Anger and Resentment from Duplicate Elite Pack Re-Rolling

2

Comments

  • Tilwin90
    Tilwin90 Posts: 662 Critical Contributor
    Ohboy said:


    I think you got played. He is basically describing himself doing the same thing as OP did, but calling his actions smart instead of morally questionable. I watched a televised debate last year where someone used the exact same argument. 

    The entire argument that this isn't an exploitation basically comes down to this basic(ridiculous) idea:

    The announcement from brigby about rerolling dupes is totally legit, that's why it's not an exploit. The part in that exact announcement about it being a one time thing is to be ignored, that's why it's not an exploit.
    Morally questionable? Woah! Hold your horses! When did this become an issue of morality? When has this had any prejudice towards any player or special favoritism?! Do I need to remind you of the exact statement "I expect the rules to be the same for everyone"?! 
    I suggest you refrain from such personal attacks Ohboy and stick to the arguments at hand!

    Every single time I was presented with duplicates I presented the exact situation to both support and Brigby, so I never attempted cheatery! I am surprised after all this debate and so many support tickets we still don't have an official statement. Never was I told "oh, you got a mythic duplicate again, too bad because <here> we clearly announced that this situation would not be resolved"

    As said, if an official statement had been pinned on the topic, and support and forum moderators would follow the same identical policy, there would be no problem! But the whole situation is somewhere borderline with one person's issue being resolved in one way, and another person's being resolved in another. That's it! 
    This happened before with the Baral refund, with some people receiving a refund when Baral was nerfed, but others did not. Again, different resolutions for the exact same claim/complaint/issue!
  • Steeme
    Steeme Posts: 784 Critical Contributor
    edited July 2017
    Ohboy said:

    I think you got played. He is basically describing himself doing the same thing as OP did, but calling his actions smart instead of morally questionable. I watched a televised debate last year where someone used the exact same argument. 

    I was merely being polite, and not trying to oppose his particular post directly.  I though it best to stick to the OP and make a general, non-confrontational post.  You can tell from his subsequent reply that he will stubbornly defend his position, right or wrong.


    Edit: Removed piece that could be construed as offensive.

  • Laeuftbeidir
    Laeuftbeidir Posts: 1,841 Chairperson of the Boards
    Tilwin90 said:
    Ohboy said:


    I think you got played. He is basically describing himself doing the same thing as OP did, but calling his actions smart instead of morally questionable. I watched a televised debate last year where someone used the exact same argument. 

    Morally questionable? Woah! Hold your horses! When did this become an issue of morality? When has this had any prejudice towards any player or special favoritism?! Do I need to remind you of the exact statement "I expect the rules to be the same for everyone"?! 
    I suggest you refrain from such personal attacks Ohboy and stick to the arguments at hand!
    Not to step into the discussion, but to calm that point :the author of the quoted thread called his own actions morally questionable. This was not an attempt for a personal attack, just a comparison between the different approaches of both ops. There is enough to pick on in this thread.. This isn't.
  • Ohboy
    Ohboy Posts: 1,766 Chairperson of the Boards
    Tilwin90 said :

    Every single time I was presented with duplicates I presented the exact situation to both support and Brigby, so I never attempted cheatery! I am surprised after all this debate and so many support tickets we still don't have an official statement. Never was I told "oh, you got a mythic duplicate again, too bad because <here> we clearly announced that this situation would not be resolved"



    So to summarize, your defence is that the exploit is not actually an exploit because 


    A) anyone could do it! (like all exploits in the universe) 

    B) when I did it, there was nothing to stop me(that's what makes it an exploit dude) 


    The exploit was that customer service didn't have SOPs in place to check how many times you've rerolled. The official wording was clear that for mythics at least, you got a one time Reroll. Detailing how easily you exploited it is not a defence. If someone had stopped you the exploit would have been patched(as it currently is, causing this thread in the first place) , I wouldn't have called it an exploit, and this wouldn't be an issue. 


  • Phillmoore
    Phillmoore Posts: 207 Tile Toppler
    Guys.  I have a question.  I have enough unobtainium for a card but have three of the mythics in this set so with my luck assume j will draw one of them again.  If that were the case how do j ask for a re roll.  Even am I entitled to a re role?   Is there a set phrase i am supposed to use?  
  • Mathistopheles
    Mathistopheles Posts: 13 Just Dropped In
    I see many people saying one of 2 main things here: 

    1) You are wrong if you actually have most (if not all) of the mythics in the Elite Boosters, and you expect to not get a Duplicate. 

