Thoughts on a vaulting solution

animaniactoo

I've read a lot on the pros and cons of vaulting, and I think there are really valid issues on both sides.

Pro: Newer players get rostered characters to useable levels much more quickly, and aren't eternally left behind by people who have been in the game for 3 years.

Pro: Iso supply is easier to keep up with (even though we're all always in short supply - that's part of the game, figuring out how to apply the limited resource) and use effectively for roster development.

Con: Vaulted characters are still used in PVE event essential nodes, and a couple of DDQ essential nodes, and get buffs making them strong characters if you've got them at useable/champed levels. The path to getting them rostered is long and slow if you don't already have them. Getting them useable is long and slow if they're undercovered.

Con: A lot of great rewards are in the champed levels which are not pretty inaccessible. Other than long and slow.

Con: Everyone is champing and playing with the same few characters now and it's getting boring facing the same teams in PVP all the time.

Based on that, it seems to me that we will soon end up with a lot more vaulted characters than unvaulted and an even greater gap between longtime players and newer players. However, putting them all into one store and letting people use CP to pull there just leads back into the previous dilution issue as people have to choose where to spend the same resources.

My proposal:

• Create a separate Vault Cover Pack with 1/2 the currently vaulted characters in it - the ones who have been in the game the longest. Set the odds at something like 1:20 for 5*, 1:8 for 4* and the rest 3* (no 2* characters in this pack)

• Add a node reward to DDQ which is a token for only that Cover Pack. Make additional pulls a very high cost - say 500 HP. Or just don't allow additional pulls.

• Every season, rotate out 1/4 of the characters who have been in the pack the longest, and rotate in 1/4 of the characters who have been in the vault the longest.

• Buffing/Essential usage: For vaulted characters, only use those that are in the Vault CP pack that season.

I think this will create a fast enough route to progress/rostering for older characters to keep them useable within the game and it will create variety in rosters on a regular basis as characters rotate in and out of the CPs and buff bonus. While still putting most of the focus on developing the newest characters before they go into the vault.

Thoughts? Proposed amendments?

broll

@animaniactoo sounds reasonable to me.  

animaniactoo

@sh81 - I think the flow of vaulted 3s are only decent enough if you already have them on your roster or fairly well covered. Otherwise, I think it's a long slow process to getting them rostered/covered, particularly in time for when they'll be buffed or used for essential nodes.

On another point, the goal of this is not to drastically speed up your ability to build your entire 4* and 5* roster, which taking out the 3s would do. It's simply to create greater access to all of the vaulted characters and can allow your 3*-5* roster to build at a slightly increased pace overall, which will be most beneficial for newer players.

While access to champ levels and finishing off 4 & 5 stars benefits everyone, at this point it's my opinion that while vaulting helps newer players catch up in terms of useable characters it also hurts them the worst in terms of roster build/fill when it comes to buffs and essential nodes and I think that's where the focus of any remediation of the vaulting has to be. And conservatively so that we're not feeding back into the same issue that the vaulting is meant to address, or speeding up the pace of the game to the point where it becomes too easy to advance your roster such that it outpaces new development so fast that people are "done" playing the game because new content doesn't come often enough to keep up with the pace at which people are "finishing" their rosters.

Another point is that newer players could easily be tempted into skipping 2->3 transition if they can build the 4/5 space so quickly, and that would also be an issue for overall game mechanics and strategy.

Straycat

Don't think you need to change the boosted list. PVP for me is always dictated by the boosted list. Simulator is where I face the same team over and over but those aren't boosted, so that's unlikely to change anyways.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding this. So this Vault Cover Pack is only obtainable by DDQ? What happens to Latest and Classic Legendary tokens?

I like the idea of splitting the 12 available between oldest and newest, although the issue is the same after they are vaulted again. Maybe when the oldest not in the pack catches up to newest it resets. I think it would be an ok solution to change the available 12 between oldest and newest, but if it is only obtainable from DDQ, and most of the time just give 3*s I don't see how much it helps.

