do a match, nothing but solid 85 2* now in all nodes. Go too high up, then it instantly becomes solid 141's.

2. Cycles: my main issue with the PvP's is that they only give you the same 5-6 people that you can cycle through, may times, the same people you already fought. Then to boot, in AoO, I actually had a situation where the system actually had the same exact person cued in two separate nodes. How is that even possible?

You are correct though, it seems like they are blocking us from certain players or something now. Rarely see "seed" teams. Even if I'm shield, I still come up in nodes for other players as I'm constantly getting hit the entire shield. And I don't mean all retals.

it would be nice for anyone to try to compete, which I thought D3P was trying to do with this scaling snafu to "level the playing field", which backfired.

But in PvP, I don't see any newer person, even with a maxed out 1* team, could get any higher than maybe 4-5 before encountering the "Wall". Same for the mid range group....somewhere between 750-950, unless you can magically beat maxed 141's and a 212 punisher, it's time to shield up and wait out the storm.

then those higher level players, I'm not sure what they see, but would assume mostly 141's. However, I can say that normally on a climb, I can usually make it to 800 without many retals, etc. But crossing 800 is like opening pandora's box in that I do a match, and come out to the screen telling me my team got its as handed to it 6 times by those higher level groups for -70 points.

But, if I make it past 900-950, it changes, and I start seeing 85's again. Sometimes not until after 1k though.

so, they seem to have these "pockets". You play, you only see certain people within a very select window. Higher players won't even know you exist until after out cross a certain line, let's say 800. At that point, you instantly get added to whatever "pocket" they see, and a non 141 team is certainly easier for them to beat down, than facing more walls of 141's plus boosted featured characters.

I don't blame anyone for any of that, it's just a product of the so called "system" right now. There is no "gradual" climb going up, but there are walls.

I think it would be nice if the system actually matched you up with similar/comparable rosters, instead of anything beyond this point value, you face 85's or 141's past this other point value. I know that may be easier and faster for the devs to build/maintain, but it could be better and smarter.

Unknown

SO you can win vs lv 200s with specific heroes going in full health and coming out all beaten up? Never said you couldn't but you won't be winning any PvE events blowing all your health packs after 2 or 3 nodes. To win consistently enough to ramp your MMR up to 395 you are going to be using cheap tactics and they work just as well on 395s as they do on 230s. That was the point I was making.

Also, just to point out that a system where you need a 141 hulk to get anywhere because of how well he does getting hit by overlevelled bad guys is LITERALLY no better than needing a 5 blue Spiderman to get anywhere because he can stunlock. You're just swapping 1 needed hero for another.

Also worth pointing out that the OBW effect makes scaling even more unfair on ppl with high level rosters. There's a sweet spot of levels where OBW is essentially totally overpowered but she falls off pretty hard as levels rise. So if your scaling keeps you in that sweet spot where something like Daken, Thor, OBW is still effective then you'll actually be getting easier, quicker wins than a player with higher level heroes who is stunlocking through level 200+ bad guys with Spiderman. That's part of the reason why the top of lots of people's brackets are fairly well stacked with lvl 85 or less rosters.

daveomite

TheUnwiseOne wrote:

Yep i've noticed it too. My opening nodes in the Loki event are all maxed 2* teams. They have put the final nail in their coffin for me if this continues, they are just burying themselves into more trouble. I don't want to struggle getting too 200 points while been attacked left,right and center. Where is the fun in that?

"victory for 24 points, yessssss"

you have been attacked for 37 points.

It's all well and good dealing with that when your in the 600 point range and have the big hitters to contend with but NOT RIGHT AWAY.

The game is on a fast track to be deleted from my phone for good. Hearthstone is calling me.

At this point, I think it's all just a money grab. Everything has become some new "incentive" to spend more and more...more iso to level guys to keep up, more HP for shields and Boosts, more HP for covers you never pull. Pay, or be left behind. That seems like the overarching plot line here.