    2) This is an "exploit" that nobody has ever stopped, therefore it has become an unofficial rule. 

    Here is my mindset on it, again: 

    I AM an impulsive buyer, and oftentimes too impulsive, dangerously so, before I click "Purchase" on any one screen. That being said, I have never once disputed any charge, even though I bought Baral and found him relatively useless after the nerf. 

    I was told by someone in my coalition that a duplicate card from an Elite Booster would entitle me to a re-roll. The email I received says in it "If you receive another duplicate from this gifted Elite Booster, do not hesitate to contact us again, and we will issue a review". 

    Some people will say "Well, who has more power here, Brigby, or the people who issue the re-rolls, answer the App Tickets, etc.?" 

    Personally, I don't care who has more power. The Mana Jewels are hard to come by. In Platinum, you can pay 60 crystals, get an AKH pack, 20 Jewels, and 30 Crystals...if you make 40 points (not hard) each day. 

    Assume the pack is the reward for doing well in a daily event. 20 Mana Jewels is then equivalent to some amount of time and 30 Crystals. This means that 1 Elite Booster is 20 days worth of events and 600 Crystals, or about 20-30 hours and 600 Crystals. Assume that your time is worth that of a minimum wage worker in 2019, or $10.10/hour. 

    The Vault sells 600 Crystals at $29.99 in a repeatable fashion, with a 3 color pack and 10K runes. This means the Elite Booster (without being aided by Coalition Challenges, prizes, etc.) costs upwards of $200. 

    For $200 worth of time, getting a Duplicate Mythic in a pack is a relative smack in the face. I spend more than $200 on each set, plus time helping to lead a Coalition that regularly sits just outside of Top 10 on most events. I fear that due to the Law of Diminishing Returns, all of that time and money will get relegated to a few commons, if the Booster Crafting System falls short. 

    In short, the Booster Crafting system may lead to a reduction in the amount of money that myself and other "whales" regularly put into this game. 

    Assume a duplicate Masterpiece can then be turned around into a "Premium Pack". 5 packs, plus a guaranteed rare (AKA a pipe dream in and of itself). In my experience, you can expect 3 rares or less a solid 75% of the time. If I have a duplicate Masterpiece, then I likely have most, if not all of the rares. Assume a single rare will lead to a Regular Pack (also, a pipe dream currency-wise). Now, by the Law of Diminishing Returns, my masterpiece has turned into 3 Regular Packs (not even a "Super Pack" with "high chances of a rare") and some portions of another Regular Pack. A Duplicate Masterpiece down to 4 Packs 75% of the time. The drop rates better be improving, or many "whales" won't see the point in investing more money to the point where Duplicates are highly possible. 

    The best case scenario is for D3 to place a higher cost on each Booster Crafted, and exclude Duplicate Cards. Let the Craft cost scale upwards based on how many "cards you have from the available card pool it will be servicing". I would gladly continue paying (and others would likely pay) if I needed to exchange 30 duplicate rares and 2 Duplicate Mythics for a single non-Exclusive Mythic that I am missing from the set. 

    This encourages people like me to continue spending money, and it will encourage people who are spending less money than I am to continue to spend money and open packs, since there will be a better chance to get that last mythic that you want, even if you have to open 30 duplicate rares to get it. 
  • Steeme
    Steeme Posts: 784 Critical Contributor
    Phillmoore said:
    Guys.  I have a question.  I have enough unobtainium for a card but have three of the mythics in this set so with my luck assume j will draw one of them again.  If that were the case how do j ask for a re roll.  Even am I entitled to a re role?   Is there a set phrase i am supposed to use?  

    You are entitled to re-roll on your first elite pack purchase.  You can keep re-rolling on that pack until you get a non-duplicate.


    Brigby said:
    Hey Everyone. Just wanted to stop by to mention a couple of things:

    1) The team is currently developing a system that addresses duplicates, in order to give them more value than just converting into runes. You can expect this to be implemented within the next couple of months. (Sorry I don't have more info. Still too early in development for me to receive any announceable information)

    2) If you do happen to receive a duplicate Masterpiece, then please leave it in your inventory, and send in a support ticket. Customer Support will be able to credit you a one-time exception Elite Pack. If you find that you receive a duplicate even in the compensation Elite Pack, then please reach out to Customer Support again, and they will credit you Elite Packs until you no longer receive a duplicate.

    Update: The policy has been changed to limit the amount of re-rolls available, prior to ticket escalation. This update was made to prevent players from exploiting the policy.

    Note he subsequently updated it to include both Mythic / Masterpiece, as long as you obtained it from an Elite pack.

