5 clears for max progression is too much

sinnerjfl

For casual play and people used to 4 clears set as max progression, 5 clears feels like too much. That additional clear is at max scaling so it takes a while to do, its more time spent in a game mode that's super repetitive...      *sigh*

Remember when you told us "for our collective health" that progression would be 4 clears? I do, so what changed exactly?

You're gonna do more harm than good to your user base with that decision. More burnout on PVE will happen and engagement will go down. No, the additionnal rewards really don't make up for it.

4 clears was fine, go back to that...  I'd even rather we go back to the old rewards at 4 clears than this.

That decision came out of nowhere too, please reconsider that, it's a pretty big deal and it just happened out of the blue.

gravel

I couldn't disagree more, but I never just do 4 clears.  I love the extra rewards, and hope they stay.

broll

The question ultimately is should casuals expect to get max progression?  I agree 5 clears a day is certainly not casual, but if your goal is to play casual should you expect to get max?

The thing that really is a kick in the tinykitty for casuals is that they back loaded CP so severely.  I think people who stopped at 4 should be able to get the 25 CP they got before and the additional 8 CP should be higher and they choose if it's worth it to grind higher or not.

hesjingixen

My question is what do they mean by 5 clears.  Do they mean 5 in a row, or do they mean 4 in a row, wait 23 hrs, and then do the 5th.

If it's the former, I've got no problem with this.  If it's the latter.......ugh.

RoboDuck

sinnerjfl said:

For casual play and people used to 4 clears set as max progression, 5 clears feels like too much. That additional clear is at max scaling so it takes a while to do, its more time spent in a game mode that's super repetitive...      *sigh*

Remember when you told us "for our collective health" that progression would be 4 clears? I do, so what changed exactly?

You're gonna do more harm than good to your user base with that decision. More burnout on PVE will happen and engagement will go down. No, the additionnal rewards really don't make up for it.

4 clears was fine, go back to that...  I'd even rather we go back to the old rewards at 4 clears than this.

That decision came out of nowhere too, please reconsider that, it's a pretty big deal and it just happened out of the blue.

Agreed.  I was facing severe burnout before last week's deluge of bad design choices.  This did nothing but push me closer to full on quiting.  

Orion

hesjingixen said:

My question is what do they mean by 5 clears.  Do they mean 5 in a row, or do they mean 4 in a row, wait 23 hrs, and then do the 5th.

If it's the former, I've got no problem with this.  If it's the latter.......ugh.

You can do the 5th clear immediately and still have enough points to get max progression.

I agree with the above poster that wonders why casuals are complaining about the higher # of clears.  If you're getting max progression in every event, then you aren't a casual.  I play to checkmarks all of the time, so it doesn't matter to me.  I like the higher rewards.

rixmith

I play all my nodes to green check marks (gotta get that XP), so for me the changes were nothing but goodness.

broll

hesjingixen said:

My question is what do they mean by 5 clears.  Do they mean 5 in a row, or do they mean 4 in a row, wait 23 hrs, and then do the 5th.

If it's the former, I've got no problem with this.  If it's the latter.......ugh.

I thought how I understood it is to do 5 you had to let the 5 recharge, but doing all 6 at once if you don't want to wait would give you max, but the posts haven't been very clear at all on this.  I think it will take a few events before we truly know.

HobieCat76

I love the extra rewards, but if you do 4 clears in the new system, you should be able to at least earn the same rewards as you did in the old system.  Then, for anyone that does more than 4 clears, they're clearly earning more rewards for their extra effort.  However, that is not the case here because in SCL8, you used to be able to earn 25 CP with 4 clears.  Now you can't.  Heck, if you didn't make max progression in the old 4 clear system, odds are you'll still at least get 10 CP.  Now, in the new system, 4 clears will just get you 8 CP.  That's what doesn't sit right with me.

Give the players that do more clears the extra rewards.  They absolutely deserve it and I'm all for it.  It's so much better than just fighting for placement once you've maxed progression.  But changing the reward ordering in a way that means that players playing just 4 clears get less?  Not right.  

And @sinnerjfl is right - @Brigby you had previously announced reductions to how points reset in the early nodes and specifically cited the developers concern that grinding nodes repeatedly was an unhealthy way to play.  And now the developers release a change that basically reincents repeated grinding.  You guys can't have it both ways.

Fightmastermpq

broll said:

The question ultimately is should casuals expect to get max progression?  I agree 5 clears a day is certainly not casual, but if your goal is to play casual should you expect to get max?

The thing that really is a kick in the tinykitty for casuals is that they back loaded CP so severely.  I think people who stopped at 4 should be able to get the 25 CP they got before and the additional 8 CP should be higher and they choose if it's worth it to grind higher or not.

Agree with broll somehow.  I typically get green checks or go all out so it doesn't matter to me, but there is no reason the old rewards table couldn't have been maintained with an additional "above and beyond" table added on that continues even past 5 clears but on up to 6, 7, and near optimal play with smaller rewards thrown in.  Let the grinders grind out small amounts of HP/CP/ISO as they continue to go over "max" progression.

Better yet set up yet another "trophy" system that tracks the number of times you hit certain levels of progression.  Hit max 10 times earn some CP or a LT or something.  These kinds of long term reward systems really help the longevity of games and are great for rewarding dedicated long-term players.

sinnerjfl

broll said:

The thing that really is a kick in the tinykitty for casuals is that they back loaded CP so severely.  I think people who stopped at 4 should be able to get the 25 CP they got before and the additional 8 CP should be higher and they choose if it's worth it to grind higher or not.

Totally agree on that, If people that do more clears get more rewards, that's fine with me, that's how it should be.

