The Death of Passion

Ohboy

There was a time I was excited about getting rares and felt mythics were out of reach for me to expect much. I even still remember how happy I was to get the 6/6 renowned colossus(which is so redundant now I've forgotten the name)

Kind of like the masterpiece/mythics scenario now. 

And then they flooded us with crystals, rares and mythics. Decks building went out the window, and everyone just built the same decks. Basically you're asking them to go back to giving tons of mythics(and masterpieces!) out(this time even better because you can select the limited pool it draws from) 

I think you guys are in for a rude awakening for just how valuable jewels are once we roll into a new expansion where mythics are no longer free, and you've burnt up all your stockpiled crystals. 

shteev

Ohboy said:

I think you guys are in for a rude awakening for just how valuable jewels are once we roll into a new expansion where mythics are no longer free, and you've burnt up all your stockpiled crystals.

Yeah, we are pretty stupid.

Ohboy

shteev said:

Ohboy said:

I think you guys are in for a rude awakening for just how valuable jewels are once we roll into a new expansion where mythics are no longer free, and you've burnt up all your stockpiled crystals.

Yeah, we are pretty stupid.

You have more jewels stocked than me. You're not stupid. I don't know what you are, but it's not stupid. 

Sarahschmara

Ohboy said:

I think you guys are in for a rude awakening for just how valuable jewels are once we roll into a new expansion where mythics are no longer free, and you've burnt up all your stockpiled crystals. 

But that's exactly the missed point. We were arguing to lift each other up and you wanted to drag us* down. 

*I mean "us" in the greater sense. I lead a top 25 team and have a giant ego so I joined forces with a top ten team to have a safe space to kick those infuriatingly good players that outscore me on a regular basis. So I get a bit confused about which underserved group you keep referring to. We have enthusiastic players from newbies to veterans, old school paper players and kids that were born after ice age. 

And precisely zero of them benefit under the "less is more" reward structure. 

jetnoctis

DuskPaladin said:

@AngelForge , don't worry, no offense taken.

Now, let's take last Breaking Point, the top 50 in each 3 000 players bracket in Platinum received Rishkar's Expertise. Let's say it's always the same 50 players who always earn the rewards. Now imagine that we made smaller brackets of 1 000 players, now it wouldn't only be those same 50 players, we'll have tripled the number of players who will get the rewards, so 100 new so-called riches. We could add even more brackets, rewards for the top 100 players, etc. 

I talk about the mythic reward because it was the only interesting reward that kept people motivated. A guaranteed rare is not an interesting reward, nor 60 crystals, nor 20 Mana Jewels. Something equivalent to a mythic should be the golden standard for the top prize, and you scale from there according for the rest of the rewards. The problem for many players was that the gap between getting a mythic or a rare was too great. We have jewels now for that.

For instance:

Top 5: 400 Mana Jewels (= 1 guaranteed mythic)
6-25: 350 Mana Jewels
26-50: 300 Mana Jewels
51-100: 250 Mana Jewels
etc.

I'm not suggesting that we should use those numbers (they are just random untested numbers), but we can see now how the gap between the "rich" and the "poor" wouldn't be so great.

You could lower the rewards even further to:
Top 5 200 Mana Jewels
6-25: 175 Mana Jewels
etc.

As long as it's not something as meaningless as 20 Mana Jewels.

I totally agree with this sentiment; if not a guaranteed mythic, then at least enough jewels to warrant us really wanting to aim for the top and win.

If the top prize bracket in every event used to give a guaranteed mythic, we could equate that as being worth 400 jewels. Like DuskPaladin said, if the devs feel that was too much, they could at least make it so that getting top 5 would net you half that amount. Mind you, no one is guaranteed to get top 5 every single event, so it will still take you some time to get enough crystals so no one is going to be pulling the slot machine every day. A different amount could work too.

As it is with just a few crystals up on the line, why should we we even strive? It has taken me since the start of the jewel update to get 620 crystals. Mind you, that's with having been doing quite well personally and with my coalition. So subtract the 100 we got given, that's about 500 crystals in how long? Months? Yaaaawn. We're growing bored and bored people don't stay and they certainly do not pay. 

