Alliance Daily Bonus Nerf Already!? Rage!

Unknown

Read my sig. I'm not a mod right now, just a random guy voicing an opinion. And that opinion is that you don't understand the impact of game design beyond what affects you directly.

I'm not saying thank you for taking it away. I'm saying I understand that giving 7000 ISO every 2 weeks to one guy "just because" and only 2800 ISO to another guy is dumb. If they're trying to foster an environment where rosters matter (which is a tangential argument, admittedly), then you shouldn't be offering such a large differences in amounts to different people based solely on the size of their alliance.

Even now, the 2800 I'm getting vs. the 1120 that someone else is getting is still significant but puts it back in the realm of a normal event reward. The oil baron analogy is still appropriate b/c you're all for the rich getting richer much faster than the poor can get less poor. B/c the extra free 4K ISO you were getting gives you a much more solid competitive advantage.

And my analogy didn't talk about taxes, it talks about tax breaks. When we each bought into our alliances, we weren't thinking about daily freebies, we were thinking about competitive advantages; so neither of us can claim that we were investing HP with the expectation of free ISO every day.

Unknown

Riggy wrote:

If they're trying to foster an environment where rosters matter (which is a tangential argument, admittedly), then you shouldn't be offering such a large differences in amounts to different people based solely on the size of their alliance.

I still say that if they wanted a balanced game with a diverse metagame and varied rosters, they wouldn't have tiers of rarity and such wide power disparity between characters, and it would be fairly trivial to get any one character to the level cap. Rares and legendaries scratch that gambler itch for token purchases, though.

Unknown

TishToshTesh wrote:

Riggy wrote:

If they're trying to foster an environment where rosters matter (which is a tangential argument, admittedly), then you shouldn't be offering such a large differences in amounts to different people based solely on the size of their alliance.

I still say that if they wanted a balanced game with a diverse metagame and varied rosters, they wouldn't have tiers of rarity and such wide power disparity between characters, and it would be fairly trivial to get any one character to the level cap. Rares and legendaries scratch that gambler itch for token purchases, though.

You're right, true parity would remove rarity, or have some mechanism for brackets based on roster or team level. However, that greatly reduces the longevity of a game. The mechanics of ISO and acquiring / leveling heroes at all is what creates both longevity in the game and the inequality of competition (hence the numerous arguments on scaling, among other things). So I agree that you need to have some sort of gimmick or hitch to keep people amused beyond just the match 3 combat mechanic. However, the disparate amounts of ISO being given away in the free daily reward was a poor way to foster long-term competition.

I actually think that like many other threads, this argument is more about their ham-fisted implementation as opposed to anything substantial about the game mechanics.

Bowgentle

klingsor wrote:

We in the forums are the vocal minority, so if we just sit back and take every negative change they make, we are just observers. Not every change has to be done to improve their bottom-line. I've argued against this nonsense before and people tell me the game is doing great financially. Well if it's doing great, then don't nickel and dime the population. You don't have to bend over every-time they affect the game negatively (Have you already forgotten the absurd drop rates from Lightning Round Tokens?). Grow a pair and say something, so that when I show this thread to ICE, we are of one mind, and not filled with developer apologists who just applaud every time we lose something.

And one more thing, this is the patch release notes:
viewtopic.php?f=13&t=6458
Where does it say there that the value has been adjusted? Someone changed a value on a database and it was not announced or part of the released features. As far as I'm concerned this is a test and they can roll it back, if the apologist crowd doesn't keep trying to convince everyone that getting less ISO is somehow a good thing.

I rage against things that a) irk me personally and b) look like they're here to stay.
Taking one cover away from single player and giving it to alliances, making the cover of a new 4* top 100 alliance only, PVE scaling that locks out people who know how to play - these things I post against.
Adjusting the amount of ISO alliances receive daily after what, a week? That might just have been someone miscalculating, so no big deal since it wasn't around long enough to get used to.

Unknown

Riggy wrote:

Read my sig. I'm not a mod right now, just a random guy voicing an opinion. And that opinion is that you don't understand the impact of game design beyond what affects you directly.

I'm not saying thank you for taking it away. I'm saying I understand that giving 7000 ISO every 2 weeks to one guy "just because" and only 2800 ISO to another guy is dumb. If they're trying to foster an environment where rosters matter (which is a tangential argument, admittedly), then you shouldn't be offering such a large differences in amounts to different people based solely on the size of their alliance.