Doing the same 4 clears now netting me -17 CP, not cool and unneccessary change.

bbigler

Here are some things you should consider:

1. You can still do 4 clears and get some good rewards, this should be satisfactory for casual players.
2. The reason they implemented this (I think) is because hardcore players were going far above max progression points and getting nothing for it (other than placement rewards).  So, this partly "solves" that problem.
3. They're trying to make players happier with more rewards and speed up overall progression in the game.

It sounds like you want higher level rewards with a casual level of play.  Adjust your expectations of rewards or amount of play.  You can't get both.

Jarvind

bbigler said:

2. The reason they implemented this (I think) is because hardcore players were going far above max progression points and getting nothing for it (other than placement rewards).  So, this partly "solves" that problem.

If this is true, then the logical solution would have been to simply add more rewards above the 15 CP, instead of increasing the number of clears required and continuing to backload all the CP on the very last reward.

sinnerjfl

bbigler said:

It sounds like you want higher level rewards with a casual level of play.  Adjust your expectations of rewards or amount of play.  You can't get both.

Nope, I just want the same rewards I had for the same effort as before. Not more, not less, just the same. That's reasonnable isnt it? Go compare 4 clears now to 4 clears before, it's not pretty.

NewMcG

broll said:

hesjingixen said:

My question is what do they mean by 5 clears.  Do they mean 5 in a row, or do they mean 4 in a row, wait 23 hrs, and then do the 5th.

If it's the former, I've got no problem with this.  If it's the latter.......ugh.

I thought how I understood it is to do 5 you had to let the 5 recharge, but doing all 6 at once if you don't want to wait would give you max, but the posts haven't been very clear at all on this.  I think it will take a few events before we truly know.

I believe that Brigby explicitly stated that if you do a fifth clear immediately for 2/3 points, that 2/3 max value is the "fifth clear" point value factored into progression.

MaxxPowerz

I couldn't agree more, and it's made me question whether or not I want to keep playing the game. Playing 5 clears all of the time is really unhealthy. It was nice to know I could get a small chunk of CP with a reasonable amount of play, but now they've taken that.

These revisions to the rewards structure read like Donald Trump's budget for the fiscal year. They offer more rewards, but the bulk of them are at a level most people won't reach (because they don't want to play 5 clears of the same PVE we've had for years).

One thing is for sure, this totally flies in the face of 'quality of life'.

Vhailorx

gravel said:

I couldn't disagree more, but I never just do 4 clears.  I love the extra rewards, and hope they stay.

This is not an either/or question.  Demi gave more rewards to players fot 5+ clears.  That's s fine.  They also gave fewer rewards to 2-4 clears.  Why?  What purpose does this serve?

bbigler

Jarvind said:

bbigler said:

2. The reason they implemented this (I think) is because hardcore players were going far above max progression points and getting nothing for it (other than placement rewards).  So, this partly "solves" that problem.

If this is true, then the logical solution would have been to simply add more rewards above the 15 CP, instead of increasing the number of clears required and continuing to backload all the CP on the very last reward.

Perhaps D3 is trying to give hardcore players a real advantage over casual players by moving the 15 CP to the end?

MissChinch

The annoying part is how simple it would have been to just put an 8CP reward 20% beyond what the old max prog was and call it a day...  

They had to go out of their way to do more work to make sure they stick it to people that could only do 4 clears.  Literally extra work and the opportunity cost of fixing something to make sure people doing 4 clears get less...  Just puzzling decision making.

Vhailorx

bbigler said:

Jarvind said:

bbigler said:

2. The reason they implemented this (I think) is because hardcore players were going far above max progression points and getting nothing for it (other than placement rewards).  So, this partly "solves" that problem.

If this is true, then the logical solution would have been to simply add more rewards above the 15 CP, instead of increasing the number of clears required and continuing to backload all the CP on the very last reward.

Perhaps D3 is trying to give hardcore players a real advantage over casual players by moving the 15 CP to the end?

Yes, it's clear that hardcore players have no real advantage over casual players now.  So this solves a real problem with mpq.  (/sarcasm)

Warbringa

They can add extra progression for clears beyond 4 but the fact they moved the 25 CP back to max progression is the deal breaker.  Leave it so that you get the 25 CP at 4 clears like the old system.  Simply add extra rewards beyond that for those who do like to do more clears but don't make them a great incentive to encourage people to play past 4 clears.  This change really (almost forced) players to now do 5 clears if you want to get the only really valuable reward - 25 CP.  Put this reward earlier at 4 clears, like it used to be, and then add more rewards like 2500 iso, event tokens or heroic tokens for people wanting to do 5 and 6 clears.  That way those people still get more rewards but you don't create the incentive for people to sink way more time into the game.  You will eventually lose more players in the long run to burnout by keeping this new progression model....guarantee it.  

Here is another shocking idea, instead of messing with progression, why not just make the rewards for clears 5 and 6 a little better instead of 100 or so iso and random boosts.  Once again, reward those who choose to do them with more than the current pittance they get but don't make the rewards so good that it encourage people to make that 5th and 6th clear.  For example, make the 5th clear 250 iso on the harder nodes and the 6th clear either a set reward (+20% damage to all for one node, +2 AP to all for another, etc) or an elite token for example.  Easy nodes are fine as is at 5 and 6th clear anyway.  

Also for all of those questioning, yes you can be a casual and make four clears a day.  The issue that I don't want to have to spend an extra 20-30 minutes a day on this game for the CP.  PvE is my main source of CP.  I already spend nearly 2 hours a day playing this game between DDQ (20 minutes give or take) and 4 clears (probably 20-30 minutes per clear depending on the event and roster etc.)  I don't want to spend MORE time on the game, but the change forces you do to so with the back loaded CP.  The extra rewards are not worth 20-30 minutes I am being compensated for playing.  I can play the 1-2 hours and not have it impact my life too much, however any more beyond that becomes difficult.