Can we move on to 4* standard already?

Phaserhawk

Seriously, isn't it time for the shift. 4* PvP with 3*'s as the 2* reward and 2* the 1* while 5*'s are the progression rewards?  I think we have been at this point for awhile

mpqr7

We need to have a way to win 5*s in progression. Even if it's not often, there has to be a way.

Since they nerfed OML, they must provide us with actual ways beside luck to win other 5*s instead.

mohio

You don't need to bring OML into the fold, he's irrelevant to this issue - it's just a fact of the matter that the game is a "base" 4* game now. All the character releases are 4s and 5s, as opposed to 3s and 4s and it's been that way for over a year now. 

I will say though - I think vaulting the 3* was their first step at going in this direction. They have to accelerate the transition from 1->2->3 before they turn it into a base 4* game. Remember back when they opened up 2* acquisition through PvP drops and it became so much easier to cover your 2* just by playing PvP (LRs especially with all the seed teams)? They will need to do something similar (although probably less drastic) to accelerate 3* acquisition for newer players so they can quickly get to 3* land and start transitioning to 4* where the bulk of the game is played/designed these days.

My guess is this is a harder thing to accomplish than it seems. There are a lot more issues to consider with championing involved. Making 3* acquisition too much easier means you're also giving quite a bit more cp/hp/etc. to players further on in the game who have all of those 3* championed. Similar issues with increasing the 4* cover rate. Not to mention they want to keep the whales happy, and increasing the availability of 5*, essentially negating what they spent so much money trying to get an advantage on, might not sit well with them unless done the right way.

Fightmastermpq

They could move 3* progression rewards further down the PvP rewards table to places more easily obtainable by 2* rosters - this way more players get the rewards without adding champ rewards to vets.

Phaserhawk

mohio said:

You don't need to bring OML into the fold, he's irrelevant to this issue - it's just a fact of the matter that the game is a "base" 4* game now. All the character releases are 4s and 5s, as opposed to 3s and 4s and it's been that way for over a year now. 

I will say though - I think vaulting the 3* was their first step at going in this direction. They have to accelerate the transition from 1->2->3 before they turn it into a base 4* game. Remember back when they opened up 2* acquisition through PvP drops and it became so much easier to cover your 2* just by playing PvP (LRs especially with all the seed teams)? They will need to do something similar (although probably less drastic) to accelerate 3* acquisition for newer players so they can quickly get to 3* land and start transitioning to 4* where the bulk of the game is played/designed these days.

My guess is this is a harder thing to accomplish than it seems. There are a lot more issues to consider with championing involved. Making 3* acquisition too much easier means you're also giving quite a bit more cp/hp/etc. to players further on in the game who have all of those 3* championed. Similar issues with increasing the 4* cover rate. Not to mention they want to keep the whales happy, and increasing the availability of 5*, essentially negating what they spent so much money trying to get an advantage on, might not sit well with them unless done the right way.

More cp ISO is not a bad thing ????

Fightmastermpq

Phaserhawk said:

mohio said:

You don't need to bring OML into the fold, he's irrelevant to this issue - it's just a fact of the matter that the game is a "base" 4* game now. All the character releases are 4s and 5s, as opposed to 3s and 4s and it's been that way for over a year now. 

I will say though - I think vaulting the 3* was their first step at going in this direction. They have to accelerate the transition from 1->2->3 before they turn it into a base 4* game. Remember back when they opened up 2* acquisition through PvP drops and it became so much easier to cover your 2* just by playing PvP (LRs especially with all the seed teams)? They will need to do something similar (although probably less drastic) to accelerate 3* acquisition for newer players so they can quickly get to 3* land and start transitioning to 4* where the bulk of the game is played/designed these days.

My guess is this is a harder thing to accomplish than it seems. There are a lot more issues to consider with championing involved. Making 3* acquisition too much easier means you're also giving quite a bit more cp/hp/etc. to players further on in the game who have all of those 3* championed. Similar issues with increasing the 4* cover rate. Not to mention they want to keep the whales happy, and increasing the availability of 5*, essentially negating what they spent so much money trying to get an advantage on, might not sit well with them unless done the right way.

More cp ISO is not a bad thing ????

