Vhailorx said: Daiches:You say "it's fine to be casual as long you are ok with casual rewards."Thanks for giving everyone permission to be casual! But you are sort of ignoring the fact that casual rewards just got worse. So while it's ok to be casual, it is it also ok for demi to pull the rug out fron under casual players? 'Cos that's what just happened.(Disclaimer: cp and iso are the most prized resources for me, so i generally played the minimum amount of pve to get max prog. I also played pvp to 900 because i can't stand the shield cooldown mechanic and don't want to bother with the hassle of 1.2k anymore. Going from 4/6 to 5/6 will add a non-trivial amount of time, but is hardly an insurmountable hurdle for me. Take that bias/perspective fwiw.)
Casuals, new and vets, have been getting the worse end of the changes recently, not even close...
- change in intercepts - net gain for paying players, net lost for non-paying
- change in progression rewards - net gain for players playing hours a day, net loss for casuals.
- nerf to OML: one of the three 5*s a casual vet is likely to have more than ~2-3 covers in and a useful tool for clearing nodes.
- vaulting - likely able to cover all new 4*s if you pull more than one 4* every other day, or else assures you wont be getting any competitive 4*s via pulling anymore.
I play more than "casual", but its disconcerting because I've definitely taken singular events off and played casually, and will likely migrate to that style of play soon... this direction will make me just shelf the game instead of trying to play casually and get increasingly screwed.
Daiches said: Ha.. They made 2 changes where we get more resources for doing the exact same thing as we would normally do. If that doesn't say renew VIP, I don't know what does.Only negative change since last VIP was HFH store price, but since I already had the 3600 price point (but no preview), it actually got a bit better (because of the preview now). Still wish I had gotten the unfair price advantage others had with the 1100 discount, but it's a store option, so not that bad.
Daiches said: Vhailorx said: Daiches said: Ha.. They made 2 changes where we get more resources for doing the exact same thing as we would normally do. If that doesn't say renew VIP, I don't know what does.Only negative change since last VIP was HFH store price, but since I already had the 3600 price point (but no preview), it actually got a bit better (because of the preview now). Still wish I had gotten the unfair price advantage others had with the 1100 discount, but it's a store option, so not that bad. This misses the point. More rewards for those who grind 6/6 already is great. Long overdue.The problem is that demi also made grinding 2-4/6 substantially less rewarding that it was previously. Once again demi takes a step forward and one (or two depending on perspective) big steps backwards. You cant just ignore the negative changes and praise the positive ones. Hence why I said "more for what we normally do". I grind every single PVE from the start to dust. I get more now. I'm buying VIP for ME, not for every casual out there. If they want to feel the same way as I do about the change, let them take out 15 more minutes in 24h to do that fifth clear (or better 5-6-7 on the trivials and essential. Probably same effect as doing 5 on all depending on the event). If you can't do it, I genuinely feel for you as going from 25cp to 8cp is quite rough, and it must really suck. But it's not as if they suddenly require you to perform a Herculean task. People who are missing an essential have it worse than 4cclearmaximum players, but those can't fix it by spending a few more minutes. It's fine to be casual as long as you are ok with casual rewards. If you aren't, you will never be happy.
Vhailorx said: Daiches said: Ha.. They made 2 changes where we get more resources for doing the exact same thing as we would normally do. If that doesn't say renew VIP, I don't know what does.Only negative change since last VIP was HFH store price, but since I already had the 3600 price point (but no preview), it actually got a bit better (because of the preview now). Still wish I had gotten the unfair price advantage others had with the 1100 discount, but it's a store option, so not that bad. This misses the point. More rewards for those who grind 6/6 already is great. Long overdue.The problem is that demi also made grinding 2-4/6 substantially less rewarding that it was previously. Once again demi takes a step forward and one (or two depending on perspective) big steps backwards. You cant just ignore the negative changes and praise the positive ones.
MissChinch said: Hotnfresh said: So far it is NOT a gain to paying players. The resource increases are a LOSS compared to intercepts. Being a paying player, I see 2-5 daily bonus' now compared to over double that previously. Also, so far, most are 500 ISO or 10 HP. Before, I'd see 2000 ISO and 25/100 HP fairly often. VIP is now pointless, unsubbing. I think the idea is that: (new paid node reward system) < (old intercept rewards) HOWEVER:((new paid node reward system) + (increased amount in DDQ)) > (old intercept rewards)I asked for specific limits/distribution for both systems in the announcement thread, without it we'll never really know. (I'm very much NOT expecting a response in that thread, or at all for that matter)
Hotnfresh said: So far it is NOT a gain to paying players. The resource increases are a LOSS compared to intercepts. Being a paying player, I see 2-5 daily bonus' now compared to over double that previously. Also, so far, most are 500 ISO or 10 HP. Before, I'd see 2000 ISO and 25/100 HP fairly often. VIP is now pointless, unsubbing.
