Can we trust Demiurge and some other questions.

whitecat31

This is NOT a change to a character question, this has to do with a trust in the over all product line. So please do not move

Demiurge in the past said that the 5 stars were supposed to be strong with just a few covers.

"A: 5-Star characters will be usable as soon as you earn them. Where 3 and 4-Stars need 8 to 10 covers before they match the power of a maxed 2-Star or 3-Star, 5-Star characters need only a few covers to match the power of a maxed 4-Star."

They also knew that they would be very special

"Miles - Yeah, and because they're going to be very rare, we've made them a lot more valuable."

They also knew it would take a long time for most people to level a 5 star character.

In fact they were proud of that long time feature.

“With the Champions update, it should be increasingly clear to players that we've prioritized the long term health of Marvel Puzzle Quest by giving players more to strive for, and longer term goals.

We want to extend the life of Marvel Puzzle Quest by letting players earn rewards rather than buying them directly."

Ok so you gives us "White Whales" to chase after. It now appears, if too many people catch this White whale the people will be punished for it, because, now we have this contradiction/punishment message, indicating a change to five stars.

"Old Man Logan, as one of our first 5-stars and one of our first characters with multiple sets of powers, is stronger and significantly more useful than most other options for one’s team, even when he’s at low covers. Over 10% of all battles won include an Old Man Logan on the player’s team. This is higher than the win or play rate of any other character in the game even when those characters are Powered-Up. We believe that his ubiquity and power is reducing options for team composition - Old Man Logan is significantly better even than other 5-stars at low covers, and he’s pushing out otherwise viable 4-star and 5-star options because he warrants a permanent place on the team.

To that end, Old Man Logan will be our first major rebalance to decrease power since the start of our regular season rebalances. We hope that this change to Old Man Logan will be sufficient and that we can return to the rebalances that increase power we’ve been doing. We’ll continue to monitor how the metagame and team composition evolves - if you have feedback on character rebalances, such as this one, please let us know!."

So here are some questions.

So should we trust Demiurge and their product?

You created a 5 star character that was working as intended.  You give us an empty stat that appears to be useful indicating that it is a problem, even though it is working as intended. But are those stats a real problem and an indicator of the complete picture? Does it include seed teams and easy level PVE fights? 

Can you give us the stats that actually matter like PVP stats, and roster choices? 

Can you gives us the stats of the overall drop rate since 5 stars came out, of what covers have appeared the most?

Does this change pay attention to the fact that the percentages in the beginning to get silver surfer was only 5%, while Logan had a higher percentage?  

Does it pay attention that your reworking of Silver Surfer and 5 star cap came well after the percentages to get those characters had decreased and did you recognize those changes were underwhelming?

Does it take in an account Championed 5 star characters and the power difference? 

Does it pay attention to RNG (Random Number Generation) to get covers?  

Does it take in affect your MMR (match making rating) which forces players to use their best character to survive and progress, which would of course make a player invest in their best tool?  

Does it pay attention to the fact that Old Man Logan is far from the best 5 star character in the top tier, and that by weakening him, you create an unbalance in the top tier PVP system that nobody on your dev team understands or plays?

Does it pay attention to the person who is transitioning from 4 star to 5 star, most likely has most of his covers in OML and will be crippled because of this?

Your customers invest time, effort, and money into this game. Do you think your customers should see those stats? 

Do you think we deserve transparency? Do you think we deserve respect?  Do you think your compensation system is adequate?  Do you think your customer base likes your compensation system? Do you think your customers can trust your product anymore to invest money, when you just basically lied to your customers and destroyed the end game?

Can you ensure us that if a player invests hundreds to thousands of dollars into a character this type of power decrease won't happen again?

Do you care if this bothers your customer base and they move on to another game because of it?

My guess is that the answer to all these questions is NO, but I would love to be proved wrong.

Sykobanana

Brilliantly put

brisashi

No we can not.

It is so blatantly and insultingly obvious that the changes to OML are to prevent him from being a damage sponge that essentially breaks the game and dries up the market for many players to buy health packs. Yet they want to try and tell us that it is because he is overpowered, something that any veteran player and they themselves know is not true.