    Also note the "Update" at the bottom.  Apparently he added that on June 19.

  • deletedgone
    deletedgone Posts: 166 Tile Toppler
    I can further confirm that the revised policy on rerolls (not just a one time occurrence) is what convinced me to open the wallet again.  I suspect that D3 understands this.
  • Tilwin90
    Tilwin90 Posts: 662 Critical Contributor
    Ohboy said:



    So to summarize, your defence is that the exploit is not actually an exploit because 


    A) anyone could do it! (like all exploits in the universe) 

    B) when I did it, there was nothing to stop me(that's what makes it an exploit dude) 


    The exploit was that customer service didn't have SOPs in place to check how many times you've rerolled. The official wording was clear that for mythics at least, you got a one time Reroll. Detailing how easily you exploited it is not a defence. If someone had stopped you the exploit would have been patched(as it currently is, causing this thread in the first place) , I wouldn't have called it an exploit, and this wouldn't be an issue. 


    You just twisted two points I made as if they are defining exploiting alone. I can give you gazillions of things that anyone could do and nothing would stop you, like say:
    - Play an unbounded number of matches in the training ground - anyone can do it, and there is nothing to stop you from doing that, to get an unlimited amount of runes.
     - - Aha, but some players don't have access to good lifegain to be able to do this without resorting to potions. Now are those players not requiring potions abusing the game?
    - Buy as many mana crystals as you want (you can't do that with Elite Crystals)
    - Have as many alternate accounts as you want (some games do not allow multiple accounts per player)
    - Play decks in thematic events that completely ignore the theme and are specifically designed against the theme. (I know a lot of people are upset about those players... but is it an exploit?)

    Now say starting with today's release, you constantly got 15 mana crystals from the 4th match onward. Hence you can get an unlimited amount of mana crystals. Is this an exploit or not?!

    The intent is incredibly important here, as well as equity amongst players. Software development can introduce bugs, or simply come up with flawed designs that damage the play experience drastically (uhm... Baral anyone?).
    - In the second example, if it were intended this way for, say a week to celebrate something something, it wouldn't be an exploit. But if D3 went and said "whoops, it's a bug, sorry about it, please stop doing it before the next release", but people kept doing it, should it be an exploit?
    - - Aha, but what if they only announced on the forums, but not everyone follows the forums? They kept the last update, and see "hey cool, more crystals, this is awesome!"

    In your example with the Elite Packs you are assuming I am exploiting the system because it's obvious to you that "it's enough the Elite Pack guarantees a mythic, even if it's a dupe", while given the cost I assumed "the Elite Pack being so rare should guarantee a new card, whether it's a mythic or masterpiece, and by coming up with the reroll policy they admitted messing up the implementation and need more time to come up with the right implementation". Neither of our assumptions cover what the true intent was, which is indeed important.

    So in the lack of an official announcement regarding the intent of this, that's clearly communicated through all channels (forum, support, ingame etc.), I am sorry but accusing people of exploiting is abusive and unfair to those people! Even worse when those players make purchases based on this premise and then ended up in utter disappointment because of contradicting statements. Will those players buy anything anytime soon? I think not!

    I do not encourage obvious exploits and abuses of a game that clearly benefit some players more than others (or render other players' purchases useless), but let's not turn this into a witch hunt. :smile:
  • Gotcha617
    Gotcha617 Posts: 88 Match Maker
    I don't know why you can't make elite packs dupe protected. Other games run specials like that
  • Tilwin90
    Tilwin90 Posts: 662 Critical Contributor
    Gotcha617 said:
    I don't know why you can't make elite packs dupe protected. Other games run specials like that
    At first I also thought it was a problem of programming, but it would seem that in this case since they are raising exploiting on this issue it is not the direction in which D3 wants to go with the Elite Packs.
  • Irgy
    Irgy Posts: 148 Tile Toppler
    edited July 2017
    It all comes down to the fact that they failed entirely to just choose what system they wanted to have and implement it. Instead, they implemented one thing, sold it as something else, then added a stupid patch-up approach to try and split the difference.

    If it was intended to not provide duplicates, it should just not provide duplicates. In game. Without contacting support. If duplicate-rerolls were implemented in-game then they would work whichever way they work and nobody would argue about whether a particular strategy is an exploit.

    If it was intended to just be another way of getting cards, and you only avoid duplicates by waiting two weeks for a new set of cards, then they should say that's what it is and stick to it. Again there'd be nothing *to* exploit.

