Thoughts on a vaulting solution

animaniactoo

Beer40 said:

2a) This is where you differentiate from the rest. You're suggesting that this pack is only obtainable thru DDQ? Maybe that will improve its chances. That's good: having a new idea to add. However, I would suggest you propose how the DDQ to obtain this pack works. Your idea is good, but its a half-idea and thus needs to be finished.

2b) To further explain my take on "2a" I don't feel that MPQ will look at 500 HP for the rewards you are suggesting as reasonable. You run the risk of them completely ignoring a great idea by adding this part in. They're not going to give away chances on characters you have to buy for 120 CP or 720 CP for 500 HP.

3) Do you mean in addition to buffing some of the latest 12? Otherwise, once again, I don't think this is realistic. They are pushing new characters on us. They want them used. So they're going to need to be buffed also.

To help, these are my proposals to what I've pointed out:

2a) A "super wave" node. At the beginning, you select 3 each of 1*, 2*, 3*, 4*, and 5*. You face the same star level in each wave and must beat them to move on. Complete all 5 waves and get the token. Why does this work? Well, the truth is, they want these Vaulted characters to be hard to obtain. Making sure people have at least 3 of each * level rostered will seriously cut down on the people that can even compete for this token. Make this event available every week, but it can be completed only once per week.

2b) The best solution for us and MPQ (so that they do this) would be to only allow 1 pull each event. No extra pulls. That's 52 extra covers per year you'd get if you complete the wave each week. However, lets assume they see this as a way to generate revenue. Lets figure out what stuff is worth!

3*, 4*, 5* you don't have a cover in = work/grinding for resources (HP/covers/CP). This also applies to 3*, 4*, 5* that you have but are missing a color cover in.

But to just obtain the highest reward (5*) outright takes a little bit of luck along with 20 CP. That's the important part. Because with a CL or LL, 20/25 CP guarantees you at least a 4*. 

So maybe a solution they would consider for extra pulls would be:

Pack odds are 70% 3* pull, 20% 4* pull, 10% 5* pull. Each pull costs 25 CP. Many people will be scared away by risking 25 CP to probably get a 3*, but plenty of people will see that 10% odds for all vaulted 5* and dump those CP in. 

I'm not saying this is a good idea, or I even really like it, but we have to come up with something that makes sense for MPQ to do...or they're not doing it. It can't be too beneficial to us. Basically, it has to barely be beneficial to us at all, outside of more opportunity to acquire covers.

3) Nothing more to add besides what I already said on this above.

Hmmmm. A couple of thoughts here:

• The thought behind this is actually primarily to get newer players who don't have access to vaulted characters better access to them. 

• This is also a defensive move because I can easily see that D3 might start to "retire" older (oldest/least popular) characters and just stop using them as buffs or essentials at all as the vault grows larger and build rate of newer characters stabilizes to get newer players up to "fighting strength" and competitive with older players. , That would rather suck imo. I mean... I've played this game for almost 2 years! I worked hard to build those guys, I don't want all that work to be (primarily) a waste in favor of building and working on the "current" characters.

So to your points:

2a) This shouldn't be TOO hard to beat, since the primary point is to get newer players some more reasonable access to the vaulted characters - it's more a benefit for them to get them rostered and on their way to useable, than it is to older players where a 3* a day or so is more in the "expected" category and might even be advanced enough that it's mostly good for selling for a bit more iso. I like the wave node idea, but I would limit it to three waves (so two for Under the Sea, one for Big Enchilada, three for this for variety), and make the requirements to choose a 2*, 3*, and 4* to play with. That would limit it to players who can at least start to hang with the big dogs and prevent them from getting ahead of themselves with access to the vault. If you can beat the Under the Sea node regularly, that's the point at which you should start being able to beat this node.