A season is 30 days? 1 token a day from DDQ at 1/8 chance of 4*s gets you maybe 4. 50% chance those are new characters.

Jaedenkaal

Yeah I'd say the rate of acquiring a vaulted 3* still exceeds the chances of pulling that character prior to vaulting. The 3* characters I've favorited so far are still keeping pace with my top 10 or so 3*s that I can still pull.

That said, there's no reason NOT to put them on the token. They're still more valuable than the 2*s they stick us with otherwise

Jaedenkaal

sh81 said:

The only reason I would see is dillution, ironically!

When Im chasing an old 4* I dont want to be spending cp on 3*s!!

That's not dilution. Well. I guess technically it is, but it's not the dilution that's actually a problem around here, so let's not go labeling everything dilution. You're just talking about 4* draw rates here.

animaniactoo

Straycat said:

Don't think you need to change the boosted list. PVP for me is always dictated by the boosted list. Simulator is where I face the same team over and over but those aren't boosted, so that's unlikely to change anyways.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding this. So this Vault Cover Pack is only obtainable by DDQ? What happens to Latest and Classic Legendary tokens?

I like the idea of splitting the 12 available between oldest and newest, although the issue is the same after they are vaulted again. Maybe when the oldest not in the pack catches up to newest it resets. I think it would be an ok solution to change the available 12 between oldest and newest, but if it is only obtainable from DDQ, and most of the time just give 3*s I don't see how much it helps.

A season is 30 days? 1 token a day from DDQ at 1/8 chance of 4*s gets you maybe 4. 50% chance those are new characters.

The idea is that the other stores/cover packs stay as they are. This is an entirely separate pack, with ONLY the vaulted 3/4/5 characters as a method of small but regular access to the current and future vaulted characters and rotating them in and out so that newer players can have better access to them and can useably build them during the time they're being used for both PVE and PVP buffs. That's where I think the boosted list tie-in is necessary - boosted characters are a huge help in PVE also so seeing a list of buffed characters that you mostly don't have/have weakly can be really annoying.

animaniactoo

sh81 said:

The only reason I would see is dillution, ironically!

When Im chasing an old 4* I dont want to be spending cp on 3*s!!

And that's entirely why I'm not suggesting making it purchasable with cp. Or making it easy to do a lot of repeat pulls from.

Jaedenkaal

Well, sure. And even less interesting than a token that only has your bonus heroes in it. Or a button that gives you what you want every time you press it. 

1:8 odds for a 4* though is pretty decent, especially if it's a token that is handed out with DDQ

Straycat

animaniactoo said:

Straycat said:

Don't think you need to change the boosted list. PVP for me is always dictated by the boosted list. Simulator is where I face the same team over and over but those aren't boosted, so that's unlikely to change anyways.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding this. So this Vault Cover Pack is only obtainable by DDQ? What happens to Latest and Classic Legendary tokens?

I like the idea of splitting the 12 available between oldest and newest, although the issue is the same after they are vaulted again. Maybe when the oldest not in the pack catches up to newest it resets. I think it would be an ok solution to change the available 12 between oldest and newest, but if it is only obtainable from DDQ, and most of the time just give 3*s I don't see how much it helps.

A season is 30 days? 1 token a day from DDQ at 1/8 chance of 4*s gets you maybe 4. 50% chance those are new characters.

The idea is that the other stores/cover packs stay as they are. This is an entirely separate pack, with ONLY the vaulted 3/4/5 characters as a method of small but regular access to the current and future vaulted characters and rotating them in and out so that newer players can have better access to them and can useably build them during the time they're being used for both PVE and PVP buffs. That's where I think the boosted list tie-in is necessary - boosted characters are a huge help in PVE also so seeing a list of buffed characters that you mostly don't have/have weakly can be really annoying.

