Does Vaulting solve the problem of all types of dilution?

Beer40

We aren't all on the same page with the definition of dilution. For this poll, dilution is simply weakening or watering down of something. 

People have expressed that Vaulting was created to help with pack dilution. Do you think this is working and solves the problem?
Others feel by locking off higher champ levels and certain characters, that Vaulting is creating a roster dilution (weakening). Do you feel Vaulting is diluting your potential roster strength?

My apologies for not being more clear from the start and for also resorting to name calling.

Beer40

No

It hasn't helped me at all. I was just starting in the 4* transition so I didn't have much waste at all. Now I have enough (plus lack of ISO) that I had to stop pulling and start hoarding.

Skrofa

In before lock. You need a third option like "maybe"

Beer40

No

Skrofa said:

In before lock. You need a third option like "maybe"

Possibly, but I don't think so. At this stage of vaulting its a simple question: Is this solving your dillution or not? Everyone who votes should know how its working for them. Yea, it could change over time, but then we can create a new poll at that point.

revskip

Yes

Helped me quite a bit.  I was always hoarding though so if you are an instant gratification kind of person YMMV.

broll

No

For people who already had many all of the older 4*s, yes it does.

To the rest of of mere mortals, no it didn't.

If they want it to solve dillusion then they need to fully remove the vaulted characters from the game.  Otherwise the newer players (who are already at a disadvantage) get further disadvantaged by:
- The need to roster every character for character requirements
- Having to fight against people with boosted required characters in PvP that they have no hope of ever attaining now.

Vaulting flips the dillusion problem on it's head.  

Pre-Vaulting:
I have to roster these new characters that won't be useful for over a year!! This sucks!!

Post-Vaulting:
I have to roster all these old characters that will never, ever be useful!!  This sucks even worse!!

Add to this it caps the level you will get for most of your 4* based on how quickly you churn through the tokens while the blessed 12 are blessed.

NOTE: I'm not suggesting that removing the vaulted characters from the game is the correct or desired solution, my point is that is the only way they want to fix it, they stopped halfway creating negative results.  They would be better off finding better ways to combat dillusion.

Jaedenkaal

Yes

This poll totally depends on your answer to the separate and unaddressed question: "Was dilution a problem for me, in my opinion, before vaulting was introduced"

SnowcaTT

No

Checks 5* classic rate.

NOPE.

Fightmastermpq

Yes

The options should be:

Yes.
I don't understand what the dilution problem is.

Jaedenkaal

Yes

Fightmastermpq said:

The options should be:

Yes.
I don't understand what the dilution problem is.

Well that's what the answers break down to, certainly. And it's sad how true this is.

SnowcaTT said:

Checks 5* classic rate.

NOPE.

Not sure how this applies since this particular vaulting process has nothing to do with 5*s nor does the poll indicate that 5* dilution is the issue at hand.

(If anything the BH feature that was released at the same time slightly improves the 5* classic rate. And yes I understand they could have released BH separately from vaulting and no I don't think it's an adequate solution to the 5* draw rate. It is, however, unarguably an improvement)

JHawkInc

No

Short answer is No.

Long answer is that Vaulting was a group of solutions to fix a group of problems, a system overhaul instead of a point-to-point fix.

Reality is, Vaulting was a paper-pushing fix. We had a cluttered desk, we just rearranged the papers all over it, and declared it done. What we have is just a new mess, with new problems.

There are many benefits to vaulting, but those benefits are watered down by all the new problems it brings, and right now, we need the opposite of dilution. We drastically need a way to acquire older 4*s. (I'm going to ignore the 3*s because the gameplan seems to be to shuffle people into 4* territory faster, rather than fixing the problems in the 3* section of the game, like the dozen plus characters that need a buff).

Sadly, this just brings us to the point of "How about old Classic Legends that only have the vaulted characters?" But we've been saying that for so long that I think if we painted it on bricks, stood in the Dev's offices, and LITERALLY THREW BRICKS AT THEM they still wouldn't take a freaking hint.

Jaedenkaal

Yes

JHawkInc said:

Short answer is No.

