Restrictive characters suck the fun out of this game.

Elric_VIII

I'm beginning to get really tired of characters that punish you for playing the game. At some point, you get enough of them that using strategy to counter them flies out the window and it just ends up being a matter of a lucky board.

These are the types of characters that I mean, in no particular order:

• Medusa (Inhuman Queen)
• Captain Marvel (Carol Danvers)
• Jean Grey (All-New X-Men)
• Peggy Carter (Captain America)
• Spiderman (Back in Black)
• Loki (Dark Reign)
• Luke Cage (Powerman)
• Mr. Fantastic (Reed Richards)

Obviously, they aren't all an issue. BSS, Loki, and C4ge are reasonably tame because they don't disrupt your ability to play. Mr.F is annoying, but not particularly strong unless he's with Medusa or something. I think Peggy is at a good balance point where she is not an easy win, but she doesn't steal game by accident. She slows down the enemy team without unreasonably punishing effects.


I think the biggest offenders of this type are Medusa, Jean, and Carol.

Jean and Carol punish you for getting cascades that would be considered lucky at any other time. These two discourage playing the game because the trigger on the event of a match-5 or strong color match is incredibly disproportionate to that actual gain of that match. These two are very frustrating since you have minimal control over how you can play around them. 

Now for Medusa: Probably the backbone of this unpleasant trend. I think her issue is that she has zero counterplay (other than a stunlock) because her abilities trigger regardless of who makes the match, how the tiles are destroyed, and to whom they belong. She literally punishes you for playing the game in a much more obnoxious way than the previous two. Medusa needs to be changed so that her powers are conditional on who does the matching or who owns the tiles.


I don't think these characters need nerfs, they need changes. Make them more like Peggy, an obstacle not a catch-22.

finlanderboy

I think these characters do the exact opposite of what you say.

These character make the game a puzzle and put fun back into the game.  I like developing tricks and strategies to win.  Now just dumb matching.

Tucsonjon

finlanderboy said:

I think these characters do the exact opposite of what you say.

These character make the game a puzzle and put fun back into the game.  I like developing tricks and strategies to win.  Now just dumb matching.

Agreed.  These are the most fun characters to play especiaaly medusa and C4arol.  Please don't touch these.

Jarvind

I actually find Blade more annoying than any of these, because he's either a total pushover or kills you dead immediately depending on how much red is out and whether it's matchable. It's the unpredictability that bothers me.

Jean and Carol are annoying, but not in such a way that you can't reliably beat them. Jean's passive is irritating but rarely a match-ender, and her other powers are fairly easy to deny. For Carol, just avoid your strongest color until she's down. Yes, sometimes the board will conspire against you and you'll lose, but any character in the game (except maybe Bagman?) will beat you if the board is unlucky enough.

A few of these are just baffling, as well. Loki is annoying, but if you avoid match-4s he can't do much of anything, and he's squishy enough to get out of the way quickly. Black Suit is one of the weakest 5*s; to do any serious damage he needs to accumulate an absurd amount of green AP. If you're relying so heavily on strike tiles to win that he's a legitimate problem for you, you may want to consider trying other strategies occasionally. I realize you said up there that they aren't as big of a problem, but you still included them on the list, so you must have some level of beef with them.

Back to your more prominent examples (Jean, Carol, Medusa) - I think people forget that "Puzzle" is right there in the name of the game. There was a long period where the sum total of "strategy" in MPQ was "GET DA GUD AP, SHOOTY DA BIG NUKE FOR WIN TIMES," and it seems like people still haven't gotten used to genuinely interesting character design. It requires you to play differently, yes, but it's entirely beatable.

TPF Alexis

C4rol is also a reason that I've started looking for teams that in my roster have their strongest colour on a Passive or a power that the team doesn't really need to function. I kind like having to work around things like that.

Elric_VIII

I just listed the characters that have an element of this for the sake of being complete. I think loki is fine and I've only played against a BSS with actual covers only a handful of times. I even recently finished my own C4ge. But you can't look at this in a vacuum. 