Ohboy

Sarahschmara said:

Ohboy said:

I think you guys are in for a rude awakening for just how valuable jewels are once we roll into a new expansion where mythics are no longer free, and you've burnt up all your stockpiled crystals. 

But that's exactly the missed point. We were arguing to lift each other up and you wanted to drag us* down. 

*I mean "us" in the greater sense. I lead a top 25 team and have a giant ego so I joined forces with a top ten team to have a safe space to kick those infuriatingly good players that outscore me on a regular basis. So I get a bit confused about which underserved group you keep referring to. We have enthusiastic players from newbies to veterans, old school paper players and kids that were born after ice age. 

And precisely zero of them benefit under the "less is more" reward structure. 

You're surprised that a top 25 coalition is not benefiting from a change that spreads rewards on a thinner gradient? 

I'm advocating that resources be pumped in at the bottom(higher rewards for the lower ranks) and less for the top(trickle down economics with such an illiquid economy?) 

My argument is simple. Top rewards in events that give already good players an edge simply creates a positive feedback loop that holds new/weaker players forever at bay. The suggestion kicked around recently is rare cosmetic prizes, which I wholeheartedly agree with. By taking those prizes away, they can give more to the bottom to help out the weaker/newer players. The standard of competition increases, and we all rise TOGETHER. This is the direction change the devs have started on, and I want them to see it through instead of chickening out as usual(which ends up with situations where no one benefits at all) . Raising all boats is good for everyone unless you're the reigning class and doesn't want to see your dominance diluted. It's just good for any game. 

I'm not dragging you down. But I can see why you might see it that way if you're off to a headstart and want to protect that lead.  

We play for rewards now because rewards are all that's left. Opponents are too easy on average.  But at some point we all went through the journey of facing challenging opponents. We struggled to beat strong decks and enjoyed the struggle. We could get that back. Just give the lower ranks a chance to catch up and give you a decent fight. That's never going to happen if all you care about is staying ahead. 

Sarahschmara

Ohboy said:

Sarahschmara said:

Ohboy said:

I think you guys are in for a rude awakening for just how valuable jewels are once we roll into a new expansion where mythics are no longer free, and you've burnt up all your stockpiled crystals. 

But that's exactly the missed point. We were arguing to lift each other up and you wanted to drag us* down. 

*I mean "us" in the greater sense. I lead a top 25 team and have a giant ego so I joined forces with a top ten team to have a safe space to kick those infuriatingly good players that outscore me on a regular basis. So I get a bit confused about which underserved group you keep referring to. We have enthusiastic players from newbies to veterans, old school paper players and kids that were born after ice age. 

And precisely zero of them benefit under the "less is more" reward structure. 

You're surprised that a top 25 coalition is not benefiting from a change that spreads rewards on a thinner gradient? 

I'm advocating that resources be pumped in at the bottom(higher rewards for the lower ranks) and less for the top(trickle down economics with such an illiquid economy?) 

My argument is simple. Top rewardsI'm not dragging you down. But I can see why you might see it that way if you're off to a headstart and want to protect that lead.  

We play for rewards now because rewards are all that's left. Opponents are too easy on average.  But at some point we all went through the journey of facing challenging opponents. We struggled to beat strong decks and enjoyed the struggle. We could get that back. Just give the lower ranks a chance to catch up and give you a decent fight. That's never going to happen if all you care about is staying ahead. 

And this is where I get so frustrated with your arguments. We're obviously headed towards the same destinations, but we have very different opinions on how best to get there. 

I want to make more room on the high-speed train...and you want to force everyone to ride tricycles. 

THEMAGICkMAN

Honestly, the end solution is a tricky one. 

The already end-game players want to stay at the top of the pack right? But the newer players want to get up there. This creates a bit of a tricky situation. 

Give the top players lots of rewards and it's a rich getting richer situation which isn't good. 

Give the small fries good rewards and everyone clumps up at the top, which wouldn't be good. 