It's not a bad thing, it's just a bad suggestion.  They don't just give that stuff away for free.  A good suggestion provides a better experience for the players without upsetting the total rate at which rewards are distributed.  In D3's world rewards not earned get bought, so giving away more rewards = less spending.  A good suggestion is both good for the playerbase but also revenue neutral or positive for D3.

Phaserhawk

Fightmastermpq said:

Phaserhawk said:

mohio said:

You don't need to bring OML into the fold, he's irrelevant to this issue - it's just a fact of the matter that the game is a "base" 4* game now. All the character releases are 4s and 5s, as opposed to 3s and 4s and it's been that way for over a year now. 

I will say though - I think vaulting the 3* was their first step at going in this direction. They have to accelerate the transition from 1->2->3 before they turn it into a base 4* game. Remember back when they opened up 2* acquisition through PvP drops and it became so much easier to cover your 2* just by playing PvP (LRs especially with all the seed teams)? They will need to do something similar (although probably less drastic) to accelerate 3* acquisition for newer players so they can quickly get to 3* land and start transitioning to 4* where the bulk of the game is played/designed these days.

My guess is this is a harder thing to accomplish than it seems. There are a lot more issues to consider with championing involved. Making 3* acquisition too much easier means you're also giving quite a bit more cp/hp/etc. to players further on in the game who have all of those 3* championed. Similar issues with increasing the 4* cover rate. Not to mention they want to keep the whales happy, and increasing the availability of 5*, essentially negating what they spent so much money trying to get an advantage on, might not sit well with them unless done the right way.

More cp ISO is not a bad thing ????

It's not a bad thing, it's just a bad suggestion.  They don't just give that stuff away for free.  A good suggestion provides a better experience for the players without upsetting the total rate at which rewards are distributed.  In D3's world rewards not earned get bought, so giving away more rewards = less spending.  A good suggestion is both good for the playerbase but also revenue neutral or positive for D3.

I don't disagree however I think we're at the point where the ISO and cp flow has now been out stripped  by characters again and is in definite need of another increase 

Fightmastermpq

Phaserhawk said:

Fightmastermpq said:

Phaserhawk said:

mohio said:

You don't need to bring OML into the fold, he's irrelevant to this issue - it's just a fact of the matter that the game is a "base" 4* game now. All the character releases are 4s and 5s, as opposed to 3s and 4s and it's been that way for over a year now. 

I will say though - I think vaulting the 3* was their first step at going in this direction. They have to accelerate the transition from 1->2->3 before they turn it into a base 4* game. Remember back when they opened up 2* acquisition through PvP drops and it became so much easier to cover your 2* just by playing PvP (LRs especially with all the seed teams)? They will need to do something similar (although probably less drastic) to accelerate 3* acquisition for newer players so they can quickly get to 3* land and start transitioning to 4* where the bulk of the game is played/designed these days.

My guess is this is a harder thing to accomplish than it seems. There are a lot more issues to consider with championing involved. Making 3* acquisition too much easier means you're also giving quite a bit more cp/hp/etc. to players further on in the game who have all of those 3* championed. Similar issues with increasing the 4* cover rate. Not to mention they want to keep the whales happy, and increasing the availability of 5*, essentially negating what they spent so much money trying to get an advantage on, might not sit well with them unless done the right way.

More cp ISO is not a bad thing ????

It's not a bad thing, it's just a bad suggestion.  They don't just give that stuff away for free.  A good suggestion provides a better experience for the players without upsetting the total rate at which rewards are distributed.  In D3's world rewards not earned get bought, so giving away more rewards = less spending.  A good suggestion is both good for the playerbase but also revenue neutral or positive for D3.

I don't disagree however I think we're at the point where the ISO and cp flow has now been out stripped  by characters again and is in definite need of another increase 

I disagree on ISO flow.  I can champ a 5* from 255 in less than 2 weeks.  Eventually I'll catch up and have ISO with nothing to spend it on.  If you want more ISO then play more.

Consequently the more you play the more 2* covers you earn, granting champ levels and rewards....including CP.  This is not a meaningful amount of CP though and so I do agree that they should have more opportunities to consistently earn CP through continued play.