Ah, I misunderstood the 1/4 rotate out of the pack part.
But the boosted list would only be vaulted characters then? Doesn't that make the problem worse? And a season long boosted list would be too long if you don't have any of them champed. Although I am not sure how the boosted list works with event boosted vs weekly boosted, maybe it wouldn't be an issue.

animaniactoo

Right - YOU can. Not a newer player. Again, the point of this is NOT to drastically speed up the rate at which you can build/improve your 4/5 roster, even for vaulted characters. It's designed to be a minor benefit to older players and a bigger benefit to newer players, while working with the devs desire to keep focus on building the newest characters and avoid hindering build progress with too much dilution of available characters for players across all levels.

It sounds like what you're looking for is something that will drastically benefit your roster (and others who have similar ones), but I don't think that serves the game as a whole so I think it's a mistake to try to achieve that.

animaniactoo

Straycat said:

animaniactoo said:

Straycat said:

Don't think you need to change the boosted list. PVP for me is always dictated by the boosted list. Simulator is where I face the same team over and over but those aren't boosted, so that's unlikely to change anyways.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding this. So this Vault Cover Pack is only obtainable by DDQ? What happens to Latest and Classic Legendary tokens?

I like the idea of splitting the 12 available between oldest and newest, although the issue is the same after they are vaulted again. Maybe when the oldest not in the pack catches up to newest it resets. I think it would be an ok solution to change the available 12 between oldest and newest, but if it is only obtainable from DDQ, and most of the time just give 3*s I don't see how much it helps.

A season is 30 days? 1 token a day from DDQ at 1/8 chance of 4*s gets you maybe 4. 50% chance those are new characters.

The idea is that the other stores/cover packs stay as they are. This is an entirely separate pack, with ONLY the vaulted 3/4/5 characters as a method of small but regular access to the current and future vaulted characters and rotating them in and out so that newer players can have better access to them and can useably build them during the time they're being used for both PVE and PVP buffs. That's where I think the boosted list tie-in is necessary - boosted characters are a huge help in PVE also so seeing a list of buffed characters that you mostly don't have/have weakly can be really annoying.

Ah, I misunderstood the 1/4 rotate out of the pack part.
But the boosted list would only be vaulted characters then? Doesn't that make the problem worse? And a season long boosted list would be too long if you don't have any of them champed. Although I am not sure how the boosted list works with event boosted vs weekly boosted, maybe it wouldn't be an issue.

No, of the vaulted characters only the ones who would be in this DDQ cover pack would be eligible for boosting. Everybody in current tokens (Elites, Heroics, Legendaries, Classics) remains available, no changes at all to their usage is what I meant to lay out here.

ETA: I also only meant for weekly buffs, not a season-long buff. I see I didn't make that very clear, thanks for digging into it. I'll update the top post to fix that.

Jaedenkaal

Sure, 365 pulls per year, at 1:8 odds, is 45.625 4*s; a little over one cover each (plus bonus heroes!). I guess that's actually less than the number of 4*s you'd get in the same time period if you won every single crash (365/5*0.85=62.05).

As soon as you make them buyable, though, the odds per token don't matter nearly as much as the odds per cost, ie, the average cost per 4* cover over time. The HfH store demonstrates this very well. Apparently, 3600 HP for a targeted 4* cover (plus some incidental rewards which are unexciting but still have some value) was apparently extremely popular with some players (who have way more HP than I)

sh81 said:

Which kind of defeats the point.  A vault with older characters that are hard to get NEEDS to be ok for repeat pulls.  Even if they are expensive.

Although you know, as soon as they add a token store that you can buy from, everyone starts screaming "cash grab" and throwing molotov cocktails. You can't have it both ways.

Beer40

animaniactoo said:

I've read a lot on the pros and cons of vaulting, and I think there are really valid issues on both sides.

My proposal:

• Create a separate Vault Cover Pack with 1/2 the currently vaulted characters in it - the ones who have been in the game the longest. Set the odds at something like 1:20 for 5*, 1:8 for 4* and the rest 3* (no 2* characters in this pack)

• Add a node reward to DDQ which is a token for only that Cover Pack. Make additional pulls a very high cost - say 500 HP. Or just don't allow additional pulls.