Give EVERYONE good rewards and then you get already good players get even better and other players are left behind. The solution is to find a balance where top players still have a reason to be competitive and newbies feel like they're progressing and on their way. This balance has never really been quite right in this game. 

My personal idea for a solution 

Cosmetic prizes for top players is a start, but I really don't think that would appeal to all top players. Not everyone is a collecter and wants to show off. There would have to be some other smaller bonuses that affect gameplay up for grabs. Not OP cards (looking at you Rishkars Expertise) but not **** stuff either (looking at you planar Bridge) but useable, decent cards. The addition of standard brings this idea up a notch, give em good cards, but don't make them standard legal so as not to warp the format. That'd probably do it. Make as many Rishkars Expertises and Barals as you want, but for the love of [insert-religious-entity] don't make them standard legal. At the same time, give newbies a bunch of rewards to help them on their way. Not packs, crystals. Keep the bracket sizes low (so as not to clump platinum and gold up hugely) and there you go. You've got a decent balance. Not perfect, but a hell of a lot better than what we've got now. 

Ohboy

Sarahschmara said:

Ohboy said:

Sarahschmara said:

Ohboy said:

I think you guys are in for a rude awakening for just how valuable jewels are once we roll into a new expansion where mythics are no longer free, and you've burnt up all your stockpiled crystals. 

But that's exactly the missed point. We were arguing to lift each other up and you wanted to drag us* down. 

*I mean "us" in the greater sense. I lead a top 25 team and have a giant ego so I joined forces with a top ten team to have a safe space to kick those infuriatingly good players that outscore me on a regular basis. So I get a bit confused about which underserved group you keep referring to. We have enthusiastic players from newbies to veterans, old school paper players and kids that were born after ice age. 

And precisely zero of them benefit under the "less is more" reward structure. 

You're surprised that a top 25 coalition is not benefiting from a change that spreads rewards on a thinner gradient? 

I'm advocating that resources be pumped in at the bottom(higher rewards for the lower ranks) and less for the top(trickle down economics with such an illiquid economy?) 

My argument is simple. Top rewardsI'm not dragging you down. But I can see why you might see it that way if you're off to a headstart and want to protect that lead.  

We play for rewards now because rewards are all that's left. Opponents are too easy on average.  But at some point we all went through the journey of facing challenging opponents. We struggled to beat strong decks and enjoyed the struggle. We could get that back. Just give the lower ranks a chance to catch up and give you a decent fight. That's never going to happen if all you care about is staying ahead. 

And this is where I get so frustrated with your arguments. We're obviously headed towards the same destinations, but we have very different opinions on how best to get there. 

I want to make more room on the high-speed train...and you want to force everyone to ride tricycles. 

I would love public high speed trains, but what everyone here(who already has train tickets) is doing is insisting their train go faster, which cannot be done if you want to let everyone make it to catch the train. 

If you share my hope that everyone gets to hit the certain competitive level faster, then you must also recognize that the way to do it fastest is to not let those in the lead run away with it. 

Sarahschmara

Ohboy said:

Sarahschmara said:

Ohboy said:

Sarahschmara said:

Ohboy said:

I think you guys are in for a rude awakening for just how valuable jewels are once we roll into a new expansion where mythics are no longer free, and you've burnt up all your stockpiled crystals. 

But that's exactly the missed point. We were arguing to lift each other up and you wanted to drag us* down. 

*I mean "us" in the greater sense. I lead a top 25 team and have a giant ego so I joined forces with a top ten team to have a safe space to kick those infuriatingly good players that outscore me on a regular basis. So I get a bit confused about which underserved group you keep referring to. We have enthusiastic players from newbies to veterans, old school paper players and kids that were born after ice age. 

And precisely zero of them benefit under the "less is more" reward structure. 

You're surprised that a top 25 coalition is not benefiting from a change that spreads rewards on a thinner gradient? 

I'm advocating that resources be pumped in at the bottom(higher rewards for the lower ranks) and less for the top(trickle down economics with such an illiquid economy?) 

