RIP Kingpin: killed by nerf dart

JarvisJackrabbit

Ooh boy, I finally got around to using Fisk for my first few investigative matches since his re-work/nerf.

Ugh.

His black was my very first 4* pull, and although he hasn't been great for awhile, he's really lost a considerable amount of utility between the additional cost of his poke and the stranglehold its conditionality has placed on it. Any potential additional damage from that ability is worthless if there ceases to be a reason to use it.

I can only assume the devs were aware that his place in the 4* hierarchy had been trending downward, and tried to improve him as a result, but the methods used have only made him worse.

There is a place for 6 AP abilities in MPQ. That was what made Kingpin fun. He could have used a bump in damage for his black, at the very least, without requiring more AP or the presence of countdowns on the board.

Please pull a Carnage and fix Fisk forthwith.

Dormammu

It really makes you wonder what the developer's intentions were on Kingpin.

A. They thought Kingpin was underwhelming and tried to make him better, but failed
B. They thought Kingpin was overpowered and nerfed him

If it was reason A - they didn't do much (if any) play-testing. If it was reason B, they saw something the player base at large failed to see.

DesertTortoise

Kingpin's big problem is what's going on with the meta of the 4-star tier. On paper, his redesign is a slight bump for his black  but what power creates a ton of countdowns that you don't mind sacrificing for damage? Carol and Coulson can do so much more with allowing those countdowns to expire than Kingpin does sacrificing them for damage. His yellow is tremendous as far as damage efficiency, but it requires all of those tiles to time out to deal its damage and since they're so good on their own why would you want to spend black AP to deal less efficient damage to negate them? If someone came in that spit out countdowns like crazy, maybe ones you *wanted* to get rid of akin to Kate's black, Kingpin would probably get a bump in power by proxy. As it stands, if you had a character putting out tons of countdown tiles that Kingpin could use for his black, there's so many better ways to use a character that does that. 

Straycat

The change to black is questionable, as it goes against how they have been doing reworks. The biggest complaint, generally the single thing that brings a character to the bottom of the rankings, is if they have a useless power. Its what made Wasp, Chulk, Riri, Mordo, and Spidergwen so poorly rated before their updates. Their reworks largely went towards rectifying that issue, but instead they added a condition for Kingpins power to be useless.

It also seems to go against their strategy on giving him more of a drawback by destroying more friendly tiles. My guess is they wanted him to destroy more since he is a villain, but it doesn't explain why he can't fire it without a CD to sacrifice.

The best reworks made characters more useful and reduced their drawbacks. Kingpins does the opposite.

Jarvind

This is the first rework that wasn't explicitly a nerf that I would consider a downgrade. Shackling black to CD tiles and increasing the cost makes it sucky, even with the increased damage and AOE capability. The AOE might've been fine, if they hadn't also buffed his countdowns; the old ones would've been worth sacrificing, but these aren't. 

It seems like they just made a hasty change to an underused character without really thinking about whether it would actually improve him.

akboyce

My biggest issue is the interaction with his black and the enemy having only 1 character remaining. It takes 3 countdowns away and does LESS damage. That simply feels terrible and at absolute minimum they should make it so if he uses black and has 3+ countdowns out and the enemy has only one character left it takes 1 tile and does the increased single target damage. 

Jaedenkaal

DesertTortoise said:

 If someone came in that spit out countdowns like crazy, maybe ones you *wanted* to get rid of akin to Kate's black, Kingpin would probably get a bump in power by proxy. As it stands, if you had a character putting out tons of countdown tiles that Kingpin could use for his black, there's so many better ways to use a character that does that. 

There are a number of characters that make CDs worth removing (Looking For Trouble, Imaginaut, Jab, Jab, Cross) , but the trouble is, many of the best cost Black AP too.

I made a list in Kingpin's thread, I think, and the TLDR is: there are two types of CDs that make this power worth something.

The first is CDs that have a while-on-the-board effect, and no expiry effect. Think Small-Time Crooks, Imaginaut, Uncanny Strategist. You can use Wilson's Gambit on those when they have 1 turn remaining, without wasting the AP spent on the CD, or its effects. The trouble is, you still have to keep that other CD alive until you think its worth gambit-ing away.

The second category is CDs that are placed automatically, ideally every turn, at no AP cost to you. Entanglement, That Buzzing Sound, See The Math of It. Everyone With Me could also be good in PVE against goons (you only get 4 out max, so you were going to "lose" those anyways if the enemy fired any powers while 4 were out). The opportunity cost here is relatively low (one turn fewer effects or one turn longer for an effect) and you can use it strategically to remove a CD that's too easy to match away (or not easy enough, as the case may be).

For actually getting off that AOE, though, pretty much your only good choices (in 4* land) other than Everyone With Me are Ants! Ants! Ants! or Countdown for What?. It's still 15 AP for the whole thing (passable for the effect), but at least you can leave the tiles out for a turn or two first for some extra damage, and at 4 or 5 covers you might even have a CD or two left over.

Tiger_Wong

I think they should change it so his black takes away ENEMY CDs. 

Anon

Tiger Wong said:

I think they should change it so his black takes away ENEMY CDs. 

While that would be hilariously fun, it's also be broken in Goon nodes.

Yeah they're not difficult in general but still.

jamesh

Tiger Wong said:

I think they should change it so his black takes away ENEMY CDs. 