Phaserhawk

Fightmastermpq said:

Phaserhawk said:

Fightmastermpq said:

Phaserhawk said:

mohio said:

You don't need to bring OML into the fold, he's irrelevant to this issue - it's just a fact of the matter that the game is a "base" 4* game now. All the character releases are 4s and 5s, as opposed to 3s and 4s and it's been that way for over a year now. 

I will say though - I think vaulting the 3* was their first step at going in this direction. They have to accelerate the transition from 1->2->3 before they turn it into a base 4* game. Remember back when they opened up 2* acquisition through PvP drops and it became so much easier to cover your 2* just by playing PvP (LRs especially with all the seed teams)? They will need to do something similar (although probably less drastic) to accelerate 3* acquisition for newer players so they can quickly get to 3* land and start transitioning to 4* where the bulk of the game is played/designed these days.

My guess is this is a harder thing to accomplish than it seems. There are a lot more issues to consider with championing involved. Making 3* acquisition too much easier means you're also giving quite a bit more cp/hp/etc. to players further on in the game who have all of those 3* championed. Similar issues with increasing the 4* cover rate. Not to mention they want to keep the whales happy, and increasing the availability of 5*, essentially negating what they spent so much money trying to get an advantage on, might not sit well with them unless done the right way.

More cp ISO is not a bad thing ????

It's not a bad thing, it's just a bad suggestion.  They don't just give that stuff away for free.  A good suggestion provides a better experience for the players without upsetting the total rate at which rewards are distributed.  In D3's world rewards not earned get bought, so giving away more rewards = less spending.  A good suggestion is both good for the playerbase but also revenue neutral or positive for D3.

I don't disagree however I think we're at the point where the ISO and cp flow has now been out stripped  by characters again and is in definite need of another increase 

I disagree on ISO flow.  I can champ a 5* from 255 in less than 2 weeks.  Eventually I'll catch up and have ISO with nothing to spend it on.  If you want more ISO then play more.

Consequently the more you play the more 2* covers you earn, granting champ levels and rewards....including CP.  This is not a meaningful amount of CP though and so I do agree that they should have more opportunities to consistently earn CP through continued play.

How much do you play to possibly generate that much ISO?

Fightmastermpq

I typically spend 2 hours on PvE every day, and an hour in PvP about every other day.  Plus 5-10 minutes on DDQ or however long that takes.

I also place well in both PvE and PvP, individual and alliance.  Oh, and I'm not on Steam so I get intercepts.  And I have VIP.

Jaedenkaal

Fightmastermpq said:

It's not a bad thing, it's just a bad suggestion.  They don't just give that stuff away for free.  A good suggestion provides a better experience for the players without upsetting the total rate at which rewards are distributed.  In D3's world rewards not earned get bought, so giving away more rewards = less spending.  A good suggestion is both good for the playerbase but also revenue neutral or positive for D3.

I suspect this is pretty close to the truth, and I would not expect the game to move to a "common 4* and rare-but-non-random 5* rewards" structure until there is also another tier of play above that (ie 6*s).

For reference, there were around 18 4*s released by the time Silver Surfer was launched. I guess we're pretty close to that number of 5*s now. 

Ryudoz

It's still a little baffling that there is such a tight squeeze on how 4* are dolled out. Behemoth Burrito was a fantastic opportunity to introduce a TBE-style cover prize and they gave us less than that. Sure it ever so slightly accelerates gathering of non-vaulted 4's, but given that so many of them ARE, there needs to be a way to award older 4's than just PVE progression, given that there are 4* essential nodes. 

Fightmastermpq

Ryudoz said:

It's still a little baffling that there is such a tight squeeze on how 4* are dolled out. Behemoth Burrito was a fantastic opportunity to introduce a TBE-style cover prize and they gave us less than that. Sure it ever so slightly accelerates gathering of non-vaulted 4's, but given that so many of them ARE, there needs to be a way to award older 4's than just PVE progression, given that there are 4* essential nodes. 