Long answer is that Vaulting was a group of solutions to fix a group of problems, a system overhaul instead of a point-to-point fix.

Reality is, Vaulting was a paper-pushing fix. We had a cluttered desk, we just rearranged the papers all over it, and declared it done. What we have is just a new mess, with new problems.

There are many benefits to vaulting, but those benefits are watered down by all the new problems it brings, and right now, we need the opposite of dilution. We drastically need a way to acquire older 4*s. (I'm going to ignore the 3*s because the gameplan seems to be to shuffle people into 4* territory faster, rather than fixing the problems in the 3* section of the game, like the dozen plus characters that need a buff).

Sadly, this just brings us to the point of "How about old Classic Legends that only have the vaulted characters?" But we've been saying that for so long that I think if we painted it on bricks, stood in the Dev's offices, and LITERALLY THREW BRICKS AT THEM they still wouldn't take a freaking hint.

"Yes, but it also had a lot of other implications, many of which I don't like" is still "Yes" for the poll, it is not "No"

Steellatch

No

I wonder if this poll will get closed because it doesn't have a neutral option

drayviper32

Yes

Works for me!

MissChinch

No

Does it solve the problem of people complaining at a new character release about being able to use them in a year or so?  Yup, that problem is solved

Does it solve the problem of dilution? Seems almost laughable, before I had increasingly bad odds on covering a 4* character, now I am unable to pull the vast majority of the tier...  Adding more characters dilutes the tier, restricting me from pulling most of them doesn't "un-dilute" the tier.

Jaedenkaal

Yes

MissChinch said:

Does it solve the problem of people complaining at a new character release about being able to use them in a year or so?  Yup, that problem is solved

Does it solve the problem of dilution? Seems almost laughable, before I had increasingly bad odds on covering a 4* character, now I am unable to pull the vast majority of the tier...  Adding more characters dilutes the tier, restricting me from pulling most of them doesn't "un-dilute" the tier.

"Yes, but it also had a lot of other implications, many of which I don't like" is still "Yes" for the poll, it is not "No"

Sure, I can vote any way I like on a poll, as long as I scratch out the question and substitute my own. 

For reference, the "dilution" that is being discussed that may or may not have been "solved" by vaulting, is the dilution explicitly described in Dave's answer here:

Pack dilution is the fact that since comic packs contain ALL characters ever released, each new character release “dilutes” the chance of drawing a given character of that rarity.

That's the problem. Tokens (not the tier) contain too many characters, so drawing a specific character available in that token is extremely unlikely.

Has vaulting solved this? Yes, yes it has. Did it have other effects that you may or may not  enjoy? Sure. Is the poll question and available answer list about those other effects? No. 

JHawkInc

No

Jaedenkaal said:

JHawkInc said:

Short answer is No.

Long answer is that Vaulting was a group of solutions to fix a group of problems, a system overhaul instead of a point-to-point fix.

Reality is, Vaulting was a paper-pushing fix. We had a cluttered desk, we just rearranged the papers all over it, and declared it done. What we have is just a new mess, with new problems.

There are many benefits to vaulting, but those benefits are watered down by all the new problems it brings, and right now, we need the opposite of dilution. We drastically need a way to acquire older 4*s. (I'm going to ignore the 3*s because the gameplan seems to be to shuffle people into 4* territory faster, rather than fixing the problems in the 3* section of the game, like the dozen plus characters that need a buff).

Sadly, this just brings us to the point of "How about old Classic Legends that only have the vaulted characters?" But we've been saying that for so long that I think if we painted it on bricks, stood in the Dev's offices, and LITERALLY THREW BRICKS AT THEM they still wouldn't take a freaking hint.

"Yes, but it also had a lot of other implications, many of which I don't like" is still "Yes" for the poll, it is not "No"

Odds used to be really really low for every character. Now they are decent for 12 characters, and ZERO for over three times as many others.

Vaulting did not fix the dilution problem. So the answer is "No."

deadtaco

No

Nope.  I'm sitting on 1.5 million ISO bc vaulting cut off the 4* I was building up and I never seem to get enough of the new 12 to champ them.   My peggy is up to 14/3/2 - as much as I want to champ it I can never get the covers.