I think the idea is that:
(new paid node reward system) < (old intercept rewards)
HOWEVER:
((new paid node reward system) + (increased amount in DDQ)) > (old intercept rewards)
I asked for specific limits/distribution for both systems in the announcement thread, without it we'll never really know. (I'm very much NOT expecting a response in that thread, or at all for that matter)
Hotnfresh said: MissChinch said: Hotnfresh said: So far it is NOT a gain to paying players. The resource increases are a LOSS compared to intercepts. Being a paying player, I see 2-5 daily bonus' now compared to over double that previously. Also, so far, most are 500 ISO or 10 HP. Before, I'd see 2000 ISO and 25/100 HP fairly often. VIP is now pointless, unsubbing. I think the idea is that: (new paid node reward system) < (old intercept rewards) HOWEVER:((new paid node reward system) + (increased amount in DDQ)) > (old intercept rewards)I asked for specific limits/distribution for both systems in the announcement thread, without it we'll never really know. (I'm very much NOT expecting a response in that thread, or at all for that matter) You're right. Will have to crunch some numbers to truly see. But my spidey senses tell me the two are still less than intercepts. When's the last time they changed something to be in the players' favor?-- never.
Hotnfresh said: MissChinch said: Hotnfresh said: So far it is NOT a gain to paying players. The resource increases are a LOSS compared to intercepts. Being a paying player, I see 2-5 daily bonus' now compared to over double that previously. Also, so far, most are 500 ISO or 10 HP. Before, I'd see 2000 ISO and 25/100 HP fairly often. VIP is now pointless, unsubbing. I think the idea is that: (new paid node reward system) < (old intercept rewards) HOWEVER:((new paid node reward system) + (increased amount in DDQ)) > (old intercept rewards)I asked for specific limits/distribution for both systems in the announcement thread, without it we'll never really know. (I'm very much NOT expecting a response in that thread, or at all for that matter) You're right. Will have to crunch some numbers to truly see. But my spidey senses tell me the two are still less than intercepts. When's the last time they changed something to be in the players' favor?-- never. This is just ignorant. They benefit from happy players that play and spend regularly, so the intent is for ALL changes to be in the players' favor.Also, remember when they launched shield ranks and everyone got a massive influx of ISO?
Crnch73 said: I agree with Fightmaster, that their intent is to always make stuff better. Unfortunately, they have done nothing but fail (or move laterally) for months now. This may be a foggy memory, but has their been anything that was received well by the majority since SCL7? Here are the list of good (or great) changes I can remember:- DDQ- champion levels- shield ranking (and the influx of ISO that came with it)- SCL's, especially those that allowed us to earn 4's through progression- the new events, like Coulson/GotG one-shots, Strange Sights, thanos daily at xmas time- intercepts were great when they workedSo I guess those new events are currently happening (hopefully they never stop), but other than that? It's been a while since I have felt their attempts at good changes were even remotely good. SCL7 was the last truly good thing I remember. Since then, we have mediocre attempts:- vaulting (terrible outcome)- more 4's being released extremely fast, but they are still hard to acquire overall (more of the same)- bonus heroes having ridiculously low drop rates (lateral move)- SCL8 being a joke (borderline insulting)- HfH store, showing that they still overvalue the 4 star tier (actually insulting)- ISO "canyon" only getting deeper (more of the same)- 5 clears to hit max progression. Why? that doesn't even mention the bugs! This game is unfortunately trending in the wrong direction. I beg of the development team, please make something good for us! Test it out, and make sure it works! I don't want to lose interest, I am hanging on but I am fading fast.
Vhailorx said: I mostly agree with you fight (shock!).Obviously you continue to be wrong about vaulting. (We could have both better individual character odds for every character and solve dilution. Demi just chose not to implement a solution that does both.)
Crnch73 said: - bonus heroes having ridiculously low drop rates (lateral move)
Fightmastermpq said:But to call BH a lateral move is tinykitty. It's a flat 5% more covers than you were getting previously. Period. It's not lateral. Lateral would be 0%. It's certainly a positive move - and you can even quantify it at 5%. No to mention you can pick your BH so it removes a lot of RNG from the system that we have been complaining about since the dawn of time.
Vhailorx said: But BH is a pure positive system for players.