• Every season, rotate out 1/4 of the characters who have been in the pack the longest, and rotate in 1/4 of the characters who have been in the vault the longest.

• Buff only characters who are in the Vault CP that season.

I think this will create a fast enough route to progress/rostering for older characters to keep them useable within the game and it will create variety in rosters on a regular basis as characters rotate in and out of the CPs and buff bonus. While still putting most of the focus on developing the newest characters before they go into the vault.

Thoughts? Proposed amendments?

I want to start out by saying I like most of your proposals. However, I think we need to be realistic here.

1) You first proposal to create a separate cover pack has been suggested by many, many people. It's perfectly ok to suggest it again...but I think we're beating a dead horse there. Although, lets keep trying, because its the best idea.

2a) This is where you differentiate from the rest. You're suggesting that this pack is only obtainable thru DDQ? Maybe that will improve its chances. That's good: having a new idea to add. However, I would suggest you propose how the DDQ to obtain this pack works. Your idea is good, but its a half-idea and thus needs to be finished.

2b) To further explain my take on "2a" I don't feel that MPQ will look at 500 HP for the rewards you are suggesting as reasonable. You run the risk of them completely ignoring a great idea by adding this part in. They're not going to give away chances on characters you have to buy for 120 CP or 720 CP for 500 HP.

3) Do you mean in addition to buffing some of the latest 12? Otherwise, once again, I don't think this is realistic. They are pushing new characters on us. They want them used. So they're going to need to be buffed also.

My opinion only, but I think you've got some good ideas in here...but also some bad (in MPQ eyes) ones too. And I think every time we suggest good features but add "bad" things in there, they see the "bad" and immediately disregard the rest.

To help, these are my proposals to what I've pointed out:

1) Nothing to add here.

2a) A "super wave" node. At the beginning, you select 3 each of 1*, 2*, 3*, 4*, and 5*. You face the same star level in each wave and must beat them to move on. Complete all 5 waves and get the token. Why does this work? Well, the truth is, they want these Vaulted characters to be hard to obtain. Making sure people have at least 3 of each * level rostered will seriously cut down on the people that can even compete for this token. Make this event available every week, but it can be completed only once per week.

2b) The best solution for us and MPQ (so that they do this) would be to only allow 1 pull each event. No extra pulls. That's 52 extra covers per year you'd get if you complete the wave each week. However, lets assume they see this as a way to generate revenue. Lets figure out what stuff is worth!

3*, 4*, 5* you don't have a cover in = work/grinding for resources (HP/covers/CP). This also applies to 3*, 4*, 5* that you have but are missing a color cover in.

But to just obtain the highest reward (5*) outright takes a little bit of luck along with 20 CP. That's the important part. Because with a CL or LL, 20/25 CP guarantees you at least a 4*. 

So maybe a solution they would consider for extra pulls would be:

Pack odds are 70% 3* pull, 20% 4* pull, 10% 5* pull. Each pull costs 25 CP. Many people will be scared away by risking 25 CP to probably get a 3*, but plenty of people will see that 10% odds for all vaulted 5* and dump those CP in. 

I'm not saying this is a good idea, or I even really like it, but we have to come up with something that makes sense for MPQ to do...or they're not doing it. It can't be too beneficial to us. Basically, it has to barely be beneficial to us at all, outside of more opportunity to acquire covers.

3) Nothing more to add besides what I already said on this above.

Jaedenkaal

Beer40 said:

2b) To further explain my take on "2a" I don't feel that MPQ will look at 500 HP for the rewards you are suggesting as reasonable. You run the risk of them completely ignoring a great idea by adding this part in. They're not going to give away chances on characters you have to buy for 120 CP or 720 CP for 500 HP.

Technically they've already done this; you just have to save up all your HP until the Vintage token store comes around, and buy a bunch of 40 packs. They also give a few away here and there.