BH doesn't help - I have only pulled 1 4* BH since it started and I have spent every CP and LT I have gotten.

Progression in PVE is the only reliable source.  Progression in PVP is impossible unless you have multiple 4* champs already.  Top whatever in PVE and PVP is impossible due to the crazies that grind endlessly.

Jaedenkaal

Yes

JHawkInc said:

Vaulting did not fix the dilution problem. So the answer is "No."

The characters available in the tokens are considerably less diluted than they were before. 

You might as well complain about 4* dilution in elite tokens.

NewMcG

Yes

JHawkInc said:

Jaedenkaal said:

JHawkInc said:

Short answer is No.

Long answer is that Vaulting was a group of solutions to fix a group of problems, a system overhaul instead of a point-to-point fix.

Reality is, Vaulting was a paper-pushing fix. We had a cluttered desk, we just rearranged the papers all over it, and declared it done. What we have is just a new mess, with new problems.

There are many benefits to vaulting, but those benefits are watered down by all the new problems it brings, and right now, we need the opposite of dilution. We drastically need a way to acquire older 4*s. (I'm going to ignore the 3*s because the gameplan seems to be to shuffle people into 4* territory faster, rather than fixing the problems in the 3* section of the game, like the dozen plus characters that need a buff).

Sadly, this just brings us to the point of "How about old Classic Legends that only have the vaulted characters?" But we've been saying that for so long that I think if we painted it on bricks, stood in the Dev's offices, and LITERALLY THREW BRICKS AT THEM they still wouldn't take a freaking hint.

"Yes, but it also had a lot of other implications, many of which I don't like" is still "Yes" for the poll, it is not "No"

Odds used to be really really low for every character. Now they are decent for 12 characters, and ZERO for over three times as many others.

Vaulting did not fix the dilution problem. So the answer is "No."

Again, what you refer to has nothing to do with actual "dilution". Dilution is about spreading odds thin across a token. If you have a 1 gallon container that is 50% alcohol and add 3 gallon of water to it, you are diluting it. The relevant portion to the discussion becomes significantly thinner. Taking characters out of tokens helps with dilution, the same way that removing the water from that solution makes the alcohol portion stronger.

What you refer to is "character availability", which is a whole other discussion.

zodiac339

Yes

I'll start with changes I'd like.
1. Stop calling it "vaulting": The game already has vaults. Any non-release PVE, along with Tacos, are Vaults. If anything is vaulted, it's the contents of a vault. The characters taken out of rotation have been "archived" by the developers, taken out of the primary rotation and put into less frequently used storage. (I know, I know. This was the community's fault, not the developers).
2. Offer the Vintage Legendary store: Many have asked for this. Bonus Heroes is only a partial solution for players needing to build old characters. And archiving means that adding Champion Levels for the archived heroes becomes glacially slow. It doesn't have to be a different price from Classic Legendary. We just need the option.
3. Archive the oldest Epic heroes: Legendary characters aren't the only ones feeling dilution. Archiving Epics would also require the Vintage Legendaries from point 2.

Now, all that aside, archiving has been fantastic for me. With many of my Legendaries already built up and Championed, the number no longer readily available hasn't been an issue. There are some I didn't get to finish yet, but with ISO rate meaning 10 to 14 days to Champ a given Legendary, I couldn't deal with all of them anyway. But the biggest benefit is:
I can make a plan. If pulling from the legendary store meant "1 of 50 different characters", I'm almost guaranteed to not build someone newer. Now, I can have the older characters sit back and wait for events to finish them up while the ISO trickles in. Meanwhile, Cloak and Dagger is at 5 covers, but Hobofist is already at 10, and Mordo is at 12. Everyone else is at 13 covers. Now I can wait for the ISO to get all the ones art 13 covers Champed before making another pull. I could then have a cycle of saving ISO for 2 weeks, then pulling Legendary store until I reach 13 covers on someone, then saving up for 2 more weeks. I also have a current plan of "at least wait for Agent Venom to retire." Doesn't that sound like a nice plan?

EDIT: ... I put this in the wrong thread. I meant to comment in the other pole, where I'd actually voted. I am become Fail.