I'm not saying they are unbeatable, I'm saying that if you gather enough of them together you put so many restrictions on play that it removes the puzzle element because eveything punishes you. Look at the Carnage-Medusa-C4rol teams that make up more than half of the opponents in shield sim. This team comp is basically designed to make every match (both friendly and not) beneficial for itself. It removes strategy by making nearly every choice bad while also benefiting the Medusa even if they match away their own tiles. There's a reason this is such a popular team. Occasionally you see a Coulson/Blade/Peggy/Wasp substituted for Carnage/C4rol, but the Medusa is pretty constant.

Do you know how I beat this team reliably? I pull out my OML with 5 yellow to outlast it. I'm just barely in the 4* tier with 7 champs, but I got a lucky run with OML covers. Not everyone is in that same fortunate position. My fallback would be to basically make RHulk play martyr and hope I don't cascade into an enemy win. 

So while each character might be okay alone, the cumulative effect is not something that promotes counterplay.

Bloody_Marvel

I tend to disagree on the Carnage/Medusa/Carol teams. Put Medusa and Carol on your own team, and you'll benefit as much from Carnage as your opponent. AND it leaves you space for an additional character like Bl4de or Peggy, putting the opposing team at a disadvantage.

I also like the puzzle factor of fighting some of these characters, and deciding whether making that strongest color match against Carol is more beneficial than detrimental, or matching that special tile away weighs up against the health boost given by Medusa.

I want more characters with weird powers. It adds variety to the game. If it's only doing pure damage, the game gets boring quick.

aa25

Elric VIII said:

I just listed the characters that have an element of this for the sake of being complete. I think loki is fine and I've only played against a BSS with actual covers only a handful of times. I even recently finished my own C4ge. But you can't look at this in a vacuum. 

I'm not saying they are unbeatable, I'm saying that if you gather enough of them together you put so many restrictions on play that it removes the puzzle element because eveything punishes you. Look at the Carnage-Medusa-C4rol teams that make up more than half of the opponents in shield sim. This team comp is basically designed to make every match (both friendly and not) beneficial for itself. It removes strategy by making nearly every choice bad while also benefiting the Medusa even if they match away their own tiles. There's a reason this is such a popular team. Occasionally you see a Coulson/Blade/Peggy/Wasp substituted for Carnage/C4rol, but the Medusa is pretty constant.

Do you know how I beat this team reliably? I pull out my OML with 5 yellow to outlast it. I'm just barely in the 4* tier with 7 champs, but I got a lucky run with OML covers. Not everyone is in that same fortunate position. My fallback would be to basically make RHulk play martyr and hope I don't cascade into an enemy win. 

So while each character might be okay alone, the cumulative effect is not something that promotes counterplay.

Isn't that make the game more interesting ? Instead of straightforward character that deals damage, a beautiful combo like this (Carnage+Medusa) is what keeps me excited when new characters come out. (I ran into Carnage+Medusa+Iceman at one point earlier this season, that team is a beast!) If you really want to counter Carnage+Medusa, the easiest one is probably bring you own Medusa. That will shut down the opponent game play instantly. Or you can bring Antman to steal those tiles. Or Re-worked Drax can chop up that team too (at least on the paper, I don't have mine champed yet).

revskip

aa25 said:

Elric VIII said:

I just listed the characters that have an element of this for the sake of being complete. I think loki is fine and I've only played against a BSS with actual covers only a handful of times. I even recently finished my own C4ge. But you can't look at this in a vacuum. 

I'm not saying they are unbeatable, I'm saying that if you gather enough of them together you put so many restrictions on play that it removes the puzzle element because eveything punishes you. Look at the Carnage-Medusa-C4rol teams that make up more than half of the opponents in shield sim. This team comp is basically designed to make every match (both friendly and not) beneficial for itself. It removes strategy by making nearly every choice bad while also benefiting the Medusa even if they match away their own tiles. There's a reason this is such a popular team. Occasionally you see a Coulson/Blade/Peggy/Wasp substituted for Carnage/C4rol, but the Medusa is pretty constant.

Do you know how I beat this team reliably? I pull out my OML with 5 yellow to outlast it. I'm just barely in the 4* tier with 7 champs, but I got a lucky run with OML covers. Not everyone is in that same fortunate position. My fallback would be to basically make RHulk play martyr and hope I don't cascade into an enemy win. 