Fightmastermpq said: The only way to increase the individual character odds for every character is to grow the 48 pulls you get to some larger number, and D3 just isn't going to do that. They aren't just going to give away more covers.To put it another way. Imagine D3 came to you and said, "you get 48 covers this month, what 48 do you want?" I think the VAST majority of us would do one of two things - either apply all 48 to 1 or a handful of our best characters, or use them max cover as many characters as possible - take 3 characters from 0 to 13, and use all 9 of the rest on a 4th character or as champ levels to the first 3. What hardly anyone would do is say "yeah, give me 1 for each character." Because we all recognize that slowly adding covers across the board is slow and doesn't make us very competitive. Recognizing this they implementing vaulting as we know it. Basically choosing the newest 12 for us and creating a system where we are constantly making meaningful progress on those newest 12 characters over time. Obviously they could have let us all pick exactly what covers we wanted, but that's not good for the diversity and health of the game.
The only way to increase the individual character odds for every character is to grow the 48 pulls you get to some larger number, and D3 just isn't going to do that. They aren't just going to give away more covers.
Beer40 said: Crnch73 said: - bonus heroes having ridiculously low drop rates (lateral move) Fightmastermpq said:But to call BH a lateral move is tinykitty. It's a flat 5% more covers than you were getting previously. Period. It's not lateral. Lateral would be 0%. It's certainly a positive move - and you can even quantify it at 5%. No to mention you can pick your BH so it removes a lot of RNG from the system that we have been complaining about since the dawn of time. Vhailorx said: But BH is a pure positive system for players. All these opinions of BH! I think if it were actually a flat 5% for everyone (it is NOT) then people would view it as less of a negative. If you're guaranteed 1 BH every 20 covers then it is what it is. Still a low rate, in my opinion, but guaranteed is always better than chance. The problem in BH is that there are too many people that aren't getting 5% (they've said, I can't confirm) which also means there are too many people getting more than 5%. And no one is going to like a system with already low odds when they are on the wrong side of that %. Because they "know" someone in their PVE or PVP bracket is on the other side of those odds.I'm neutral on BH mostly. I have never gotten a 5*, only recently pulled my first 4*, and "feel" like I'm probably around the 5% of 3*...but I could totally be above or below it.Is getting covers for free great? Yes. Is getting 1 cover for free while your competition gets 5 covers for free great? No.That is why people don't like BH. Its another layer of RNG that seems not in their favor.
Just out of curiosity, would you like a system for LT/CP pulls that guaranteed 6 4*s in a row then a 5* and for the 20th 4* you get your bonus, same goes with your 20th 5*... on schedule, and being able to see where you were on that track like you can see in the daily resupply? You just see that its a future 4* cover, not which one, same with the future 5* covers?
Randomness in what hero you pull, but not in distribution of *tier or BH... ?
It would do nothing in terms of giving players more resources or more heroes, it may be more psychologically acceptable though...
MissChinch said: Beer40 said: Crnch73 said: - bonus heroes having ridiculously low drop rates (lateral move) Fightmastermpq said:But to call BH a lateral move is tinykitty. It's a flat 5% more covers than you were getting previously. Period. It's not lateral. Lateral would be 0%. It's certainly a positive move - and you can even quantify it at 5%. No to mention you can pick your BH so it removes a lot of RNG from the system that we have been complaining about since the dawn of time. Vhailorx said: But BH is a pure positive system for players. All these opinions of BH! I think if it were actually a flat 5% for everyone (it is NOT) then people would view it as less of a negative. If you're guaranteed 1 BH every 20 covers then it is what it is. Still a low rate, in my opinion, but guaranteed is always better than chance. The problem in BH is that there are too many people that aren't getting 5% (they've said, I can't confirm) which also means there are too many people getting more than 5%. And no one is going to like a system with already low odds when they are on the wrong side of that %. Because they "know" someone in their PVE or PVP bracket is on the other side of those odds.I'm neutral on BH mostly. I have never gotten a 5*, only recently pulled my first 4*, and "feel" like I'm probably around the 5% of 3*...but I could totally be above or below it.Is getting covers for free great? Yes. Is getting 1 cover for free while your competition gets 5 covers for free great? No.That is why people don't like BH. Its another layer of RNG that seems not in their favor. Just out of curiosity, would you like a system for LT/CP pulls that guaranteed 6 4*s in a row then a 5* and for the 20th 4* you get your bonus, same goes with your 20th 5*... on schedule, and being able to see where you were on that track like you can see in the daily resupply? You just see that its a future 4* cover, not which one, same with the future 5* covers?Randomness in what hero you pull, but not in distribution of *tier or BH... ?It would do nothing in terms of giving players more resources or more heroes, it may be more psychologically acceptable though... it may be more psychologically acceptable though...
