Vaulting Question... Yes this topic again

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  • GurlBYE
    GurlBYE Posts: 1,218 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited July 2017
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    sh81 said:
    GurlBYE said:

    The issue is (especially with 2017 changes) they seem to be especially hesitant to rush any change that entirely positively effects players {scl based scaling} while they IMMEDIATELY release things that have obvious downsides that need to be addressed before release and have been leaving them unfinished. {Vaulting, 5 clears, HFH 40 day to Year + rotation change especially are the huge ones that come to mind}

    I have to disagree here, SCL based scaling entirely positively effects 5* players.  Indirectly, it adversely effects those below.

    At least, as per the test.

    The scaling was so easy 5* players were doing their grind in less than 30 minutes.  They were getting all the top 10 placements (top 50?) while playing without even engaging.  It wouldnt even have cost them any healthpacks or detracted from their PVP efforts.

    It was to them, in essence, what DDQ is to everyone else.

    And because of that, all those people that were used to working hard and placing top 50 in SCL7 and 8?  Well their scaling wasnt effected much, so they still put in the same time and effort - but were bumped so far down the reward chart by the casual 5*s coming through that their reward was worth nothing.

    Clearly, SCL scaling is a good thing, it is a means to making the game accessible to all, but implemented as tested?  Absolutely not.  It needs a lot of fine tuning before going live.
    5 star players bumping other players off is a constant issue.

    I can pretty much assure you they won't implement SCL minimums to 'fix' the issue because they can't.
    There's no way to "fix" the issue and have it still being SCL scaled because they chose to make SL not based on roster level but based on opening packs and sending team ups and completing nodes in addition to champing and leveling.

    SCL based scaling is exactly whats on the tin, It wasn't here to make it so that 5 star players and 4 star players compete the same, if anything it was to lower everyone's clear time and allow them to play on the level of difficulty they want for those rewards.

    People may think that it's the devs trying to make it fair and square competitively for placement,but that's clearly not the case.

    How would a player at 125 with only 4's and a player at 125 with 5's EVER be able to both flourish in placement under any system that's taking into account SCL?

    And why exactly would you have introduced SCL based scaling to solve a placement problem instead of changing placement rewards if that was your end goal?

    It's idealistic to expect effort to go over roster strength but I have this creeping suspicion (like all other systems in game currently) that this is not going to be an end goal of this system.
  • broll
    broll Posts: 4,732 Chairperson of the Boards
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    Straycat said:
    GurlBYE said:
    Vaulting has shifted this problem in exchange for a larger one, now there is an ever growing percentage of characters locked away, who appear once every 3 to 4 months as an essential (while still being boosted an unobtainable) 
    And who still appear in the roots of every part of the game (Behemoth burrito, pvp teams)

    You say the problem is ever growing, but I think it is almost the opposite. If every character that gets added to the vault is champed, or at least decently covered, then they are still good for the burrito, pvp, pve, the clash. Then your percentage of vaulted champs would be ever growing. 
    So your argument is rosters grow... well duh, they do in any format.  The ever growing part is someone who joins now will have like 42 4* vaulted.  Someone who joins next year will have over 50.  That's the growing problem.  They continue to make more characters further and further out of reach for new players, which will discourage new characters to join, which isn't good for the long-term life of the game.
  • Straycat
    Straycat Posts: 963 Critical Contributor
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    GurlBYE said:
    Straycat said:
    GurlBYE said:
    Vaulting has shifted this problem in exchange for a larger one, now there is an ever growing percentage of characters locked away, who appear once every 3 to 4 months as an essential (while still being boosted an unobtainable) 
    And who still appear in the roots of every part of the game (Behemoth burrito, pvp teams)

    You say the problem is ever growing, but I think it is almost the opposite. If every character that gets added to the vault is champed, or at least decently covered, then they are still good for the burrito, pvp, pve, the clash. Then your percentage of vaulted champs would be ever growing.


    I mean sure besides the fact that I had 1 4 champ before vaulting.

    So now I have an ever growing number of characters that won't be champed without intervention?

    I'm perfectly fine with being contrary and covering multiple perspectives but this is one thats super obvious.
    The change only negatively effected your champ levels if you already had them all champed.

    If you were part of the Very large amount of people who didn't have all the 3's/4's champed. The problems clear as day.

    For everyone i have between 1 and 6 covers?
    Well yeah. no. I can't clear their clashes, in pve they aren't as useful as someone fully covered and in pvp they are a huge liability no matter how boosted without being fully covered.
    I'm not sure we understand each other, specifically the bolded statements.

    To my point,the problem isn't growing and it has nothing to do with your champs before vaulting. The problem as you laid out: vaulted characters aren't usable.

    Peggy, Wasp, Spiderwoman, Luke Cage, Gwenpool and soon Blade are the only characters once in the 12 and now in the vault. Assuming you managed to get them covered while they were available, they are vaulted but still usable. So the vault may be growing in size but the problem isn't growing.