That kind of runs counter to narrative of his powers though: he's meant to be sending out goons to attack his enemies, and is willing to sacrifice some of those goons to achieve his goals.

This is a fine mechanic, as long as the reward for the sacrifice is worth it.  The damage needs to be high enough to justify the opportunity cost of removing the countdowns, as well as the AP it costs to cast his black.

ammenell

thx for this thread, have a cover maxed kingpin and thought about camping him

hopper1979

Just don't sell him they fixed Carnage very quickly after the outrage from that "upgrade" I am hoping for something similar or Kingpin.  It just is a bad change.  I am still kinda kicking myself for selling Carnage even though it worked out for me due to good HP buys but I would not do it again.

Milk Jugz

Well apparently I'm in the minority but..... I like his rework..... One thing with Peggy boosted also, I can spec her 5/5/3, get the most out of her red and yellow, while still having the stun and CDs blue generates. Then fire KPs black for AoE, removes Peggy's tiles but does more damage for each, than they would if let resolved, and I don't have to hope the AI doesn't match them away or wait until I can down one to fire it. Or have that cascade when I'm close to downing one and firing it, but that cascade prematurely downs the first one. I'm not hating him, I think he is more useful now...... 

mega ghost

I think he'd be perfect if they made three changes:

1) Remove the condition of requiring a countdown for his black — just make it a weaker attack without one, similar to how it was previously.
2) Allow us to pick which countdown(s) we sacrifice. He's a master strategist and his attack literally has him pointing a finger to push a pawn, there's nothing random about that! Being able to pick your weakest countdowns or even undesirable countdowns would be a notable buff without making him overpowered. 
3) Add a passive component to his yellow that generates 1 black AP every time a friendly countdown is matched away or destroyed. Since at least half of the goon countdowns from his yellow meet this fate before firing, this would help give his yellow the boost it needs while taking away the sting of the increased cost of his black, while also further playing into the concept of him being a strategist that sacrifices his pawns for his own benefit.

Milk Jugz

mega ghost said:

I think he'd be perfect if they made three changes:

1) Remove the condition of requiring a countdown for his black — just make it a weaker attack without one, similar to how it was previously.
2) Allow us to pick which countdown(s) we sacrifice. He's a master strategist and his attack literally has him pointing a finger to push a pawn, there's nothing random about that! Being able to pick your weakest countdowns or even undesirable countdowns would be a notable buff without making him overpowered. 
3) Add a passive component to his yellow that generates 1 black AP every time a friendly countdown is matched away or destroyed. Since at least half of the goon countdowns from his yellow meet this fate before firing, this would help give his yellow the boost it needs while taking away the sting of the increased cost of his black, while also further playing into the concept of him being a strategist that sacrifices his pawns for his own benefit.

Those are great changes that would not OP him at all!!! For a 2/3 kind of situation, I think #2 & #3 are more important. I can live with the conditions on his black, there really are plenty of CD generators in the game anyway.

As far as #2 goes that would be a nice mechanic, especially if it allowed you to choose IF you used it as an AoE or just single target. Instead of automatically being an AoE when there is enough CDs

Vold

What exactly was the change, I haven't gotten to try his unpatched self

the part I get to record is the updated version.

looks quite good, though I didn't get to see a lvl 5 black in action. Or was that purple?
cant remember which was stuck at 3

wymtime

When you look at the changes to KP here is the reality.  There were and still are much better black powers in the 4* tier.  There are not as many quality yellow powers.  They made KP yellow significantly better by reducing the CD and buffing the damage done.  He has become more CD orientated then poke orientated.  In the current PVE I switched him to 3,5,5 because I can find better black users. 
His black can still do fairly good damage when he is buffed if you run him with 5 black.  If you run 3 yellow and just use those while buffed he is doing over 8k AOE damage for me which isn't bad.

if they adjust him I would like his black to go back to do damage and extra damage for destroying a CD.  It would also be cool if at level 5 he could destroy enemy CD instead.  Now for the extra AP you are much more value

Jarvind

Vold said:

What exactly was the change, I haven't gotten to try his unpatched self

the part I get to record is the updated version.

looks quite good, though I didn't get to see a lvl 5 black in action. Or was that purple?
cant remember which was stuck at 3

His black was 6 AP before, and could be fired with no CDs on the board for reduced damage. It didn't have the AOE component. Everything else was the same, except that the countdowns from Maggia Pawns were less powerful.

darkwatcherDEZ

Not sure if we appreciate the changes to black... What we do know is that we were on the receiving on of Kingpin's Black poke with 10,000 AOE on each character in PVP. Granted, this was a  boosted Fisk, but daayam Gina!

Vold

Jarvind said:

Vold said:

What exactly was the change, I haven't gotten to try his unpatched self

the part I get to record is the updated version.

looks quite good, though I didn't get to see a lvl 5 black in action. Or was that purple?
cant remember which was stuck at 3

His black was 6 AP before, and could be fired with no CDs on the board for reduced damage. It didn't have the AOE component. Everything else was the same, except that the countdowns from Maggia Pawns were less powerful.

Ic, thanks.

no CDs required? Wow
this change makes it feel like he's using his men like cannon fodder

dang didn't get to unlock him on time before he's cover expired need to wait for another.

qandols

I" rage sold" my level 200 kingpin after trying to use him