So while each character might be okay alone, the cumulative effect is not something that promotes counterplay.

Isn't that make the game more interesting ? Instead of straightforward character that deals damage, a beautiful combo like this (Carnage+Medusa) is what keeps me excited when new characters come out. (I ran into Carnage+Medusa+Iceman at one point earlier this season, that team is a beast!) If you really want to counter Carnage+Medusa, the easiest one is probably bring you own Medusa. That will shut down the opponent game play instantly. Or you can bring Antman to steal those tiles. Or Re-worked Drax can chop up that team too (at least on the paper, I don't have mine champed yet).

Or take Rocket and Groot and Gamora out to play with Antman or Nova.  Or Iron Fist and Luke Cage with Wasp.  The interplay is really good right now in the 4* tier.  Multiple ways to skin every cat.  

Elric_VIII

Well, when I read threads on how to deal with c4rol/medusa teams and half the answers that aren't "skip it" involve using c4rol and medusa to counter themselves, it really doesn't promote counterplay. 

For those of you saying you have fun fighting this team, do you do it without your own c4rol and medusa?

Because when the most effective counter to a character is that character, you've got a bad metagame.

Player1575

I just use medusa/r&g/gamora whenever I see the carnage/carol/medusa team. Can usually kill Medusa by turn 3 and then it's an easy win from there. 

revskip

Also mitigating Medusa is easily done by just taking along a Medusa team up.  If things get going and she gets to stealing away or creating too many special tiles a quick Hair Meddle will turn the tide for which ever team you choose to send against it.  

Skrofa

I beat on some medusa carol teams these days with coulson, scarlet witch and carol. 
I like Medusa and carol! The ladies all seem to pack a punch and I like playing with them and against them!

HANDS OFF THE LADIES!

MarkersMake

Elric VIII said:

Well, when I read threads on how to deal with c4rol/medusa teams and half the answers that aren't "skip it" involve using c4rol and medusa to counter themselves, it really doesn't promote counterplay. 

For those of you saying you have fun fighting this team, do you do it without your own c4rol and medusa?

Because when the most effective counter to a character is that character, you've got a bad metagame.

I disagree.

When a new, powerful, potentially unbalancing character is introduced, and she is her own best counter, that's great! Especially in the current context of vaulting, where she is relatively easy to acquire and champion. 

That's far better than someone whose counter is already vaulted, or whose counter has not yet been introduced. Either of those situations gives a significant advantage to veterans or to power gamers,  respectively. 

Besides, it gives d3 a chance to introduce *other* counters before she leaves tokens, without unbalancing the game in the meantime. 

Calnexin

I might agree with the frustration of it if you were forced to fight these characters.  If you could get bounced out of a match by a challenger ala 90's arcade style gameplay and had to face these characters with whatever team you were fielding, it would be really unfair.  But you know their abilities going in and can tailor a strategy to defeat them.  If you can't, it's probably not because of your luck or them having unbeatable power sets, but because you lack the appropriate counters in your roster.  If you don't have that diversity on your side, fighting certain characters is very much pounding your head against a brick wall.

I've never had a problem with Carol.  The color she punishes you on is your choice.  If you choose the same one as hers or you hinge your strategy on your strongest color, you go in with a disadvantage.  You get around that by spiking your team with a strongest passive, bringing your own Carol and letting them match the color, or stunning when you need to match.

Medusa's the one that typically ruins a game for me.  I usually have to bring a strong, reliable nuke, and just assume that match damage is negligible until I've collected enough to take her out.  If Carnage is along for the ride bring strong strike tiles to make his attacks do more damage to them than you.  Bring your own Medusa to reap nearly the same rewards.  Bring Ironheart to aggregate and lock those tiles.  

There are ways to get around the tougher abilities, but you won't be able to if you don't have access to the characters that can do it.  That's just the nature of the game.  Taking away the annoying powers would be like taking the knights out of chess.

granne

I love these characters that make me think. Besides, all characters restrict you in some way - you can't go up against Red Hulk and blithely let him match the purple and green; you have to deny IM40 yellow; the list goes on.

If you're expecting to win every match with a one-size-fits-all strategy, then PvP will be a dark place for you.