Noobulator

Trust them with your life as much as you would Putin, Trump, Assad, and Lil Kim.

smkspy

Used car salesmen. They'll say whatever you want to hear if that means a buy on the lemon of the day that is currently on the lot.

JVReal

If this is how my skip-tax dollars are used... impeach ... somebody... (don't we get a say on how our skip-tax dollars are spent?)

G25

All valid points. 
Devs,
Care to answer any of his questions please?

JablesMc

Normally, I would never do this, but..

Edit: @babinro is absolutely correct. See two posts down.

babinro

Here's the thing....even if they had answers to every single one of your questions it wouldn't actually CHANGE their conclusions.   They made the decision to nerf OML using whatever factors they felt mattered the most.  I doubt the post they provided us covered every single thing considered either, it was probably just used to help easily represent why the decision was made in an easily digestible manor.

With regards to your main question:   Can we TRUST Demiurge? 

Whether this is a yes or no is up to you as an individual.  The fact of the matter is that we've had at least a dozen character changes since this game has gone live.   Many of those changes have been nerfs and many of those changes impacted highly played characters at the upper tier of the game at that time.

This isn't a brand new practice in general so it should come as no surprise that the possibility of a 5* nerf would happen some day (or will continue to happen in the future for that matter).

I 'lived' through the Mags, Sentry, XF, and Thor nerfs during my years here so I'm no stranger to this stuff.  If I didn't trust the company I would have left during any one of those nerfs in the past.  However, I actually do trust Demiurge to do what THEY feel is right for the game even when I don't agree with it. 

For the record I've been using OML/Phx as my workhorse duo since around Dec 2015 give or take.  I used OML quite a bit today post nerf and I can say that he is still a great 5* to have on your roster.  The nerf hasn't impacted his ability to play PvE for days without health packs.  I can't speak on his impact in pvp yet but given what I've seen so far I have no reason to believe that OML/Phx will no longer be a viable/semi competitive duo.  

I don't actually agree with the OML nerf.  I think think nerfing a mid-tier borderline upper tier 5* character who can't be abused for winfinite is a misguided decision.  It would be like nerfing Spider-Gwen in 4* tier tomorrow or nerfing 3* Thor tomorrow.   I also think the compensation for those who choose to sell is inadequate given the cost/time investment at that tier is an attempt to be generous but is in reality insulting.  Compensation via tokens through an RNG system is NOT the answer here especially since duplicate classics earned this way go to waste.  Remove the RNG and let players decide what they want...that alone to me would feel fair (even though the return is only half the covers earned) I think it would be reasonable.

Enough rambling, in conclusion I don't agree with all the choices made here but I don't think Demiurge did anything that should cause people to lose trust in them.  This is following past precedence and anyone who is upset and chooses to stick around has to be aware that this will be possible again in the future.

StarScream

I would not trust them to make toast because they simply do not care. 

STOPTHIS

I trust them to do what's best for their bottom line, but I don't trust that they actually play and understand their game from a player prospective. The last few weeks have been a series of bad changes that negatively impact players. The only reaction from devs seems to be more bad choices. 

Jarvind

babinro said:

 It would be like nerfing Spider-Gwen in 4* tier tomorrow or nerfing 3* Thor tomorrow.

Or like nerfing Carnage into worthlessness for no reason. Ah, wait.

krak0

No you can't trust them they flip flop decisions. And you won't hear from them about anything negative. I guess this is why they stoped doing developer commentary videos that way if they wanted to change their minds about anything it would be easier.

EvertonSte

outstanding post, brilliantly written,I don't think the people that matter will read it but thank you

irwando

Short answer: no.  

This is why I refuse to give them money.  No trust that they'll actually fix bugs.  No trust in their testing abilities.  No trust they won't screw up a character later.  No trust in the designs they have (like a PvP system that lies about how many points you'll earn).  

broll

At this point I wouldn't trust them with a fork unless there was cork on it...

optimus2861

Players of freemium games should know by now that sinking considerable $$$ into them carries with it a not-insignificant risk that the items / characters / powers you purchase with the game's in-game currency can be altered by the game developer at any time for any reason with compensation decided solely at the whims of the developer.