My argument is simple. Top rewardsI'm not dragging you down. But I can see why you might see it that way if you're off to a headstart and want to protect that lead.  

We play for rewards now because rewards are all that's left. Opponents are too easy on average.  But at some point we all went through the journey of facing challenging opponents. We struggled to beat strong decks and enjoyed the struggle. We could get that back. Just give the lower ranks a chance to catch up and give you a decent fight. That's never going to happen if all you care about is staying ahead. 

And this is where I get so frustrated with your arguments. We're obviously headed towards the same destinations, but we have very different opinions on how best to get there. 

I want to make more room on the high-speed train...and you want to force everyone to ride tricycles. 

I would love public high speed trains, but what everyone here(who already has train tickets) is doing is insisting their train go faster, which cannot be done if you want to let everyone make it to catch the train. 

If you share my hope that everyone gets to hit the certain competitive level faster, then you must also recognize that the way to do it fastest is to not let those in the lead run away with it. 

Wait? What?! No! We need to give everyone a running start at the super-exciting end game!

jetnoctis

Pretty soon, barely anyone will be in the lead or be able to stay in the lead. For AKH, those who are likely to be 'in the lead' are the established veterans because we were able to get mythics for roughly half the duration of KLD/AER. But once the block after AKH/HOD comes around, and if they ditch Origins in favour of a new core set, then everybody will be on a more level playing field - except the spenders. It seems to me, @OhBoy, that what you are a proponent of is no one getting ahead of anyone else, but those who spend money? Therefore, I should assume you to be a whale and you encourage everyone to follow suit? 

The previous system with mythic prizes gave  any person willing to work hard and put in effort and the grind, the chance to place in the top bracket. Not overnight, but it was possible. I know it because I was one of those people. And while it is true that it is a positive feedback loop, it is not a completely exclusionary feedback loop. I've seen multiple players start off with low/mediocre collections and through determination and time they rose straight to the top, because getting top place once gave them a tool to help them improve their chances to do it again the next time. What about now? There is no way that any player, especially those just starting, can ever match what some of us already have. The once a month event exclusive mythics we've had up for grabs were only relevant to this discussion twice - Dynavolt & Rishkar's Expertise. And how long have we been with KLD/AER? 4-5 months?  (I'm not 100% sure, seems forever) That's been only two opportunities to improve one's collection to the point of improving your chances to break into the top (other than guaranteed mythics before that was slashed). The only thing this change has done is remove ANY chance that new players will ever beat us veterans. As it stands now, I  have 84 mythics. Beat all the EOs and FiRFs and NoPs and RatCs all you want but no new player will ever even come close to anywhere near that number. The result? Everybody has weak decks, which makes fights boring. Challenge is decreasing in this game and it will only keep decreasing when no one is getting any good cards and all we're playing against are uncommon decks peppered with rares. 

Ohboy

Yes I'm a big spender.  That must be why I'm a supporter of a more even playing field. There's no way I could possibly be lobbying against my own selfish interests for a better game. 

Is it really that unthinkable? 

By the way, you're only looking at the immediate effect. Within 2 expansions(might even be 1), your Kld advantage will be gone, and with each new expansion, everyone starts leveling off... Especially if they change the core set in future as some people have speculated. 

Uncommons and rares with the occasional mythics? They are challenging if everyone is on that same level. Just ask those who remember the early days of NOP fondly. I assure you decks at that point were mostly like that. 

Thésée

Ohboy said:

Yes I'm a big spender.  That must be why I'm a supporter of a more even playing field. There's no way I could possibly be lobbying against my own selfish interests for a better game. 

Is it really that unthinkable? 

By the way, you're only looking at the immediate effect. Within 2 expansions(might even be 1), your Kld advantage will be gone, and with each new expansion, everyone starts leveling off... Especially if they change the core set in future as some people have speculated. 

Uncommons and rares with the occasional mythics? They are challenging if everyone is on that same level. Just ask those who remember the early days of NOP fondly. I assure you decks at that point were mostly like that. 

Standard will maybe allow newcomers to compete a bit more easily. I think it's a good thing.