Even now, the 2800 I'm getting vs. the 1120 that someone else is getting is still significant but puts it back in the realm of a normal event reward. The oil baron analogy is still appropriate b/c you're all for the rich getting richer much faster than the poor can get less poor. B/c the extra free 4K ISO you were getting gives you a much more solid competitive advantage.

And my analogy didn't talk about taxes, it talks about tax breaks. When we each bought into our alliances, we weren't thinking about daily freebies, we were thinking about competitive advantages; so neither of us can claim that we were investing HP with the expectation of free ISO every day.

And how do you claim I don't understand the impact of game design? I am a published former game developer, so how you infer I don't understand the impact of the game design is beyond me, especially when you haven't explained what such impact is. Please explain using big boy words how giving away ISO is bad in terms of game-play or economy. Is it because it's unfair to the little guy who doesn't have an alliance while big bad Klingsor is getting richer at the tone of 500 ISO a day? Perhaps you would like to nerf daily rewards as well? I have hundreds of FB friends and get a large daily bonus! If this is your premise it is ridiculous and I am done discussing this with you. You have no basis to know what my expectations or motivations were to join an alliance either. You speak from a position of pseudo-knowledge so better to state that it's your opinion than to try to make your personal opinions seem like canon.

Unknown

Riggy wrote:

You're right, true parity would remove rarity, or have some mechanism for brackets based on roster or team level. However, that greatly reduces the longevity of a game. The mechanics of ISO and acquiring / leveling heroes at all is what creates both longevity in the game and the inequality of competition (hence the numerous arguments on scaling, among other things). So I agree that you need to have some sort of gimmick or hitch to keep people amused beyond just the match 3 combat mechanic. However, the disparate amounts of ISO being given away in the free daily reward was a poor way to foster long-term competition.

They could take a page from the Guild Wars design. PvP is normalized at the level cap and PvE goes through the normal RPG level/loot grind with a ton of cosmetic stuff and esoteric skills for the completionist. (The business model is solid, too.) I've long argued that WoW should normalize units for PvP.

...then again, we don't have real PvP here anyway. *shrug*

Unknown

I agree there is some amount of disappointment when someone hands you 500 units of free money one day, and then the next, but then starts giving you only 200. It is natural to feel that disappointment. But we are still getting more per day than we were before. So no we don't need to bite the hand feeding us, and it is still polite to say thanks when you are given something, period.

captainnjpw

500 iso barely covers my daily skipping (thanks, D3P), let alone 200.

Unknown

klingsor wrote:

Riggy wrote:

Read my sig. I'm not a mod right now, just a random guy voicing an opinion. And that opinion is that you don't understand the impact of game design beyond what affects you directly.

I'm not saying thank you for taking it away. I'm saying I understand that giving 7000 ISO every 2 weeks to one guy "just because" and only 2800 ISO to another guy is dumb. If they're trying to foster an environment where rosters matter (which is a tangential argument, admittedly), then you shouldn't be offering such a large differences in amounts to different people based solely on the size of their alliance.

Even now, the 2800 I'm getting vs. the 1120 that someone else is getting is still significant but puts it back in the realm of a normal event reward. The oil baron analogy is still appropriate b/c you're all for the rich getting richer much faster than the poor can get less poor. B/c the extra free 4K ISO you were getting gives you a much more solid competitive advantage.

And my analogy didn't talk about taxes, it talks about tax breaks. When we each bought into our alliances, we weren't thinking about daily freebies, we were thinking about competitive advantages; so neither of us can claim that we were investing HP with the expectation of free ISO every day.

And how do you claim I don't understand the impact of game design? I am a published former game developer, so how you infer I don't understand the impact of the game design is beyond me, especially when you haven't explained what such impact is. Please explain using big boy words how giving away ISO is bad in terms of game-play or economy. Is it because it's unfair to the little guy who doesn't have an alliance while big bad Klingsor is getting richer at the tone of 500 ISO a day? Perhaps you would like to nerf daily rewards as well? I have hundreds of FB friends and get a large daily bonus! If this is your premise it is ridiculous and I am done discussing this with you. You have no basis to know what my expectations or motivations were to join an alliance either. You speak from a position of pseudo-knowledge so better to state that it's your opinion than to try to make your personal opinions seem like canon.