That's precisely why you are never able to purchase the items directly but must purchase the in-game currency. That way the developer has the legal position that you got exactly what you paid for, namely said in-game currency, if you come screaming to them that you demand a refund. You may have the recourse of going to Google / Apple / your CC company and getting a $$$ refund that way, but that usually carries a high risk of incurring a permanent ban from the game.

Always make in-game purchases with your eyes wide open, and only spend what $$$ you can afford to completely write off, i.e. wholly disposable income.

Trust Deimurge? No. And you shouldn't trust any other freemium developer, either. They are what they are. The industry is what it is.

Polares

babinro said:

Here's the thing....even if they had answers to every single one of your questions it wouldn't actually CHANGE their conclusions.   They made the decision to nerf OML using whatever factors they felt mattered the most.  I doubt the post they provided us covered every single thing considered either, it was probably just used to help easily represent why the decision was made in an easily digestible manor.

With regards to your main question:   Can we TRUST Demiurge? 

Whether this is a yes or no is up to you as an individual.  The fact of the matter is that we've had at least a dozen character changes since this game has gone live.   Many of those changes have been nerfs and many of those changes impacted highly played characters at the upper tier of the game at that time.

This isn't a brand new practice in general so it should come as no surprise that the possibility of a 5* nerf would happen some day (or will continue to happen in the future for that matter).

I 'lived' through the Mags, Sentry, XF, and Thor nerfs during my years here so I'm no stranger to this stuff.  If I didn't trust the company I would have left during any one of those nerfs in the past.  However, I actually do trust Demiurge to do what THEY feel is right for the game even when I don't agree with it. 

For the record I've been using OML/Phx as my workhorse duo since around Dec 2015 give or take.  I used OML quite a bit today post nerf and I can say that he is still a great 5* to have on your roster.  The nerf hasn't impacted his ability to play PvE for days without health packs.  I can't speak on his impact in pvp yet but given what I've seen so far I have no reason to believe that OML/Phx will no longer be a viable/semi competitive duo.  

I don't actually agree with the OML nerf.  I think think nerfing a mid-tier borderline upper tier 5* character who can't be abused for winfinite is a misguided decision.  It would be like nerfing Spider-Gwen in 4* tier tomorrow or nerfing 3* Thor tomorrow.   I also think the compensation for those who choose to sell is inadequate given the cost/time investment at that tier is an attempt to be generous but is in reality insulting.  Compensation via tokens through an RNG system is NOT the answer here especially since duplicate classics earned this way go to waste.  Remove the RNG and let players decide what they want...that alone to me would feel fair (even though the return is only half the covers earned) I think it would be reasonable.

Enough rambling, in conclusion I don't agree with all the choices made here but I don't think Demiurge did anything that should cause people to lose trust in them.  This is following past precedence and anyone who is upset and chooses to stick around has to be aware that this will be possible again in the future.

I mostly agree with your post, but there are some very big points that this time around makes me doubt Devs much more.

I also suffered the nerfing of Ragnarok, Thorverine, Spidey, Magneto, Sentry, Xforce/4hor when they were at the peak of their power and it changed the meta completely and forced me to get new chars, etc. But as hard as those nerfs were, any of those characters were much easier to obtain than any 5, and I think this is why everybody was hoping that no 5 would ever be nerfed. 5s can just be obtained by luck (after a lot of work and money). And this is a big difference with the other cases.

Another big difference is that you can more or less 'demonstrate' that all those chars were broken for their tier, but this time around OML is not, he was barely top tier (he was not top 5 for me). He was nerfed because he was popular and because he was saving a lot of health packs, which is also another big difference with the other cases.

dokiy

More so than the OML nerf (which doesn't really affect me because he's still sitting at 5/0/2 all this time later) is that 5 stars are nowhere close to being what was promised. A few covers to match the power of a maxed four star? Ha! That was over-selling them big time. Clearly 5 star characters were never going to be as powerful as promised. 

Darknes21

Trust them? Do u really think they care about you? Hahahahahaha...all they care about is the money they make off you. £#€< them! 

Qubort

Do you think we deserve transparency?  Nope

Do you think we deserve respect?  Muahahahaha

Do you think your compensation system is adequate? If anything, too generous.

Do you think your customer base likes your compensation system? Don't care

Do you care if this bothers your customer base and they move on to another game because of it? Buy healthpacks!!! On SALE now