I also thing that advocating for good rewards, for mythics rewards in both individual and coalition events to be precise is not necessarily lobbying for selfish interests. It is what used to make the fun of the game. The system had lots of flaws that you underlined often. But for me it was a better game.

Wasn't there really any other solution than leveling the prizes to the ground ? A complete rework of the tier system ? Nerfing some of the most powerful mythics and carefully avoiding to introduce new completly overpowered cards ? (fingers crossed for Amonkhet...)

madwren

Ohboy said:

Sarahschmara said:

Ohboy said:

Sarahschmara said:

Ohboy said:

I think you guys are in for a rude awakening for just how valuable jewels are once we roll into a new expansion where mythics are no longer free, and you've burnt up all your stockpiled crystals. 

But that's exactly the missed point. We were arguing to lift each other up and you wanted to drag us* down. 

*I mean "us" in the greater sense. I lead a top 25 team and have a giant ego so I joined forces with a top ten team to have a safe space to kick those infuriatingly good players that outscore me on a regular basis. So I get a bit confused about which underserved group you keep referring to. We have enthusiastic players from newbies to veterans, old school paper players and kids that were born after ice age. 

And precisely zero of them benefit under the "less is more" reward structure. 

You're surprised that a top 25 coalition is not benefiting from a change that spreads rewards on a thinner gradient? 

I'm advocating that resources be pumped in at the bottom(higher rewards for the lower ranks) and less for the top(trickle down economics with such an illiquid economy?) 

My argument is simple. Top rewardsI'm not dragging you down. But I can see why you might see it that way if you're off to a headstart and want to protect that lead.  

We play for rewards now because rewards are all that's left. Opponents are too easy on average.  But at some point we all went through the journey of facing challenging opponents. We struggled to beat strong decks and enjoyed the struggle. We could get that back. Just give the lower ranks a chance to catch up and give you a decent fight. That's never going to happen if all you care about is staying ahead. 

And this is where I get so frustrated with your arguments. We're obviously headed towards the same destinations, but we have very different opinions on how best to get there. 

I want to make more room on the high-speed train...and you want to force everyone to ride tricycles. 

I would love public high speed trains, but what everyone here(who already has train tickets) is doing is insisting their train go faster, which cannot be done if you want to let everyone make it to catch the train. 

If you share my hope that everyone gets to hit the certain competitive level faster, then you must also recognize that the way to do it fastest is to not let those in the lead run away with it. 

That's the problem, though. The lower tiers aren't going to catch up at this rate, regardless.

If our fast train was going 100mph, and the slow train was going 50mph, the solution to help them narrow the gap would be to reduce the fast train to 80mph and bump the slow train to 70mph.

Instead, they slowed both of them to 30mph.

The fast train still has a tremendous advantage in terms of resources, leveled planeswalkers, format-relevant mythics (such as Origins), and ability to procure higher rewards on a regular basis.  That means that even when KLD/AER rotates out, the fast trainers will still have had an advantage for the entirety of Amonkhet.

babar3355

I get what you are saying @madwren although I am pretty confident a 70 mph train won't catch up with an 80 mph train

The point is, mass nerfs to rewards doesn't level the playing field.  Even in the new standard format  established players can more easily farm PvE events for more packs, likely have better origins cards, probably have better KLD block cards, and might have a hoard of crystals and jewels to deploy.   

The missing element is that a mythic for someone who has 10 mythics is almost always new... a mythic for someone with 100 is almost always a dupe (diminishing returns) So incrementally, the way to help newer members would be to increase rewards across the board, not reduce them.  Fine, scale the prizes so the top gets less and the bottom prizes get more.  Nerfing all of them does not fix the problem.

I think mythics should not be so difficult to get that almost no one has a full set from even one set.  Cards should be attainable... I am still annoyed I never have and maybe never will be able to play with Startled Awake.  If you want to sell something, why not sell the skins, foils, etc and make the cards more attainable.  Then its more about deck building than whether you were lucky enough to win or open deploy and decimator or not.