There is so much irony here. If you read the post you quoted, you can see the answers to your questions. Allow me to break them down.

klingsor wrote:

Riggy wrote:

Even now, the 2800 I'm getting vs. the 1120 that someone else is getting is still significant but puts it back in the realm of a normal event reward. The oil baron analogy is still appropriate b/c you're all for the rich getting richer much faster than the poor can get less poor. B/c the extra free 4K ISO you were getting gives you a much more solid competitive advantage.

so how you infer I don't understand the impact of the game design is beyond me, especially when you haven't explained what such impact is.

It's not the amounts that are the issue here, it's the disparity b/w rich and poor. Whether you're getting 10 ISO per guild mate or 25, the difference b/w a 5 man and a 20 man is significant. With less ISO being given out, the disparity is smaller, but still a reasonable advantage to the member of the larger alliance (on the order of an extra event win every 2 weeks).

klingsor wrote:

Riggy wrote:

Read my sig. I'm not a mod right now, just a random guy voicing an opinion.

You speak from a position of pseudo-knowledge so better to state that it's your opinion than to try to make your personal opinions seem like canon.

As I said before, I speak only my opinion and I try to always offer examples and a reasoned discussion on why my opinions are what they are. And we've all published games. It takes little effort to publish something. I have an FEIN, corporate stock, and everything.

klingsor wrote:

You have no basis to know what my expectations or motivations were to join an alliance either.

Umm... actually, yeah, you have me on this one. I don't know why you joined an alliance. I assumed it was because you'd want to take part in the socialization and the expected alliance events (as your posts scattered across the forums would have indicated, so not as much of an assumption as it was an inference). However, I highly doubt that you joined an alliance and formed a large network of alliances just on the off chance you'd get lots of freebies.

So the summary of this is that I, a random dude on the internet with some history of game design, thinks that D3 took a ham-handed approach to game implementation to daily alliance rewards, giving out a lot at first in attempt to push more people towards alliances, then reigned it in after they realized what the size and scope of the long-term gap they were creating would be. Is that a concise enough statement that sums up my views throughout this thread?

Unknown

klingsor wrote:

Bowgentle wrote:

TishToshTesh wrote:

The ISO fountains in this game are way too stingy in general, though. The core puzzle combat is solid, but the progression and cover mechanics are vastly subpar compared to previous Puzzle Quest games.

I made about 100K ISO since Saturday morning.

The ISO payouts have increased considerably during the last 2 months or so - if you finish in a top spot in PVP your ISO intake is mad.
Case in point: Hollowpoint Kiss.
500 ISO for 50 Points.
250 for 200.
250 for 400.
500 for 500.
500 for 700.
1000 for 800.
1000 for 1000.
2500 ISO for top 25.

That's 6500 ISO for a top 25 finish - 5500 if you only go up to 800.

On average, for a Top 1 finish, you'd get the ISO for up to 1000 (=4000) plus 3000 for the win, plus whatever you get for selling the covers you don't need.
Plus if you are in a semi-decent alliance (which you probably are, if you are taking top 1 in PVP) and we're looking at another 2000 ISO for a top 100 finish.

So that's 9000 ISO alone without any covers you sell of, which is crazy.

Add to that at least 2000 ISO you make from each LR (play until 250), plus all those PVE rewards and you have more ISO than ever before.

Bowgentle, You mean to tell me that the rich get richer?!? C'mon guys, get real. Don't come bragging about how much fake in-game money you are making with top 25 finishes... What about the other 100,000 players that don't dominate every event?

Bottom-line someone decided they were being too generous. Why buy ridiculously overpriced ISO packs when they are just giving the ISO out on the street like candy? It's not being shorted 300 ISO, it's the principle of adjusting things just to drive impulse purchases up. What about character re-balancing? That's not a top priority because it alienates players and doesn't create revenue. If you remember the amount of nerd rage when Rags got **** you know what I'm talking about...

We in the forums are the vocal minority, so if we just sit back and take every negative change they make, we are just observers. Not every change has to be done to improve their bottom-line. I've argued against this nonsense before and people tell me the game is doing great financially. Well if it's doing great, then don't nickel and dime the population. You don't have to bend over every-time they affect the game negatively (Have you already forgotten the absurd drop rates from Lightning Round Tokens?). Grow a pair and say something, so that when I show this thread to ICE, we are of one mind, and not filled with developer apologists who just applaud every time we lose something.