2b) I was thinking of this as an every day or every other day node, I think weekly would be way too limited given the proposal that characters change based on seasons which are only 28? 30? days long. That's why I think that extra pulls (if allowed at all) should be ridiculously expensive. If people really want to take advantage of it, it should hurt. Jaedenkaal did the calculations on 500 HP (sorry, can't search thread right now, I gotta get back to actually working), and figured out it's pretty reasonable for the odds of the 4/5 covers. Another possibility might be 50 CP. 

The point behind making it so expensive (if done at all) is to keep the focus on the Cover Packs which contain the "current" characters which the devs have basically indicated are the ones they want people to be building/using the most right now. That's to their benefit, because they're using primarily current characters as essential node characters and that helps the overall game mechanics and strategy for rotation.

3) Yeah, I was really unclear about that - I meant in addition to current characters. Only that for vaulted characters, those in this Vault cover pack are the ones that would be eligible for that kind of use.

animaniactoo

Nepenthe said:

sh81 said:

Nepenthe said:

Idea seems needlessly complicated, compared to just having a vintage classic LT for 20 cp with the older 4*s and 5*s in it.  I just want a token option like what classics used to be.
(And I don't care one bit about "but that's dilution!"  It's an option. If you don't like token dilution you can stick to buying the tokens with just the latest 12.)

It is dilution, which would really impact the usefulness of it.

I agree, completely, its unquestionably an improvement. However, switch it to a smaller, rotating pool takes it to the next level.

Suddenly you can make progress on 1/12 rather than 1/40(?), its much more direct, while still appeasing the RNG gods.

I know it's dilution, I just don't CARE. Spreading out my pulls among all my champed but now languishing 4*s is exactly what I want the option to do. (Mixed in with using latest legends to cover the new ones.)  I literally am asking for a diluted token option, and every time people say "That's dilution!"  This has been going on for months now.  YES, IT'S DILUTION! GIVE ME THE DILUTION!
/rant.

*whew*  Ok, so the problem with rotating tokens is then you have hoarding and waiting for the ones you want to rotate in. If we can only have older 4*s come in non-diluted tokens, then split them up into 3-4 tokens and make them available all the time. If you split the classic 5*s into those tokens too, it actually solves two problems. (And I've suggested this months ago as well.)

I hear you. I really really do. I swear. I want to be able to champ my Wasp and 4* Deadpool and Luke Cage, and XFW, and be able to add champ levels to them (in the near future, not some far off time). But it's pretty clear we're not going to get that, so I'm focusing on what we might be able to get and trying to balance it so that it doesn't work against the devs are trying to do.

Personally - I have no issue with hoarding. I cackled maniacally when I emptied the Taco Vaults recently - just as soon as I had enough tokens and the 4*s in there were ones I wanted. Made a huge start on my 2*star farm (thanks @broll @Milk Jugz), and gained enough health packs to keep me grooving as I get through this sloggier-than-I-remembered Hulk event. 

Wumpushunter

Give me a 25 CP store with just vaulted characters and Ill spend till the cows come home. NO 2s.

Nepenthe

@sh81 Very close, sure. I'd certainly prefer the rotating pool token to no vintage token.  The difference is rotating pool means hoarding and waiting, while the subset tokens you could buy the one you want whenever you want.

But yeah, at this point it's a bit like saying the game needs to build a bridge over this vaulting ravine, and you and I don't agree on what color to paint the bridge.

shardwick

My solution would be to build off of the latest 12 idea while giving people more control so they don't have to rely on bonus heroes. Each 12 pack would include the latest 6, four random vaulted characters picked prior to the start of a new season and then the user would get to choose two more to be in their pack. So maybe you really want to work on your Ice Man but he wasn't picked as one of your randoms, so you can pick him as one of your two and after you get some covers for him you think "Ok, I'll switch him out and work on my Carnage a bit" in a similar way to bonus heroes. 

This way you still get a decent amount of time to build up the latest before they get vaulted, the vaulted characters get some love too and if any of your favorites are still in the vault then you can bring them out whenever you want and can keep them out for as long as you want.