Phase

There is a spectrum here between "everyone gets the same rewards regardless of performance" and "winner take all". No one here is advocating on one extreme or the other- we're just looking for where to meet in the middle.

If I ran the game I would tend to err on the side of giving good rewards for top performances (and not this trash 60/40/30 + rare split we have now). Competition is good for the game and players need a goal to strive for to keep it interesting. Otherwise we all just go play Fire Emblem. It is also true that the goal you put out there has to actually be attainable. There are ways to work on that, such as rotations and relaxed objectives which are both confirmed in Amonkhet. That should give D3/Hibernium some breathing room to improve rewards without creating a cartel of power players.

madwren

babar3355 said:

I get what you are saying @madwren although I am pretty confident a 70 mph train won't catch up with an 80 mph train

Indeed, you are correct. I didn't choose that number arbitrarily, mate.  Since coalition players and whales (or a combination of the two) are always going to have an advantage of some sorts, I believe you can only NARROW the gap, not actually catch up, and slow the rate at which that advantage is accrued.

By slowing both trains down, however, the gap is not only maintained, but foments frustration and resentment because no one can get what they want.

babar3355

madwren said:

babar3355 said:

I get what you are saying @madwren although I am pretty confident a 70 mph train won't catch up with an 80 mph train

Indeed, you are correct. I didn't choose that number arbitrarily, mate.  Since coalition players and whales (or a combination of the two) are always going to have an advantage of some sorts, I believe you can only NARROW the gap, not actually catch up, and slow the rate at which that advantage is accrued.

By slowing both trains down, however, the gap is not only maintained, but foments frustration and resentment because no one can get what they want.

Yessa (Task)Master. So Sorry.

Laeuftbeidir

babar3355 said:

I get what you are saying @madwren although I am pretty confident a 70 mph train won't catch up with an 80 mph train

The point is, mass nerfs to rewards doesn't level the playing field.

Logic and mathematics..Don't be so rational.
Just believe in the 70mph train!

BTW : I don't think that the nerfs are there to level the playing field. I think they are there to make direct purchases more attractive.

EDHdad

I think the issue is, I am not terrified of a world where everyone has access to every card in the format.  In poker, every player has access to the Queen of Spades.  In Monopoly, everyone has access to Boardwalk and Park Place. 

The argument that 'everyone will have all the same cards and play the same decks' is what already happens in Paper Magic.  A format like Legacy, Modern or Pauper might have 10,000 to 30,000 different cards available to it, but only about 2% or so of those cards see competitive play. 

Right now, in Standard, 50% of the metagame is 4 decks.  It had been like 90% of the metagame was 3 decks, but then they banned some stuff out of those decks (in Puzzle Quest, they can change a card if it's a problem, not that they always do).

In Modern, 50% of the metagame is 9 decks.  In Legacy, 50% of the metagame is 8 decks.  In Pauper, 50% of the metagame is 5 decks.

On an individual card basis, right now in Standard, Fatal Push appears in 55% of decks.  In Modern, Path to Exile is in 32% of decks.  In Pauper, Electrickery is in 53% of decks.  In Legacy, Brainstorm is in 66% of decks. 

All of those cards are commons and uncommons.  Most have been printed several times.  Legacy has over 30,000 cards available, yet the same card appears in 66% of the decks.  Brainstorm is a fixed version of Ancestral Recall, but Ancestral Recall is banned in Legacy, so they play Brainstorm.  Brainstorm isn't available to Modern, Wizards printed a fixed version of Brainstorm called Ponder, but that is too strong for Modern.  Then there was a fixed version of Ponder called Serum Visions, and Serum Visions is played in Modern.

In any given format, people will tend to play either the best deck, or deck which beats that deck.  But the same cards will show up over and over and over.  It's silly for Puzzle Quest to throttle access to cards which people are perfectly willing to buy.  No matter how chintzy the drop rate, people will still play their best threats, their best removal, their best ramp, their best draw / card selection abilities.  Your basic archetypes are still going to be aggro, control, midrange and combo.  And the cards which achieve those ends and the walkers which support those decks are going to be the ones that get played.