Beer40 said: Crnch73 said: - bonus heroes having ridiculously low drop rates (lateral move) Fightmastermpq said:But to call BH a lateral move is tinykitty. It's a flat 5% more covers than you were getting previously. Period. It's not lateral. Lateral would be 0%. It's certainly a positive move - and you can even quantify it at 5%. No to mention you can pick your BH so it removes a lot of RNG from the system that we have been complaining about since the dawn of time. Vhailorx said: But BH is a pure positive system for players. All these opinions of BH! I think if it were actually a flat 5% for everyone (it is NOT) then people would view it as less of a negative. If you're guaranteed 1 BH every 20 covers then it is what it is. Still a low rate, in my opinion, but guaranteed is always better than chance. The problem in BH is that there are too many people that aren't getting 5% (they've said, I can't confirm) which also means there are too many people getting more than 5%. And no one is going to like a system with already low odds when they are on the wrong side of that %. Because they "know" someone in their PVE or PVP bracket is on the other side of those odds.I'm neutral on BH mostly. I have never gotten a 5*, only recently pulled my first 4*, and "feel" like I'm probably around the 5% of 3*...but I could totally be above or below it.Is getting covers for free great? Yes. Is getting 1 cover for free while your competition gets 5 covers for free great? No.That is why people don't like BH. Its another layer of RNG that seems not in their favor. Just out of curiosity, would you like a system for LT/CP pulls that guaranteed 6 4*s in a row then a 5* and for the 20th 4* you get your bonus, same goes with your 20th 5*... on schedule, and being able to see where you were on that track like you can see in the daily resupply? You just see that its a future 4* cover, not which one, same with the future 5* covers?Randomness in what hero you pull, but not in distribution of *tier or BH... ?It would do nothing in terms of giving players more resources or more heroes, it may be more psychologically acceptable though...
it may be more psychologically acceptable though...
MissChinch said:It would do nothing in terms of giving players more resources or more heroes, it may be more psychologically acceptable though...
Felonius said: I feel you, @Beer40... Today my VIP came up for renewal, and for the first time since it's inception, I hesitated... I haven't renewed. I'm giving it a "cool down" period, to consider if I want to. On one hand... $10 bucks means little to me in the grand scheme of my life. In a general sense, I do not have any issue with paying for a video game (why when I was a kid we had to pay $0.25 each time!), and I play MPQ a lot (damn you addiction! lol), so I used to be happy to support the company. But these last couple months, issues have grown to make me take pause. There's the handling of Vaulting (or in my opinion, lack thereof), OML Nerf, continued unaddressed bugs, etc. And those are just the flat out Bad Things.Even when they add positive features to the game, they're tarnishing it with negativity... Bonus Heroes were great, but Vaulting, ick! HfH Store: Finally an option to Direct-Buy 4* covers, but IMHO I thought 2400 was too much, now 3600 takes it way to high to be of interest to me (YMMV, and that's fine).... Add more rewards to DDQ, but that's because Shield Intercepts were taken away (well, honestly, I was getting SI for free w/VIP, so if I keep VIP, I'm actually getting a net positive on this, but the fact it was done because they fudged-up something again... well... just another blunder). And now more PvE prizes, Yay! But requires more work, Boo! (...Well, ok, again, I usually do full six clears, so probably nothing but an improvement for me, but again, it's their way of thinking I don't like, ergo tarnished...)So, I dunno... I expect I will renew VIP one more time, but it's no longer an easy thing to do. If things continue being "bad", it will get more likely that I won't renew the next time, and so on, until I finally do stop.
I feel you, @Beer40... Today my VIP came up for renewal, and for the first time since it's inception, I hesitated... I haven't renewed. I'm giving it a "cool down" period, to consider if I want to.
On one hand... $10 bucks means little to me in the grand scheme of my life. In a general sense, I do not have any issue with paying for a video game (why when I was a kid we had to pay $0.25 each time!), and I play MPQ a lot (damn you addiction! lol), so I used to be happy to support the company.
But these last couple months, issues have grown to make me take pause. There's the handling of Vaulting (or in my opinion, lack thereof), OML Nerf, continued unaddressed bugs, etc. And those are just the flat out Bad Things.
Even when they add positive features to the game, they're tarnishing it with negativity... Bonus Heroes were great, but Vaulting, ick! HfH Store: Finally an option to Direct-Buy 4* covers, but IMHO I thought 2400 was too much, now 3600 takes it way to high to be of interest to me (YMMV, and that's fine).... Add more rewards to DDQ, but that's because Shield Intercepts were taken away (well, honestly, I was getting SI for free w/VIP, so if I keep VIP, I'm actually getting a net positive on this, but the fact it was done because they fudged-up something again... well... just another blunder). And now more PvE prizes, Yay! But requires more work, Boo! (...Well, ok, again, I usually do full six clears, so probably nothing but an improvement for me, but again, it's their way of thinking I don't like, ergo tarnished...)
So, I dunno... I expect I will renew VIP one more time, but it's no longer an easy thing to do. If things continue being "bad", it will get more likely that I won't renew the next time, and so on, until I finally do stop.