They have PvE Placement, PvP Progression, PvP Placement, and Bonus Heroes as well.  So you can still get them, just not like you could before.

n25philly

What I don't get on this issue is that in the past they have done a hybrid with deadpool where you could play as the 3* or the 4*, why not do them in pairs like that where you get your choice.  Or maybe tie them in the clearance levels.  I can understand not wanting to go too all 4* for those that are not there, but why they can't put something together for the people that are is just one of many baffling things about this game

n25philly

Fightmastermpq said:

Ryudoz said:

It's still a little baffling that there is such a tight squeeze on how 4* are dolled out. Behemoth Burrito was a fantastic opportunity to introduce a TBE-style cover prize and they gave us less than that. Sure it ever so slightly accelerates gathering of non-vaulted 4's, but given that so many of them ARE, there needs to be a way to award older 4's than just PVE progression, given that there are 4* essential nodes. 

They have PvE Placement, PvP Progression, PvP Placement, and Bonus Heroes as well.  So you can still get them, just not like you could before.

All wonderful for those of us that never get the first 3 

MarkersMake

Fightmastermpq said:

I typically spend 2 hours on PvE every day, and an hour in PvP about every other day.  Plus 5-10 minutes on DDQ or however long that takes.

I also place well in both PvE and PvP, individual and alliance.  Oh, and I'm not on Steam so I get intercepts.  And I have VIP.

Just as a point of reference, could you give us your approximate roster stage right now?

It doesn't do ISO-starved 3*-4* transitioners any good to say they can earn enough ISO for their needs in 2 hours a day if it takes their roster 5 hours a day to chew through that same amount of content. 

Fightmastermpq

MarkersMake said:

Fightmastermpq said:

I typically spend 2 hours on PvE every day, and an hour in PvP about every other day.  Plus 5-10 minutes on DDQ or however long that takes.

I also place well in both PvE and PvP, individual and alliance.  Oh, and I'm not on Steam so I get intercepts.  And I have VIP.

Just as a point of reference, could you give us your approximate roster stage right now?

It doesn't do ISO-starved 3*-4* transitioners any good to say they can earn enough ISO for their needs in 2 hours a day if it takes their roster 5 hours a day to chew through that same amount of content. 

I'm a 5* player.

MarkersMake

I thought so, based on your past posts - just wanted to confirm. 

It would be interesting to see get a read on how long it takes for a specific task (eg 4 clears of PvE nodes) vs.  roster strength. I know 5* scaling is borked (and that's something that needs fixing), but it seems to take much less time to clear despite that. 

Ryudoz

Fightmastermpq said:

Ryudoz said:

It's still a little baffling that there is such a tight squeeze on how 4* are dolled out. Behemoth Burrito was a fantastic opportunity to introduce a TBE-style cover prize and they gave us less than that. Sure it ever so slightly accelerates gathering of non-vaulted 4's, but given that so many of them ARE, there needs to be a way to award older 4's than just PVE progression, given that there are 4* essential nodes. 

They have PvE Placement, PvP Progression, PvP Placement, and Bonus Heroes as well.  So you can still get them, just not like you could before.

PVE placement is a joke. Even at CL8 there covers are only going to a small subset of the community. Same with PVP, particularly since you have to pay to make placement (unless you already have a crazy amount of HP to shield hop). And bonus heroes is not a reliable or sustainable way to cover/champion other characters in a way that the current 3* model supports. 

I get it, the company line is that 4* are not supposed to be as common as 3*. But given the increasing reliance on 4* in the current meta as the tier itself is continuing to expand. I mean, is it really so horrible to offer a single 4* cover as a reward on a more regular basis than 10 days (going by BB CP)? By actually offering the cover as a reward doesn't diminish the effectivemess of the 5 day Crash because it would eliminate the opportunity for a 5*. Granted a CP -> cover swap also reduces that chance for a 5* but at the cost of giving out 9 more 4* covers. 

I'm sure that I'm the only one who has a problem with the 4* availability, you're right. Sorry to intrude.

Fightmastermpq

MarkersMake said:

I thought so, based on your past posts - just wanted to confirm. 

It would be interesting to see get a read on how long it takes for a specific task (eg 4 clears of PvE nodes) vs.  roster strength. I know 5* scaling is borked (and that's something that needs fixing), but it seems to take much less time to clear despite that. 

3* and 4* rosters with the right boosted characters regularly finish PvE faster than me...under an hour per grind.

MarkersMake

Hmmm.. I'm a 3*/4* transitioner (three 4* champs atm), and I'm nowhere close to an hour per clear . Two hours is a minimum typically, even using boosted characters. 

I must be using the wrong characters...