And one more thing, this is the patch release notes:
viewtopic.php?f=13&t=6458
Where does it say there that the value has been adjusted? Someone changed a value on a database and it was not announced or part of the released features. As far as I'm concerned this is a test and they can roll it back, if the apologist crowd doesn't keep trying to convince everyone that getting less ISO is somehow a good thing.

Well said!!!!!

They never include negative changes in their patch notes; like the reward structure of lighting rounds being crippled. Boosts prices were increased...Oh, we "forgot" to mention that.

Unknown

@Riggy, alright bro, let's stop the e-peen tickle fight, I get it, you are smart and college educated, you don't have to tell me about your portfolio unless you want to make a game with me.

Someone else said "biting the hand that feeds" I find that expression interesting, except incorrectly used. It's my hand (and yours) that feeds Demiurge. My money for their game. They don't feed us, we feed them (literally in the case of the non-executive staff) so we have a right to complain.

Not only were notes not published, some alliance members tell me they are still getting 500 ISO daily. So some get 200 but some get 500? Justify that one junior economists? Has Demiurge taken a page from the Robin Hood playbook or simply made a mistake rolling out changes willy-vanilly?

Unknown

@Klingsor I think we completely agree that D3 has done a pretty poor job of communicating changes (or even the typical tourney structure for points and node refreshes). Would you be more ok with this nerf to daily ISO if they had just come out and posted somewhere (their facebook site, here on the forums, or on their marvel.com page) that it was changing and why it needed to be changed?

klingsor wrote:

Not only were notes not published, some alliance members tell me they are still getting 500 ISO daily.

This was a known occurrence on day 1 and it depended on whether a person claimed their daily reward before or after that content push. I haven't heard of anyone saying that it's happened since that first day though (nor has there been any threads on it since day 1), so if you're still seeing it, that's definitely a sketchy bug of some sort.

Unknown

Even at a restaurant you may be a paying customer but if you yell at the cook you will get escorted out.

Especially if you are yelling because he only gave you two free mozzarella sticks with your entree instead of five.

Yes you always have the right to complain, but complaining is not the only nor even most effective way to communicate your concerns.

I for one want the devs working on new characters, new events, making the game elements more fun and rewarding, and yes communicating changes better with the community. With all of these things an argument about how much free iso they feel like giving out daily seems at best a distraction from things they should be working on.

Unknown

Riggy wrote:

@Klingsor I think we completely agree that D3 has done a pretty poor job of communicating changes (or even the typical tourney structure for points and node refreshes). Would you be more ok with this nerf to daily ISO if they had just come out and posted somewhere (their facebook site, here on the forums, or on their marvel.com page) that it was changing and why it needed to be changed?

klingsor wrote:

Not only were notes not published, some alliance members tell me they are still getting 500 ISO daily.

This was a known occurrence on day 1 and it depended on whether a person claimed their daily reward before or after that content push. I haven't heard of anyone saying that it's happened since that first day though (nor has there been any threads on it since day 1), so if you're still seeing it, that's definitely a sketchy bug of some sort.

Yes, if it was released on the News And Announcement section I would not have created this thread. One of my admins showed a screenshot of getting the 500 bonus today, that's twice after rollout, so bug or partial rollout.

@Crypto, I'm not yelling at the cook, I'm saying if you keep taking my bread basket when my hand is still collecting bread, I might not eat here anymore... I lol at the idea of someone asking me to leave a restaurant. I would be all like, "Do you know I am a Venom??? I shall kill you where you stand!" Or something like that.

Unknown

Ok ok, you can have the extra mozzarella sticks just don't murder the waitstaff

Verno5x

klingsor wrote:

Yes, if it was released on the News And Announcement section I would not have created this thread. One of my admins showed a screenshot of getting the 500 bonus today, that's twice after rollout, so bug or partial rollout.

There's another option as well. They're likely A/B testing engagement with the 25/player award vs the 10/player award. I also assume that they get a daily report of the different currency types out there and have a total number of unspent ISO and HP. They're probably targeting that number to a particular value which is why they're messing around with the daily rewards so much.