    I'm not trying to say vaulting is great, but I disagree that it created a larger and ever growing problem. The longer it exists, the more vaulted champs you will have. The original vaulted characters not champed likely will stay that way, but thats not what we're talking about.
  • Straycat
    Straycat Posts: 963 Critical Contributor
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    broll said:
    Straycat said:
    GurlBYE said:
    Vaulting has shifted this problem in exchange for a larger one, now there is an ever growing percentage of characters locked away, who appear once every 3 to 4 months as an essential (while still being boosted an unobtainable) 
    And who still appear in the roots of every part of the game (Behemoth burrito, pvp teams)

    You say the problem is ever growing, but I think it is almost the opposite. If every character that gets added to the vault is champed, or at least decently covered, then they are still good for the burrito, pvp, pve, the clash. Then your percentage of vaulted champs would be ever growing. 
    So your argument is rosters grow... well duh, they do in any format.  The ever growing part is someone who joins now will have like 42 4* vaulted.  Someone who joins next year will have over 50.  That's the growing problem.  They continue to make more characters further and further out of reach for new players, which will discourage new characters to join, which isn't good for the long-term life of the game.
    The concerns laid out were Behemoth burrito and pvp teams, not champ levels, so I understood the problem to be not having usable vaulted characters. And that problem shrinks the longer you play.
    If the problem is just that the vault is growing, then well duh. I just don't think that problem is sooo bad provided its full of champs.
  • Crnch73
    Crnch73 Posts: 504 Critical Contributor
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    There's a question no one seems to be asking at this moment:

    We vaulted the older 4's when there were about 43 or so 4 stars in the game. With the new releases still happening, what will we do when the vault contains more than 43 characters? Create a second vault maybe? A rotating vault, separated with specific tokens maybe? Who knows, but we are gonna get there soon enough... and when we do, whatever excuse/reason they had for vaulting will be proved false. The tokens will still be "not diluted", but the vault will be worse off than we were before vaulting. The predator and prey model explodes when one side is too big in numbers!
  • GurlBYE
    GurlBYE Posts: 1,218 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited July 2017
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    Straycat said:
    GurlBYE said:
    Straycat said:
    GurlBYE said:
    Vaulting has shifted this problem in exchange for a larger one, now there is an ever growing percentage of characters locked away, who appear once every 3 to 4 months as an essential (while still being boosted an unobtainable) 
    And who still appear in the roots of every part of the game (Behemoth burrito, pvp teams)

    You say the problem is ever growing, but I think it is almost the opposite. If every character that gets added to the vault is champed, or at least decently covered, then they are still good for the burrito, pvp, pve, the clash. Then your percentage of vaulted champs would be ever growing.


    I mean sure besides the fact that I had 1 4 champ before vaulting.

    So now I have an ever growing number of characters that won't be champed without intervention?

    I'm perfectly fine with being contrary and covering multiple perspectives but this is one thats super obvious.
    The change only negatively effected your champ levels if you already had them all champed.

    If you were part of the Very large amount of people who didn't have all the 3's/4's champed. The problems clear as day.

    For everyone i have between 1 and 6 covers?
    Well yeah. no. I can't clear their clashes, in pve they aren't as useful as someone fully covered and in pvp they are a huge liability no matter how boosted without being fully covered.
    I'm not sure we understand each other, specifically the bolded statements.

    To my point,the problem isn't growing and it has nothing to do with your champs before vaulting. The problem as you laid out: vaulted characters aren't usable.

    Peggy, Wasp, Spiderwoman, Luke Cage, Gwenpool and soon Blade are the only characters once in the 12 and now in the vault. Assuming you managed to get them covered while they were available, they are vaulted but still usable. So the vault may be growing in size but the problem isn't growing.

    I'm not trying to say vaulting is great, but I disagree that it created a larger and ever growing problem. The longer it exists, the more vaulted champs you will have. The original vaulted characters not champed likely will stay that way, but thats not what we're talking about.
    The problem is growing because we aren't the only players in the game.

    It' created a huger problem because new players now have a growing number of characters that are locked away without some solution being implemented. 

    Further changes have been made that even made the old ones cycling in for pvp rewards takes large quarters of year.


    My bolded statements were my main points.

    I've got an ever growing issue because the characters that I don't champ are  now being locked away.
    We haven't had a champ for their full lifespan but no characters thus far have been given the luxury of the full "12" treatment. 

    If you have everything champed, the only negative you face from vaulting is champ levels that stopped. 

    I'm saying that hey, if you have every character champed, yeah this totally is of no huge loss to you.

    We're doing that thing where we don't disagree but how we express it is different which is why i brought up the contrary statement. 

    Saying "the problem is there, but its not as big as you say" at base the most important part of the statement is, "there is a problem" how large or small that problem is is entirely based upon position and background.

    You don't have to agree with the severity, it will be different from player to player.
    There IS a problem.
  • Nikita-K
    Nikita-K Posts: 33 Just Dropped In
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    No one seems to see all possibilities to get older 4* covers. Here they are:

    - Progression and/or node rewards in every event (story and versus) for every character, vaulted or not, manageable for everyone in stories
    - ranking rewards for every character
    - event vaults for every character
    - event tokens without a vault when needed
    - champion rewards especially for older characters in every color
    - bonus heroes system
    - heroes for hire when needed for ddq for every character
    - cp when you have at least one cover of this color for every character
    - shield resupply for every character, even some 5* covers

    possibilities with "for every character" include even limited characters, normally just more rarely

    With all this stuff, latest 4*s in heroic and legendary tokens are just an addition to get them well covered soon.
  • broll
    broll Posts: 4,732 Chairperson of the Boards
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    Crnch73 said:
    There's a question no one seems to be asking at this moment:

    We vaulted the older 4's when there were about 43 or so 4 stars in the game. With the new releases still happening, what will we do when the vault contains more than 43 characters? Create a second vault maybe? A rotating vault, separated with specific tokens maybe? Who knows, but we are gonna get there soon enough... and when we do, whatever excuse/reason they had for vaulting will be proved false. The tokens will still be "not diluted", but the vault will be worse off than we were before vaulting. The predator and prey model explodes when one side is too big in numbers!
    Because unless the change something the answer is obvious, nothing.  The 43 became unavailable from CP and that number will just continue to grow.