Arix90

Id say kate bishop is a good counter to medusa she can block healing and has strong damage power 

Wonko33

The OP assumes that blindly matching titles is the fun of this game. The more puzzle aspects , the more I enjoy this game. 

Elric_VIII

This is somewhat amusing to read at this point.

Elric_VIII

Jarvind said:

 There was a long period where the sum total of "strategy" in MPQ was "GET DA GUD AP, SHOOTY DA BIG NUKE FOR WIN TIMES," and it seems like people still haven't gotten used to genuinely interesting character design. It requires you to play differently, yes, but it's entirely beatable.

Bloody Marvel said:

I also like the puzzle factor of fighting some of these characters, and deciding whether making that strongest color match against Carol is more beneficial than detrimental, or matching that special tile away weighs up against the health boost given by Medusa.

I want more characters with weird powers. It adds variety to the game. If it's only doing pure damage, the game gets boring quick.

Calnexin said:

There are ways to get around the tougher abilities, but you won't be able to if you don't have access to the characters that can do it.  That's just the nature of the game.  Taking away the annoying powers would be like taking the knights out of chess.

Wonko33 said:

The OP assumes that blindly matching titles is the fun of this game. The more puzzle aspects , the more I enjoy this game.



Well, since there seems to be a nice echo chamber going on in here, let me leave you with one parting remark directed at those that seem to think that having these characters and strategy are mutually exclusive:

If you play with them on your team (as seems to be the consensus to dealing with them) then you pretty much eliminate the need for strategy since they achieve the win almost entirely through passives. So congrats on that hilarious level of doublethink.

Jarvind

Elric VIII said:

Jarvind said:

 There was a long period where the sum total of "strategy" in MPQ was "GET DA GUD AP, SHOOTY DA BIG NUKE FOR WIN TIMES," and it seems like people still haven't gotten used to genuinely interesting character design. It requires you to play differently, yes, but it's entirely beatable.

Bloody Marvel said:

I also like the puzzle factor of fighting some of these characters, and deciding whether making that strongest color match against Carol is more beneficial than detrimental, or matching that special tile away weighs up against the health boost given by Medusa.

I want more characters with weird powers. It adds variety to the game. If it's only doing pure damage, the game gets boring quick.

Calnexin said:

There are ways to get around the tougher abilities, but you won't be able to if you don't have access to the characters that can do it.  That's just the nature of the game.  Taking away the annoying powers would be like taking the knights out of chess.

Wonko33 said:

The OP assumes that blindly matching titles is the fun of this game. The more puzzle aspects , the more I enjoy this game.



Well, since there seems to be a nice echo chamber going on in here, let me leave you with one parting remark directed at those that seem to think that having these characters and strategy are mutually exclusive:

If you play with them on your team (as seems to be the consensus to dealing with them) then you pretty much eliminate the need for strategy since they achieve the win almost entirely through passives. So congrats on that hilarious level of doublethink.

If you play with them on your team, you're playing them against the AI which is notoriously stupid and predictable. Here's the AI's entire "thought process," such as it is:

1: Do I have AP to fire any of my powers? If yes, fire them in the order the AP colors appear on the AP count display, starting from the top and going down. Move to 2. (Note: sometimes it will hoard AP for a more expensive power if it has two on the same color. Sometimes it won't. Not sure what the deciding factor is there.)

2: Is there a match-4 or -5 in a straight line? If yes, make it regardless of color. If no, move to 3.

3: Is there a match-3 in a color I have an active power for (including TU unless it's been fired already)? If yes, make that match. If no, move to 4.

4: Is there a match-3 in one of my "strong" colors? If yes, make it. If no, move to 5.

5: Make a match-3 at random.


That's it. No AP denial, no avoiding enemy passives, no attempting to preserve friendly special tiles. Hell, I've lost count of how many times I've had AI Juggernaut and Ares kill themselves with their red and yellow, respectively. So obviously you will have a very easy time against the AI when you have Medusa or Carol on your team, because it's incapable of taking their powers into account.

You, on the other hand, have the ability to strategically avoid making a strongest-color match against Carol, giving you a tremendous advantage over the AI when the situation is reversed.

If everyone is telling you you're wrong, you might be a brilliant visionary who can see what nobody else can. But you're probably just wrong.