    As it is, they've implemented some patch-up or other, and they have particular goals with that patch-up, which aren't entirely clear, and anything that goes beyond those goals they'll try and prevent, and meanwhile the players are going to try to get the most out of it they can. Sitting around judging people in this sort of messy scenario is the world's biggest waste of time. As is complaining about the developers trying to enforce whatever it is they're trying to do.


  • Abenjes
    Abenjes Posts: 253 Mover and Shaker

    OP should add confusion into the title of the post as well.

    I now have no idea what we are allowed to do.

    Again the rules have been blurred by lack of proper communication and as the team gets ready for the HOU release I don't expect to get any further communication except. "once crafting is a thing rerolls will cease to exist"

    it makes perfect sense to me that if you have played enough( and been lucky enough) or spent enough money to have all 5 mythics in an elite pack and you use 400 jewels to purchase that elite pack you should be able to reroll in order to get a MP if you get a dupe mythic. not have to wait for a new pack.

    my understanding was you get a reroll if you get a dupe, regardless of whether its a MP or just a mythic.

    D3 support have now set a precedent that this is what happens. it is easy to understand why there is such resentment and anger aimed at d3 from reading these posts.

  • Ohboy
    Ohboy Posts: 1,766 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited July 2017
    Abenjes said:

    OP should add confusion into the title of the post as well.

    I now have no idea what we are allowed to do.

    Again the rules have been blurred by lack of proper communication and as the team gets ready for the HOU release I don't expect to get any further communication except. "once crafting is a thing rerolls will cease to exist"

    it makes perfect sense to me that if you have played enough( and been lucky enough) or spent enough money to have all 5 mythics in an elite pack and you use 400 jewels to purchase that elite pack you should be able to reroll in order to get a MP if you get a dupe mythic. not have to wait for a new pack.

    my understanding was you get a reroll if you get a dupe, regardless of whether its a MP or just a mythic.

    D3 support have now set a precedent that this is what happens. it is easy to understand why there is such resentment and anger aimed at d3 from reading these posts.


    Threads like this are the reason you have that misunderstanding. 

    You COULD Reroll indefinitely till you got a non dupe. But that's only because they didn't have a system in place to check if you have rerolled before. The system relied on the users' honesty, and obviously that's not going to work. 

    You SHOULD only Reroll once for a mythic dupe. That's always been the official stance and never deviated. It's never been unclear except for the few user threads discussing this exploit and pretending it's a hidden Easter egg. There's a bit of ambiguity regarding masterpiece duplicates and whether they had unlimited or one time Rerolls, but that's not the issue here. 

    Saying this sets a precedent and thus means it's expected legit behavior is like saying we should bring back coalitions being allowed to swap members around during events, because they condoned it by allowing it to happen in the first place. It's ridiculous logic. Closing the loophole is a bug fix(and we always want those right?) , but because this bug allows users to exploit the reward system, they're outraged. Hypocrites, the whole bunch of them. 

    If anything, the OP not being able to directly request for masterpieces when he has all 5 mythics should clue anyone in that this was an exploit, not an actual feature. (If you don't follow the exact steps to exploit the **** in that armor, your attempt fails) 

    The people defending this in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary are either offenders, willingly ignorant, or just plain blind. 


  • nerdstrap
    nerdstrap Posts: 180 Tile Toppler
    In the end, who cares? Let people do what they want. It's not cheating in the game. Y'all have too much time on your hands
  • deletedgone
    deletedgone Posts: 166 Tile Toppler
    @ohboy have you ever been wrong before?  About anything?
  • Ohboy
    Ohboy Posts: 1,766 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited July 2017
    All the time. This is not one of those times. 

    The official position on this was never to provide unlimited rerolls. I even questioned brigby for an official response when this was announced, because I knew this was going to be so exploitable. 

    Here's his reply

    //Removed Partial Private Message -Brigby
  • Steeme
    Steeme Posts: 784 Critical Contributor
    spesler said:
    @ohboy have you ever been wrong before?  About anything?

    He's actually correct here.  It should be obvious if you actually read any of the threads we've referenced, including the official statement from Brigby.

    You can thrash about all you like, it doesn't change the truth.

  • deletedgone
    deletedgone Posts: 166 Tile Toppler
    edited July 2017
    He was right up until around April 14th (after the threads that I "didn't read") when the response form letter email from customer service changed.  All of the "one time exception" language was dropped, and replaced with some version of "dont hesitate to contact us  if you ever get another duplicate in an elite pack".  No one from CS was being fooled or exploited.  They have access to every request on a per user basis.  I even sent a thank you PM to a few admins at that point - it was a generous move and I wanted to express appreciation.

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