Nepenthe

Idea seems needlessly complicated, compared to just having a vintage classic LT for 20 cp with the older 4*s and 5*s in it.  I just want a token option like what classics used to be.
(And I don't care one bit about "but that's dilution!"  It's an option. If you don't like token dilution you can stick to buying the tokens with just the latest 12.)

mpqr7

Yeah, there should be an easier way to pull vaulted 4*s. They basically don't exist any more. It's going to be tough to champion any vaulted 4*, since even Bonus Heroes won't fix when you have a 5/0/5 hero, trying to pull three of that middle color.

Jaedenkaal

sh81 said:

One diluted by 3*s?  Where you need to pull more frequently to get to what you want?  Now that would be seen as a cash grab.

The contents of the token that you're not interested in are completely irrelevant as long as the cost to get the part that you want is good. You're always going to get something you don't want some (or even most) of the time. If that's not ok with you, MPQ does have some targeted options, although they generally involve waiting.

500 HP for a 1/8 chance of a 4* would mean that, in the long run, you would be spending 4000 HP for a 4* cover.

Discounting daily deals and bonus heroes, the average cost for a 4* cover from a heroic token today is 4200 (via single pulls) or 3990 (from 40 packs). So the suggestion is not way off base.

jgomes32

The problem with vaulting isn't even really vaulting, it's more the lack of choice presented by D3. It's just poorly executed with obvious flaws. One "pro" i keep seeing is that "new players catch much faster" is only half true. They will in theory ideed catch up on those 12 but by then it's hard to compare a 315+ Agent Venom vs a 274 Deadpool for example. Meaning the disparity will be huge and there will be little incentive to pair a vaulted+12 in pvp. And no, BH and 3* champ rewards are not a fix. Bonus Heroes are exactly that, a bonus, not a way to make progress.

Just add two more stores with half the vaulted 4* in each, Vintage and "x", both always available, 20cp and 4* only. Maybe even 15 to help catch up with the Latest 12 levels. 

Extra Weekly store based on boost list. 20cp.

Make latest 12+, you can add one vaulted character to the pack or two if you remove one of the latest.

Oh and something needs to change for 5* classics. Maybe a 5* only token, 30CP, 50? I'm not in 5* land, can't say much on that.

Jaedenkaal

mpqr7 said:

Yeah, there should be an easier way to pull vaulted 4*s. They basically don't exist any more. It's going to be tough to champion any vaulted 4*, since even Bonus Heroes won't fix when you have a 5/0/5 hero, trying to pull three of that middle color.

There's never been a good solution to this, to be fair. 

Nepenthe

sh81 said:

Nepenthe said:

Idea seems needlessly complicated, compared to just having a vintage classic LT for 20 cp with the older 4*s and 5*s in it.  I just want a token option like what classics used to be.
(And I don't care one bit about "but that's dilution!"  It's an option. If you don't like token dilution you can stick to buying the tokens with just the latest 12.)

It is dilution, which would really impact the usefulness of it.

I agree, completely, its unquestionably an improvement. However, switch it to a smaller, rotating pool takes it to the next level.

Suddenly you can make progress on 1/12 rather than 1/40(?), its much more direct, while still appeasing the RNG gods.

I know it's dilution, I just don't CARE. Spreading out my pulls among all my champed but now languishing 4*s is exactly what I want the option to do. (Mixed in with using latest legends to cover the new ones.)  I literally am asking for a diluted token option, and every time people say "That's dilution!"  This has been going on for months now.  YES, IT'S DILUTION! GIVE ME THE DILUTION!
/rant.

*whew*  Ok, so the problem with rotating tokens is then you have hoarding and waiting for the ones you want to rotate in. If we can only have older 4*s come in non-diluted tokens, then split them up into 3-4 tokens and make them available all the time. If you split the classic 5*s into those tokens too, it actually solves two problems. (And I've suggested this months ago as well.)